Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

[woad_yurt]

And those published documents stated that when action is iminent...the gun CAN be placed in Condition One if so desired.

Because it can be safely carried in Conditon 1 full time...it also offers the quickest, simplest method to bring the gun into an unexpected fight.

When carrying for self-defense, action will probably not be imminent, but it may be. Can one honestly say the opposite? One never knows when one will be accosted and thus end up in "an unexpected fight." Like someone said already, there is no safe perimeter out there in society. It sounds like condition one is a good thing when something could happen at any moment.

As to the gun not being designed originally for condition one, maybe that's true. But they then added the additional safety stuff to satisfy military requirements; they redesigned it. A redesign is for a change of appearance or function; it's the definition of the word. They redesigned it to function differently from the original.

I thought we were talking about the final, accepted product anyway, not the first versions.

 

[1911Tuner]

I thought we were talking about the final, accepted product anyway, not the first versions.

That was only tossed in to disprove the myth that Browning intended C&L. i.e How could he have had that intent if the first ones didn't even have a (slide locking) thumb safety?

Browning had no such intent. He was asked to aid in designing a pistol with certain features...and that's all he did. Beyond that, he probably didn't give a rotund rodent's rump how it was carried.

 

[woad_yurt]

All I said was that the pistol in question mentioned by the OP, the 1911, was designed for C&L carry. The 1905 wasn't but this one was. It was a condition of acceptance imposed by the military. They wanted someone to be able to swipe a safety and holster the gun (carry!) safely and they got it. It doesn't matter who did it or when; it was done. The resulting 1911 was indeed designed to be carried that way.

 

[David E]

Regardless of how it was "designed," the smart way to carry a 1911 on the body for defense IS condition one.

If you are not comfortable carrying it that way, then a better route would be to choose a different gun design that can be fired with minimal manipulation instead of choosing a less effective, slower method of carrying the 1911.

 

[DougDubya]

I carried it around unloaded IWB for several days in the cocked and locked condition to see what would happen with the safety. My 1911 has ambi safety, and it never once moved to the off position. I did house chores, drove my truck, did yard work, went to work and rolled around on the floor wrestling with my two young daughters. Never looked back since. You newbies out there..............read this thread and do your own investigating, and in the end you will figure it out for yourself.

People make way too much ado about ambi-safeties, especially if carried in good holsters.

Locked and cocked is great for this southpaw, with the proper levers.
If they're not present, *sigh* I'll make do with Condition Two until I can get that fixed on a 1911.

 

[DougDubya]

Regardless of how it was "designed," the smart way to carry a 1911 on the body for defense IS condition one.

If you are not comfortable carrying it that way, then a better route would be to choose a different gun design that can be fired with minimal manipulation instead of choosing a less effective, slower method of carrying the 1911.

You presume options that might not be available at TIME OF NEED for a pistol.

This is why people practice, and smart people try to keep their skill-sets broad for eventualities.

It's also why I think 1911 fans complaining about "unusable double-action triggers" need to put on their man pants and do what guys like Ernie Langdon and Skeeter Skelton did and develop some hand strength.

 

[EddieNFL]

Don't think I would waste my time with an "unusable" trigger.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Army knew full well that when men are in a situation where every advantage...whether real or imagined...helps, and it makes them feel a little better...and that in such situations, regulations be damned...the pistol would be topped off with an extra, possibly lifesaving round...and the hammer lowered to give

Can you document that?

The Army clearly authorized carrying in what we today call Condition 1 (cocked and locked.) What we call Condition 3 was preferred, but Condition 1 was authorized. Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber) was specifically not authorized. From FM 23-35:

Do not lower the hammer on a loaded
cartridge; the pistol is much safer cocked and locked.

From Description of the Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, Model of 1911 dated April 1, 1912 with a February 14, 1914 revision date:

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb)

 

[DougDubya]

Don't think I would waste my time with an "unusable" trigger.

Again, these are morons who drop their 1911 triggers down to three pounds, then wail and howl when the average DA pull of 9-11 pounds is something their puny little fingers can't control - all the while people not raised on sneeze-activated triggers hit the X-ring with regularity with .38/.357 revolvers, or Glock-alikes with a seven pound average trigger pull.

 

[Oro]

Quote:
The Army knew full well that when men are in a situation where every advantage...whether real or imagined...helps, and it makes them feel a little better...and that in such situations, regulations be damned...the pistol would be topped off with an extra, possibly lifesaving round...and the hammer lowered to give
Can you document that?

Yes, both in practice and in Army training. You can read war diaries and find these references. One I recall in particular was Hampton Sides' book on Cabanatuan. Con. 2 carry was mentioned.

Also, while the field manual said NOT to do it in one place, then they trained soldiers to fire from Con. 2 in another. See W.D. Doc 905, the original army pub. on the 1911, published in 1914 and again in 1918. Perhaps it is the one you are quoting from above. See the last section on training and drills. It has field drills to draw, cock and fire from Con. 2 and this is the only firing/aiming drill specifically described for squad training. It is the very last section of the manual.

A thorough reading of the manual shows that the army was not consistent in training/practice and printed doctrine. I don't think this should be terribly surprising.

 

[David E]

Originally Posted by David E
Regardless of how it was "designed," the smart way to carry a 1911 on the body for defense IS condition one.

If you are not comfortable carrying it that way, then a better route would be to choose a different gun design that can be fired with minimal manipulation instead of choosing a less effective, slower method of carrying the 1911.

Doug Dubya responded:

You presume options that might not be available at TIME OF NEED for a pistol.

I do? Like what? Please elaborate.

It's also why I think 1911 fans complaining about "unusable double-action triggers" need to put on their man pants and do what guys like Ernie Langdon and Skeeter Skelton did and develop some hand strength.

Chuck Taylor, one of the most vociferous opponents of DA autos (at least in the past) needs to address this issue, himself.

There is "unusable" and there is "practice." Often, the latter takes care of the former.

 

[DougDubya]

David - like your right trigger and middle fingers have become fractured, and listening to people like John Farnham, you got rid of your ambidextrous safeties because you thought they COULD have been knocked off (despite expertise of thousands otherwise). Interdicting a thumb, ring finger or pinkie between hammer and firing pin puts it to Condition 2, and is more certain than bringing it up from Condition 3.

There's also rusted levers... and such. Who knows? Which is why all safe firearm handling methods should be in your quiver.

Or, just be a southpaw who prefers to have your smart hand in control of the 1911 at all times.

Practical manual decocking is also NECESSARY for old Walthers, Tokarev's, Beretta 1930's models with impractical 180 degree levers or Brigadiers with crossbolt's...

 

[bluecollar]

Its funny how some will forever knock the Glock for having to pull the trigger on an EMPTY gun to fieldstrip it but think nothing of manually lowering the hammer on a knowingly LOADED and CHAMBERED round in a 1911 to put it in condition 2. There's no need to ever touch the hammer on a 1911. Use it as a "cocked" indicator.

 

[inSight-NEO]

Conditional states and information regarding Conditions 1 and 2, minus my remarks of course, are courtesy of /www.sightm1911.com


-For those who may be viewing this thread and are unaware of various "conditional" states-

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.


-Specific to the OP-

The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don't understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Ill add that, regardless of weapon, anyone who chooses to carry in this manner must pay utmost attention to safety and be completely familiar with their weapon.

Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.

Ill reiterate that lowering the hammer on any live round is not a safe practice. Do not do it if it can be avoided! If you do, take it slow, pay attention to what you are doing and most of all, do not point the muzzle towards anything that can die!

In addition, pulling/making ready such a weapon, while under stress, would be much safer in condition 1 over conditon 2 in that if you "slip" the safety, you try again....if you "slip" the hammer, the gun just may go BOOM. Hence, condition 1 is less prone to error, IMHO.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, both in practice and in Army training. You can read war diaries and find these references. One I recall in particular was Hampton Sides' book on Cabanatuan. Con. 2 carry was mentioned.

You can read in diaries and books stories of people deserting, going AWOL, and even killing prisoners. But that doesn't make such things Army policy.

Find an official Army document that says Condition 2 carry is approved.

 

[EddieNFL]

Its funny how some will forever knock the Glock for having to pull the trigger on an EMPTY gun to fieldstrip it but think nothing of manually lowering the hammer on a knowingly LOADED and CHAMBERED round in a 1911 to put it in condition 2.

It's no different than dropping the hammer on any firearm for any reason; say a function check. Judging by various pix on the net, it does seem Glock owners are more prone to covering the muzzle with their hand.

 

[Kleanbore]

Happened to talk to an ex-Army friend last night.

He carried with an empty chamber; said that was he was within a reasonably secure perimeter. People who out into the delta area or up into the jungles always carried cocked and locked. He also said that Condition 2 was a total no-no. Lowering the hammer on a loaded round was considered to be excessively risky.

He served a couple of years in SE Asia starting in 1968.

He chuckled when he recalled my having selected a Smith & wesson Model 39 because I thought it was safer. Well, it is, it you want to carry with the hammer down on a loaded chamber; the hammer drop safety makes it a (quiet) snap. Having switched to a 1911 over 40 years later, I choose to not lower the hammer on a loaded chamber.

I can understand some peoples' natural aversion to Condition 1. It just looks dangerous, to the layman. However, if you think about it, the Colt 1908 (or Browning's later .380) in a pocket , or a Colt Woodsman in a holster on the trail, would likely be carried with a round in the chamber with the safety "on", and they would both necessarily be cocked. It's just that no one sees a cocked hammer to get worried about.

 

[Frankh]

This has been interesting.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I can understand some peoples' natural aversion to Condition 1. It just looks dangerous, to the layman. However, if you think about it, the Colt 1908 (or Browning's later .380) in a pocket , or a Colt Woodsman in a holster on the trail, would likely be carried with a round in the chamber with the safety "on", and they would both necessarily be cocked. It's just that no one sees a cocked hammer to get worried about.

The same is true for the Ruger .22 Automatic -- it has an internal hammer which is cocked when you chamber a round. I think I mentioned being in the woods with a friend who was carrying a Ruger, and my Colt Service Ace conversion (mounted on my M1927 Argentine) gave him the willies -- and when I explained he was also carrying cocked and locked, it took a while to sink in.

 

[David E]

David - like your right trigger and middle fingers have become fractured,

Um..............are you serious ?

and listening to people like John Farnham, you got rid of your ambidextrous safeties because you thought they COULD have been knocked off (despite expertise of thousands otherwise).

I've taken a few classes from Mr. Farnam. When I carry a 1911 with an ambi-safety, I carry it in a KyTac holster, which locks the safety in place.

Interdicting a thumb, ring finger or pinkie between hammer and firing pin puts it to Condition 2, and is more certain than bringing it up from Condition 3.

But Condition One is more certain still !

There's also rusted levers... and such.

Someone that carries a gun for defense and allows his levers to become crusted with rust and stuck deserves whatever befalls them.

Who knows? Which is why all safe firearm handling methods should be in your quiver.

To a point. Consistency should not be overlooked. Some folks in this thread say sometimes they carry it C&L, other times, C-2, still other times, C-3. How can one train for that? If they routinely carry C-2 but something tells them to go to C&L, but they never practice wiping off the safety at speed, well, the problem is obvious to most.

Or, just be a southpaw who prefers to have your smart hand in control of the 1911 at all times.

They make ambi safeties. In stainless, if rust is a valid concern for you !

Practical manual decocking is also NECESSARY for old Walthers, Tokarev's, Beretta 1930's models with impractical 180 degree levers or Brigadiers with crossbolt's...

This part belongs in the thread: "Practical Manual Decocking for Old Walthers, Tokarevs and Beretta 1930's Model." THIS thread is about 1911's.

 

[DougDubya]

David E - if you lose your main gun, and ALL that's on hand is a rusted 1911, don't come crying to me.

Also, I NEVER KNEW ambidextrous safeties existed... in STAINLESS no less!

They don't magically appear on firearms you have to scrounge, and unless you're in MEU-SOC, few US Armed Forces issue 1911's HAVE them, if you end up issued one. At least a few military folks who are southpaws that I've read from have carried unmodified, bare bones 1911's in Condition 2 because poorly fitted safeties could just ruin your day.

Also, the OP asked WHY?

I was coming up with answers.

And am I serious about two fingers on your primary gun hand being fractured and unusuable for firearms usage? You've never broken a couple of fingers in a car door, or jammed them worthless playing basketball? Or never burned yourself on a stove?

You'll be injury free for your entire existence? Or better yet, never get shot in the hand, arm or shoulder?

Someone that carries a gun for defense and allows his levers to become crusted with rust and stuck deserves whatever befalls them.

Plane goes down in woods. Your luggage (and stored firearms) flew out of the hold 15 miles back, but your pilot has a rusty old beater 1911 in his flight box. Hammer and trigger work, but the safety's rusted.

You go unarmed? Do you end up wishing you'd learned to safely handle a 1911 in Condition 2 or 3? Or do you train now and be prepared for contingencies?

 

[phamily man]

condition 1 no question.
if you have a grip safety the gun wont go off in your pants accidentally
Cocked and Locked!

 

[Kleanbore]

I think I mentioned being in the woods with a friend who was carrying a Ruger,...

You did indeed, Vern. I did not intend to fail to acknowledge it.

 

[christcorp]

People like "Claiming" how a 1911 was "INTENDED" to be carried. Meaning which condition. However, with all the talk about safeties, hammers, letting down the hammer, etc... No one on the Pro Condition-1 side of the isle seems to mention that as a military weapon, the 1911 was NEVER INTENDED to be carried concealed. And that it WAS INTENDED to be carried in a holster that covered the hammer and thumb safety. And when carried this way, OWB, flap type holster; then it is almost impossible for there to be any interference with the weapon. But in this conversation, I'll bet anyone here a pay check that most don't carry the 1911 in such a holster. Many here carry it IWB. Many carry it concealed. Some carry in shoulder rigs. And the list goes on. And there are a lot of other considerations for this weapon when it's not carried the way it was "INTENDED". So, if you're going to insist that the magical "THEY" intended the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked (Condition 1); then you have to concede that it was also intended to be carried open carry, and in a holster that completely covered the weapon.

 

[Kleanbore]

No one on the Pro Condition-1 side of the isle seems to mention that as a military weapon, the 1911 was NEVER INTENDED to be carried concealed.

Is that relevant? Are you suggesting that it should not be carried concealed? How about open carry, without a "flap" holster? Do you recommend carrying something else?