Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

[mljdeckard]

I actually have the full family of all holsters the U.S. Army has used with the 1911, and I have carried it condition 1 in all of them.

 

[Oro]

Find an official Army document that says Condition 2 carry is approved.

That's not what you asked for. You asked the prior poster to document that someone did it. It was done. And the Army trained soldiers in snap shooting from condition 2 - and I provided the precise docutment and pub. date. It doesn't say they should carry it that way. But it trains them to shoot it from that condition. It's inconsistent, but does not instruct to carry that way.

 

[christcorp]

I actually have the full family of all holsters the U.S. Army has used with the 1911, and I have carried it condition 1 in all of them.

Exactly. And there's quite a difference in carrying such a weapon condition 1 in a military style holster than in a concealed manner. I've never said that a person shouldn't carry a 1911 cocked and locked. Feel free to carry it anyway you like. I happen to have absolutely no problem carrying it with the hammer down. I'm simply commenting that while people are so eager to point out that they "think" the weapon was designed to be carried in condition 1; that it was ALSO designed to be carried in a holster designed on the outside with the weapon covered. And little to no chance of having the safety clicked off like it can in a concealed carry situation. But I guess that's not a possibility in some people's minds.

But I think that's where the big controversy comes into play. Different people carry the 1911 in many different ways. And for some, condition 1 is not a problem. For others, condition 1 isn't the best way to carry it based on the way they are holstering the weapon. When I carried my full size Springfield, I carried it open carry with a thumb strap that went between the hammer and the firing pin. Condition 1 was the norm. When I carried my commander concealed, I carried it condition 2. IWB did at times, during practice, manage to disengage the thumb safety while withdrawing the weapon. So for me, when carrying it in such a manner, I preferred carrying it in condition 2. Placing a 1911 in condition 2 is not something you do 2,3,4 times a day. It's something you do once in a blue moon. I'd do it at the range, when I was done shooting and cleaning it; at which time in went back in my holster. The only other time might be if for some reason I needed to clear the weapon. Which is rare to never. So, carrying the weapon in condition 2 is perfectly safe. And it's perfectly safe to lower the hammer on the weapon. And no, the firing pin isn't resting on the primer of a live round. Not with an inertia style firing pin.

But my comment was mainly to point out that it's convenient that many who want to argue that the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY to carry a 1911 is condition 1; and that it was intended to be carried that way. Yet, they don't mention that the style of carry and the holsters designed for the weapon were also conducive to carrying it in condition 1. My point is: Carry the gun any way you want to. Condition 1,2, or 3. And just like you learned how to properly carry, shoot, clear, clean, and overall handle the weapon; the same training is applied to putting the weapon into condition 2 status. And once there, there is absolutely no chance of the weapon firing unintended. In other words, people shouldn't be scared of carrying in condition 2. The condition is obviously safer than condition 1. Even the army manuals mention that when imminent danger is no longer a problem, to clear the weapon and bring it back to condition 3. The only part dangerous, is for those who don't know how to handle a weapon and can't put it in condition 2 properly.

 

[David E]

And am I serious about two fingers on your primary gun hand being fractured and unusuable for firearms usage? You've never broken a couple of fingers in a car door, or jammed them worthless playing basketball? Or never burned yourself on a stove?

I thought you meant seconds before or during the gunfight.

If it happens prior to one, then you have the ability to choose a different carry gun, if necessary.

In my case, I have a left handed set-up ready to go. You ?

 

[David E]

There are some key points that the champions of Condition 2 and 3 carry are not addressing.

For example, you hear a noise downstairs. It's not enough to call the cops, but it's enough for you to check out for your own peace of mind.

Your chosen gun is a 1911. If in Condition 3, do you chamber one before investigating? If Condition 2, do you cock the hammer? In either case, you're walking around with a loaded and cocked gun with no safety applied.

Or do you apply the safety? You know, the one you never apply in practice or use?

Or do the Condition 2 guys investigate the noise with the hammer down, but thumb on the hammer, ready to cock it immediately? If so, how fast can you reacquire your firing grip?

None of these issues are a concern for a 1911 carried Condition One.

 

[Rexster]

I have not tried to read all of the responses, so I am only replying to the OP, and am likely to say what others have said. Quite simply, sweeping the 1911's safety lever downward is a natural, uncomplicated movement, that can be done smoothly, while holding the pistol in a firing grip, and smooth equals fast and sure. Cocking the hammer of most autos is a rather clumsy, complicated movement, often difficult to do while holding the pistol in a firing grip, which means slower and unsure. Moreover, after chambering a round, the hammer IS cocked, and DECOCKING A 1911, while not all that difficult under calm conditions, can be subject to fumbling when things are not so calm, or one is preoccupied. Fumbling the decock can result in an unintended discharge, which is an undesirable event, at best.

FWIW, I find cocking the hammer of a single-action sixgun quite natural. I find cocking the hammer of a SIG P229 to be fairly smooth and sure, especially with my more dextrous left hand, But, cocking a 1911 hammer is not so smooth.

 

[christcorp]

There are some key points that the champions of Condition 2 and 3 carry are not addressing.

For example, you hear a noise downstairs. It's not enough to call the cops, but it's enough for you to check out for your own peace of mind.

Your chosen gun is a 1911. If in Condition 3, do you chamber one before investigating? If Condition 2, do you cock the hammer? In either case, you're walking around with a loaded and cocked gun with no safety applied.

Or do you apply the safety? You know, the one you never apply in practice or use?

Or do the Condition 2 guys investigate the noise with the hammer down, but thumb on the hammer, ready to cock it immediately? If so, how fast can you reacquire your firing grip?

None of these issues are a concern for a 1911 carried Condition One.

With that kind of "LOGIC", if that's what you call it; you've just made the point for everyone to have a SigSauer P220 instead of a 1911A1. Totally illogical. Are you saying then that a double action, like the P220, is a better choice than a 1911; because it incorporated the best of both condition 1 and 2?

 

[Frankh]

I’ve carried condition 2 for at least 10 years without a problem. I have however seen the light and for the last year or so carried cocked and locked. I don’t really care what anyone says, releasing a hammer under tension onto a live round is looking for s**t. No matter how many times you’ve done it without a problem, the day will come when that hammer slips from under you thumb or from between your fingers.
Yes it can be done, but there is a reason they call them accidental discharges.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I simply find it easier to wipe off a safety as the gun clears my body and comes up on target than to cock a hammer.

 

[EddieNFL]

No one on the Pro Condition-1 side of the isle seems to mention that as a military weapon, the 1911 was NEVER INTENDED to be carried concealed. And that it WAS INTENDED to be carried in a holster that covered the hammer and thumb safety. And when carried this way, OWB, flap type holster; then it is almost impossible for there to be any interference with the weapon. But in this conversation, I'll bet anyone here a pay check that most don't carry the 1911 in such a holster.

You certainly have the choice to holster you like. I encourage you to use the flap style holster.

I couldn't care less what JMB or the army intended. Occasionally, thinking outside the box is a good thing.

 

[EddieNFL]

I simply find it easier to wipe off a safety as the gun clears my body and comes up on target than to cock a hammer.

IMO finding the safety with the thumb is a part of securing a proper grip and is, arguably, the simplest motion involved with firing a 1911. If a person can't learn this with minimal training, the 1911 probably isn't for him.

 

[Kleanbore]

IMO finding the safety with the thumb is a part of securing a proper grip and is, arguably, the simplest motion involved with firing a 1911. If a person can't learn this with minimal training, the 1911 probably isn't for him.

That works for me.

My Smith & Wesson M&P compact has a safety (I wish it weren't ambidextrous so I could add a CT grip), and personally, I wouldn't have one without it.

I got the thing before I finally accepted the idea of "Condition 1" carry with a 1911 and because I wasn't sure about a small .45, but what I have found is a higher likelihood of shots on target with the 1911 due to the better trigger pull. Again, that's personal.

 

[David E]

With that kind of "LOGIC", if that's what you call it; you've just made the point for everyone to have a SigSauer P220 instead of a 1911A1.

If you read what I actually wrote, you wouldn't have jumped to this conclusion. Evenso, a point I've made previously is that if one is NOT comfortable with Condition One, then a different firearm, such as a 220,(chamber loaded) would be a better choice than carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 or 3 for serious purposes.

Totally illogical.

Not when you read the words written.

Are you saying then that a double action, like the P220, is a better choice than a 1911; because it incorporated the best of both condition 1 and 2?

<sigh> Nooooo, I'm saying that if you're not comfortable carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, then choose a different platform (carried chamber loaded) that you ARE comfortable with.

 

[christcorp]

Well; I feel equally comfortable carrying my Sig P220 or my 1911 in condition 2. No problem here. But I do agree with you that if a person paranoid about carrying a 1911 in condition 1; and their sweating at the thought of putting a 1911 in condition 2 because they mistakenly think the gun is going to blow their foot off; then they are better off with a gun with a decocker. It will give them peace of mind.

FWIW; I didn't change my primary winter carry gun from the 1911 to the Sig P220 because of any safety issue. I changed simply because "In My opinion, FOR ME", the P220 is a better and higher quality gun. I still love my Spingfield Armory 1911A1 circa 1985. I just think the W. German P220 circa 1989 is a better gun.

 

[DougDubya]

I thought you meant seconds before or during the gunfight.

If it happens prior to one, then you have the ability to choose a different carry gun, if necessary.

In my case, I have a left handed set-up ready to go. You ?

There was the question of why someone would carry in Condition 2.

I was trying to answer that. It's a mental exercise. I'm a WRITER and part of being a writer is "WHAT IF" games. If I have the time to choose, I'm not limited to 1911's, but love Commander XSE's which come naturally with southpaw friendly levers, the Springfield Loaded pistols and the EMP, but I've been known to crank around with Beretta 92FS', P226's, Walther PPK's, Springfield XD's, and Smith and Wesson revolvers.

I don't shave down the right-hand friendly levers on any firearm I have with ambis, and never believed in ambidextrous slide stops or reversible magazine buttons for 1911's. However, there are a lot of purpose-built guns - the P2000, the S&W M&P, the P250 that have great ambi-slide stops. The only reason I can see for a reversible magazine drop is so that you right-handers can enjoy the swiftness and trigger-finger occupying joy of how we southpaws drop our mags. Browning put the button on the wrong side.

(I know, I blasphemed.)

With that kind of "LOGIC", if that's what you call it; you've just made the point for everyone to have a SigSauer P220 instead of a 1911A1. Totally illogical. Are you saying then that a double action, like the P220, is a better choice than a 1911; because it incorporated the best of both condition 1 and 2?

No, but what is being said is that the P220 has one good condition to carry it in, and there's no need to fuss with all this different stuff of 1911 conditions (even though locked and cocked IS the best).

'sides, a box stock P220 would be my choice over a box stock 1911.

 

[David E]

Well; I feel equally comfortable carrying my Sig P220 or my 1911 in condition 2.

I'm surprised you didn't say you were "equally fast" with both guns !

 

[David E]

There was the question of why someone would carry in Condition 2.

The reasons you cited are not good reasons to carry a 1911 in Condition 2. Nearly everyone that carries a 1911 in Condition 2 do so because they don't fully understand the 1911. (they, of course, will argue that point)

I was trying to answer that. It's a mental exercise. I'm a WRITER and part of being a writer is "WHAT IF" games.

I understand "what if" games. But sometimes, they get so moronic as to be ludicrous.

 

[DougDubya]

The reasons you cited are not good reasons to carry a 1911 in Condition 2. Nearly everyone that carries a 1911 in Condition 2 do so because they don't fully understand the 1911. (they, of course, will argue that point)

It took a while, because I'd read a ton of Jerry Ahern as a kid, and Condition 1 was never in his world view. Luckily, I've gotten better.

I understand "what if" games. But sometimes, they get so moronic as to be ludicrous.

No. Just the vehemence over "you're wrong!" "no you are!"

'course this is someone who uses his imagination for a living. YMMV

 

[David E]

Here's what I have observed: Some people play "what if" to the point of idiocy. They ultimately land on a ridiculous "conclusion" that they then prepare for.

I call it "Preparing for the possible while ignoring the probable."

As far as Ahern goes, I like him better since he stopped pointing the gun straight into the camera at every opportunity.

 

[tipoc]

The question under discussion is not condition one versus condition 2 or 3. Neither is it which condition is "best". The question is do you know the 1911 or not? Are you comfortable with the gun or not?

If the answer is yes. Then all three methods are available to you based on the situation and conditions. As those conditions change the 1911 is versatile enough to adapt. Folks who want to know the 1911 should learn all three methods and know that they are available. Conditions one, two and three have been a part of the 1911s manual of arms from it's inception (this has been amply demonstrated in this thread and elsewhere) and there is no useful reason to eliminate two of them from the picture and leave yourself with a less versatile weapon. The same is true of the BHP.

If a person is uncomfortable with lowering the hammer on a live round another type gun may be best. May be best to avoid revolvers and leverguns as well.

tipoc

 

[Nasty Ned]

I carry cocked and locked and always will. If you feel you must lower the hammer, the only safe way is to point the pistol in a safe direction, place your off thumb under the hammer, press the trigger and slowly roll your thumb up and out from under the hammer. I learned to do this due to a ad I had. Easy and safe. I am probably alive today because of my always carrying in condition one.

 

[christcorp]

Here's what I have observed: Some people play "what if" to the point of idiocy. They ultimately land on a ridiculous "conclusion" that they then prepare for.

David; if you weren't so hypocritical, you'd be funny. Go back and read all your "WHAT IFs". You've come up with every scenario just to tell anyone who doesn't carry their 1911A1 in condition 1 that they are wrong, and you are right. Please!!!!

And it would be stupid; yes; to imply that I would say that I can shoot my P220 equally as fast as my 1911. It's obvious that the P220 is multitudes faster. When you don't have any mechanical issues to deal with, it is faster. But I know exactly what you were getting at. And YES; I CAN cock the hammer back on the 1911 from condition 2, just as fast as taking off the thumb safety. But see; you don't want to hear that. You believe in the whole "It was designed for ....." crap. Well, southpaws SHOULDN'T have to go out and buy and have put on, ambi safeties. So while the magazine release is actually EASIER for a southpaw, the thumb safety isn't.

But I regress. That isn't why I carry the 1911 in condition 2. I carry it in condition 2, because of the way I carry/holster my 1911. It is SAFER in condition 2 when carrying it IWB concealed. Yes, I've been told first hand, that when concealed in tight clothing, that sometimes the safety has in fact clicked down while they were retrieving the weapon from the holster. But see; you don't want to hear that either. Yet, you don't recognize that the 1911 was never intended to be carried concealed or in anything other than in a belt holster with a flapover cover. Not that you can't carry it holstered in other methods; but for some people; that might require some altering on how they carry it. For me; I allow the person to determine the best way to carry the weapon. For you, you can't admit that your way ISN'T the ONLY WAY.

And yes; if a person can't put the 1911 into condition 2 safely, then they aren't smarter than the weapon, and probably should have a different gun.

 

[1911Tuner]

Lordy! NINE...count'em...nine pages over such a simple point. That being choice. Whew!

For the record...

Condition One has a distinct advantage in speed bringing the gun into a fight. No question about that. I carry in Condition One 99.9% of the time. Knockin' around the ol' homestead, I carry it in Condition Three, or I carry a revolver...usually a SAA clone.

Condition Two also has its advantages under certain circumstances. It better protects the gun's internals from dirt and debris, especially when used in conjunction with a full flap holster. Although slower to deploy, it still allows the user to ready the gun with one hand.

Lowering the hammer safely is a matter of knowing how.

Cocking the hammer when the gun is needed...relatively quickly and fumble-free...is also a matter of knowing how. Hint: You don't cock it after drawing it.

Until you figure out how to do it...practicing both the above functions with an empty gun is a good idea.

Said it many times, and I'll say it again:

If the day ever comes that I don't have the manual dexterity and/or the mental acuity to lower the hammer on any exposed hammer weapon without killing a dog...a TV set...or myself...I'll sell the guns and take up gardening, because at that point...I'm not capable of handling a gun safely.

 

[xXxplosive]

+1.....What he said
1911Tuner knows his business.

 

[DougDubya]

Christcorp - I agree with you on Condition 2 being an option for southpaws who want to use their 1911's BOX STOCK.

And yes, there are quite a few 1911's that are inexpensive and have southpaw friendly levers - I LOVE them, especially the Charles Daley ECS or whatever its name is.

However, if I had a M1991A1 Officer's model (or any Colt Officer's model), it'd have to be carried Condition 2. Same with something like the SIG P238, or its poppa the Colt Mustang. (Or a Springfield Micro, which has the southpaw side safety at no extra charge.)

There are options out there, and there are options for carry, like 1911Tuner points out.

Also, the act of decocking a 1911 mirrors the decocking of a cocked revolver, and dozens of other single action pistols like the Beretta 1934, the 1951 Brigadier, the AMT Automags, and old non-firing pin block double action sidearms like the Walther PP, PPK and P38, the first model Berettas, the pre-decocker Taurus PT99's, the CZ-75...

Can I go on?