Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

[Double Naught Spy]

The thing is, if christcorp, for example, in the unlikely event prove he is "just as fast" either way, then that simply proves he has not practiced wiping off the thumb safety properly.

I agree. While it certainly may be possible to train enough to be equally quick using either method (I remain skeptical), training and real-world are "worlds" apart. Fine motor skill goes out the window under duress.

It isn't like threading a needle. Swiping off the safety isn't a fine motor skill.

 

[EddieNFL]

It isn't like threading a needle. Swiping off the safety isn't a fine motor skill.

Never said it was. I was referring to attempting to cock the hammer while drawing/presenting.

 

[EddieNFL]

So you just keep cocking and trying to fire a cartridge you already know is defective? When you can reload just as quickly?

If it's the last round you have, what are you going to reload with?

 

[Billy Shears]

Quote:
"So you just keep cocking and trying to fire a cartridge you already know is defective? When you can reload just as quickly?"
If it's the last round you have, what are you going to reload with?

We're getting into some pretty unlikely scenarios here. I think we ought to abandon the idea that any design features of the 1911 are based on such improbable "what ifs."

 

[woad_yurt]

Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

Short answer:
It was designed to be carried like that.

Long answer:
Look at a drawing of the gun's works and have someone point out what actually happens in there. Mechanical things do what they do regardless of your feelings towards them.

I'd rather have my thumb on a safety on the side than have it up and directly behind the slide if a situation got sticky. If you slip and the thing fires, you may be looking at some stitiches. Those slides bite deep sometimes. The safety is out of harm's way.

 

[EddieNFL]

We're getting into some pretty unlikely scenarios here. I think we ought to abandon the idea that any design features of the 1911 are based on such improbable "what ifs."

There is a statistic for everything, but my post was a jest.

 

[xXxplosive]

My $0.02, You can Cock what ever you want but mine is Locked and Loaded always....Condition 1.

 

[tmoore912]

As a relative noob to carrying a firearm, about three years now, I did a lot of investigation on the 1911 platform before buying one. I read books, chatted on gun forums, watched videos and rented them to shoot at my local gun ranges. There is no question that the 1911 can be carried in several different conditions, but the condition I chose to always carry in was condition 1. Condition 3 was not acceptable to me, because I wanted to be able to draw and fire as quickly as possible to be able to maybe survive a close force on force encounter. Condition 2 was also not acceptable because I could not practice it real world at my shooting range, but also because it was really slow to draw, cock and fire compared to condition 1. The other main reason I stayed away from condition 2 is that I would have to violate one of the major safety laws by pulling the trigger while releasing the hammer on a live round. So, condition 1 was the way to go for me. Cocked and Locked with it being very easy to flick the safety off while drawing from the holster.

I carried it around unloaded IWB for several days in the cocked and locked condition to see what would happen with the safety. My 1911 has ambi safety, and it never once moved to the off position. I did house chores, drove my truck, did yard work, went to work and rolled around on the floor wrestling with my two young daughters. Never looked back since. You newbies out there..............read this thread and do your own investigating, and in the end you will figure it out for yourself.

 

[jdh]

When is it ever better to try a restrike on a cartridge rather than tap-rack-fire?

When you are shooting one handed because your other hand has been incapacitated.

 

[Hawk]

Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

Short answer:
It was designed to be carried like that.

The myth dies hard. It's even repeated in the same thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6037266&postcount=41

I prefer condition one myself but it likely has something to do with Jeff Cooper and nothing to do with JM Browning.

 

[mljdeckard]

My posts were not in jest.

 

[Billy Shears]

The myth dies hard. It's even repeated in the same thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....6&postcount=41

I prefer condition one myself but it likely has something to do with Jeff Cooper and nothing to do with JM Browning.

Well, to be fair, it's not entirely wrong. It's true enough that there probably was no intent on the part of Browning, his colleagues at Colt's, or of the army to have the gun carried full time cocked and locked. However a manual safety was included at the request of the army to allow the gun to be safely reholstered -- and thus carried -- with the hammer cocked and the safety engaged. This was probably meant only as a limited duration means of carry, and in response to particular circumstances (e.g. the previously mentioned instance of a cavalryman with a drawn pistol needing to bring an unruly mount back under control without shooting himself or the horse). The pistol was probably meant to be either redrawn or returned to condition 3 carry as soon as circumstances would permit. But nevertheless, the pistol was meant to be capable of being safely returned to its holster with the hammer cocked and the safety engaged, and so it, in a sense, designed to be carried that way.

It's simply that later on, Cooper and others realized that the safety was entirely capable of being used full time instead of part time, and the gun was no more prone to negligent discharges if carried this way by a trained shooter, and that by carrying this way, said shooter could be faster to an accurate first shot than he could be with any other practical sidearm.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The pistol was probably meant to be either redrawn or returned to condition 3 carry as soon as circumstances would permit. But nevertheless, the pistol was meant to be capable of being safely returned to its holster with the hammer cocked and the safety engaged, and so it, in a sense, designed to be carried that way.

Absolutely right. As FM 23-35 (my version is dated 1940) puts it: "Do not lower the hammer on a loaded cartridge; the pistol is much safer cocked and locked."

 

[M1911]

Is there a big advantage to carrying a 1911 with the hammer cocked and safety on vs. hammer uncocked (Condition 2)?

Since a vast majority of 1911s are SAO I see no advantage.

I had a 1911 guy tell me that he carries his 1911 in Condition 1 because it is the best way.

I figure if you draw your 1911 in Condition 1 then you will need to flip the safety off with your thumb.

If you draw your 1911 in Condition 2 then you will use your thumb to cock the hammer back.

Both methods require your thumb to actuate something on the pistol.

Personally, I think there are several advantages to condition 1 over condition 2.

First, to carry in condition 1, you charge the chamber and apply the safety. That can be performed quite safely.

In contrast, to carry condition 2, you charge the chamber and then have to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. That is a far more error-prone process than applying the safety -- one that is far more likely to result in a negligent discharge. So condition 2 is significantly more dangerous to get into than condition 1.

Second, drawing and firing in condition 1 is significantly faster and less fumble prone than in condition 2. With condition 1, you draw from the holster, as the gun rotates through a 45 degree angle you lower the safety, and then fire once the gun is on target. This is easily accomplished with one hand, as the thumb safety is positioned where you thumb naturally goes.

In contrast, with condition 2 you have to draw from the holster and cock the hammer. This is significantly harder to do one-handed, particularly if you have a beavertail safety and a commander-style hammer. You also break your grip while doing so, making it easier to drop the gun and also requiring you to reacquire your grip prior to firing. If you use your left thumb to cock the hammer, you have to cock the hammer and then move your left thumb back to your normal grip position on the left side of the gun, so it is also slower than using the safety.

In summary, condition 2 is more dangerous and slower than condition 1, and it provides no advantage over condition 1. If condition 1 scares you, get over your fears, carry condition 3, or get a different gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

I prefer condition one myself but it likely has something to do with Jeff Cooper and nothing to do with JM Browning.

Cooper may have influenced your preference but he didn't come up with the concept. The 1940 version of the Army manual calls for carrying the pistol, holstered or in hand, cocked with loaded chamber with the safety switch on "in campaign, when ... early use of the pistol is probable", and it advises against carrying the weapon with the hammer down on a loaded chamber under any circumstances.

Thanks to Vern Humphrey for that.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6037784&postcount=51

If you are carrying a handgun for self defense you are going to have to carry in a ready condition. "Early use" may not be probable, but quick deployment sure may be necessary.

I'd be interested in seeing what it says in earlier versions. World War I editions do not seem to be available.

"Condition 1" may seem unnerving to many, condition 2 was recommended against in the manual, and condition 3 does not lend itself best to readiness (try the Tueller drill from an empty chamber).

I see two alternatives: use a different pistol or learn to accept that Condition 1 is OK. Forty three years ago I opted for the former with a Smith model 39, and early this year I traded it for a Smith M&P 9c.

My shying away from the 1911 back than resulted from a preference for a hammer drop safety and DA trigger and from the fact that the "reliable" .45 pistols I had fired had atrocious triggers, miserable sights, and loose tolerances. Those things had been used in WWII. Elmer Keith was no fan of the 9MM, but he contended that the Model 39 was safer and much more accurate than the 1911, and he influenced my decision very strongly.

Having since received advice regarding Condition 1 carry from the writings of Cooper and others, from police officers I know who carry 1911 pistols as backup, and from members of this forum, and having realized that the longer trigger pull of the aforementioned pistols makes me less effective with them than with a good 1911, I recently changed to a 1911.

The manual? I had one once but I forgot what it said years ago.

 

[Hawk]

Well, to be fair, it's not entirely wrong.

I can go along with that, but it is "mostly wrong" and implies the existence of documentation that doesn't exist or paranormal abilities on the part of the claimant.

If we're to be guessing about "design and intent" I'd suggest that the original design and intent of the single action army of 1873 was to use the "safety notch" as, of all things, a "safety notch". The issue holster of the SAA had a full flap which made six-up carry with the safety notch reasonably safe (at least in an era where "tort reform" was in nobody's vocabulary).

Nearly 150 years later and full coverage holsters are rare and nobody suggests carrying a SAA pattern revolver fully loaded and "safety notched". The 1911 holster was similar. Things have changed in fundamental ways.

The 1911 was intended by JMB to be carried in condition one in much the same manner as Sam Colt intended the SAA to be carried with 5 rounds, which is to say "hmmm. it'll work but it's not what we had in mind".


Disclaimer: I no better at channeling Sam Colt than others are at channeling J.M. Browning but the notion of loading six at one time seems plausible, does it not?

U.S. Army manuals are available to the average citizen. However, divining the intent of the designer requires paranormal abilities. The two are not interchangeable.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

This always brings me back to a time I was in the woods with a friend. He was carrying a Ruger .22 automatic and I was carrying an M1911 with a Colt Service Ace conversion kit.

He made a big thing about it, claiming carrying cocked-and-locked was "unsafe." Then I pointed out that he was carrying cocked-and-locked, too. He didn't realize it because he couldn't see the cocked hammer on the Ruger and had never thought about it.

Then I pointed out my gun had two safeties, and his only had one.

 

[mljdeckard]

And jdh, If you can't draw, fire, reload, and clear a stoppage with one hand, and EITHER hand, you need to learn.

 

[DougDubya]

If I come across a 1911 and it doesn't have ambidextrous safeties, then I'd have to resort to Condition 2.

But that's only in the instance where I'd be without 1911's purpose bought for protecting my hide and in an emergency.

It's a rare circumstance, but it's one I can foresee, and thus, PRACTICE PRACTICE momma-lovin' PRACTICE.

 

[bhk]

From an original copy of Description of the Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, Model of 1911 dated April 1, 1912 with a February 14, 1914 revision date. It was printed by the Washington Government Printing Office in 1917 and marked Ordance Department U.S.A. in the flaming bomb symbol.

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position.

Although the manual does not recommend carry in a hoster cocked and locked except in an emergency, it goes on to state:

If the pistol is so carried in the holster, cocked and safety lock on, the butt of the pistol should be rotated away from the body when withdrawing the pistol from the holster, in order to avoid displacing the safety lock.

So, it appears the Army in 1914 felt the gun was designed to be carried cocked and locked in some circumstances.

I am 60 years old and received this manual when my step grandfather died. He worked testing firearms for Springfield Armory. I received many other manuals, included interesting stuff on how to synchronize machine guns mounted on propeller driven fighter planes so the bullets do not shear off the blades!

 

[David E]

Well, there ya go ! It WAS "designed" that way!

 

[jdh]

Not only can I but I taught others to do it as a collateral duty.

You slam the mag on a hard object, you hook the sight on your belt push hard and hope the sight stays hooked on the belt for the full stroke. Takes longer to explain it than do do it.

The problem is that the shooter has all ready sustained a serious injury, is full of hormones which reduce his coordination and give him the jitters, his pistol is covered in very slippery bodily fluids and you want him to execute a complicated maneuver that he has, at best, practiced a few times in the controlled environment of the range/classroom.

Try this, pour some blood over the back of the slide, wait a little bit for it to soak in and clot up then try to fire you 1911. If it was not a dud but a light strike because some of those bodily fluids have slowed the hammer fall or gummed up the firing pin it only takes a couple seconds to thumb back the hammer and pull the trigger again. If his is lucky the cartridge fires and all is well. If not only a couple seconds have been added to the one handed immediate action drill.

 

[David E]

Now THERE'S a likely scenario for any CCW'er out there !

 

[1911Tuner]

Well, there ya go ! It WAS "designed" that way!

Sure it was. It was also designed to use either of the other options. It has an inertrial firing pin that's shorter than the breechblock...so it was designed to be carried safely with the hammer down on a loaded chamber, too.

Of course...it was also designed to be carried in Condition 3 or 4 as well.

It was designed to give the user a choice. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[earlthegoat2]

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close,

Not only does this go against the conventional wisdom I was taught about not loading the chamber directly on a 1911, it also sounds like some serious dexterity would need to be employed to pull it off. Add that to meybe even being on horseback and whew.