Why Don't more People Go To Gun School?
- Thread starter Fred Fuller
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NWGlocker
Member
Shorter answer-- for me it's not about anxiety or ego, it's really about all the other things in day-to-day life that clash with current training class schedules. I just can't create that much uninterrupted time. Multi-day courses, 8-10 hours each day, just don't work for my own schedule.
It's easier to break it up in smaller bites, say every Saturday for 8 weeks, 3 hours at a time. I also think it's better for reinforcement and skill maintenance.
Longer answer: I can answer the question with my own question (which is the same as my first paragraph), posted on this site in 2012. A lot of good answers in that thread, so I now understand the issues from the instructor standpoint.
It's easier to break it up in smaller bites, say every Saturday for 8 weeks, 3 hours at a time. I also think it's better for reinforcement and skill maintenance.
Longer answer: I can answer the question with my own question (which is the same as my first paragraph), posted on this site in 2012. A lot of good answers in that thread, so I now understand the issues from the instructor standpoint.
Short answer for me...the only thing that has not changed for me in 5 years is my wage and my house payment. Every other cost in my life has gone up. No extra expendable income for class. Besides the hundreds of dollars to take a class. The hundreds of dollars for ammo..it would also be hundreds of dollars of lost income to take a class. So a class that cost $150 plus 500 rounds of ammo will ultimately be a lot more then that initial investment. And since no class is withing 2 hours of me more then likely a hotel too. So a $150 class could very easily be $1000 or more.
so therefore right or wrong the only viable options my wife and I have are shooting on our home range...watching lots of shows and videos. Sorting thru what we believe is good info and bogus info and applying it to our self training the best we can. Live day to day. Hope for the best and prepair for the worst. Be courteous to everyone but be cautious of all and raise our kids and help raise our grandchild the best we can.
so therefore right or wrong the only viable options my wife and I have are shooting on our home range...watching lots of shows and videos. Sorting thru what we believe is good info and bogus info and applying it to our self training the best we can. Live day to day. Hope for the best and prepair for the worst. Be courteous to everyone but be cautious of all and raise our kids and help raise our grandchild the best we can.
Several reasons.
Some are..Finding a school or instructor that is worth the money so you dont fall into the clutches of some Rambo wanna be instructor instead of a good trainer when you really dont even know where to begin in the first place.
The availability of the school to your vicinity.
Just because you live in a big city does not mean you will readily find a decent school or instructor.
And that is even a bit harder to find in a smaller city.
Another reason is money.
There are some reasons.
Some are..Finding a school or instructor that is worth the money so you dont fall into the clutches of some Rambo wanna be instructor instead of a good trainer when you really dont even know where to begin in the first place.
The availability of the school to your vicinity.
Just because you live in a big city does not mean you will readily find a decent school or instructor.
And that is even a bit harder to find in a smaller city.
Another reason is money.
There are some reasons.
Hangingrock
Member
The cost of Training as an example using Gunsite handgun courses 250 – 350 & 499. Basic tuition for the three courses combined total is $5445.00.
Ammunition requirement for all three courses is a total of 3300 rounds standard ammunition and 500 rounds frangible ammunition. (Note: if one scored Expert in course 250 one may skip course 350 ($1850.00/ plus cost of 1000 rounds standard ammunition and 200 rounds frangible ammunition) with in a years’ time and go onto course 499. One needs to add the total ammunition cost into expense: ($--------) for the previously mention courses.
Then there are the time constraints, travel, lodging, meals, and miscellaneous expense total: ($-------).
Going to Gunsite is not likely for most individual’s thus regional training venues/facilities with staff and or guest instructors.
I would question the quality of such training but that’s not say there is not quality but one would have to be selective under you get what you pay for.
On another forum there was a subject I believe titled "The Rise of the Training Snob". The replies were mixed.
Ammunition requirement for all three courses is a total of 3300 rounds standard ammunition and 500 rounds frangible ammunition. (Note: if one scored Expert in course 250 one may skip course 350 ($1850.00/ plus cost of 1000 rounds standard ammunition and 200 rounds frangible ammunition) with in a years’ time and go onto course 499. One needs to add the total ammunition cost into expense: ($--------) for the previously mention courses.
Then there are the time constraints, travel, lodging, meals, and miscellaneous expense total: ($-------).
Going to Gunsite is not likely for most individual’s thus regional training venues/facilities with staff and or guest instructors.
I would question the quality of such training but that’s not say there is not quality but one would have to be selective under you get what you pay for.
On another forum there was a subject I believe titled "The Rise of the Training Snob". The replies were mixed.
A lot of us did go to school. Army Basic, then AIT. Followed by MP later in life. All of which gets no recognition by the State for CCW, even.
I never fired a shot in anger, neither do most LEO's.
What seems to count is the number of kills someone can claim and whether you are well heeled enough to shoot hundreds of rounds weekly. If you can't, then, obviously, the shooting community discounts the years of professional training and rehearsal. You are considered a rank beginner and if you say or do something that is different from the instructors rigid class instruction, you are a trouble maker. Only their limited perspective is allowed.
Now let's add the cost of paying for the privilege to be in that environment, where ALL instructors are spring loaded in the defensive mode that everything is a challenge to their authority, which must be maintained at all costs to prevent the class falling apart or - horrors - any safety violation according to some pretty strict range rules.
I can show up cocked and locked in the parking lot having traveled hundreds of miles cross country only to disarm myself because somebody could just maybe screw up and have an ND. Funny, the Army thought it necessary for me to carry a M9 with two mags, and an M16 with full mag on a rotating basis, at a check point allowing the entrance to post with literally tens of thousands of civilians passing thru. LEO's carry every waking moment with some having a firearm within reach of their bed. Some of us (don't ask, don't tell) carry concealed where ever we see fit. Concealed does mean concealed, who's going to know?
At the course you can't carry, have to keep the firearm on a table, unloaded, with instructions only when ready.
Not copping an attitude, the reality is that too many courses don't prequalify the students and conduct their classes in a real armed environment. When all of your classmates and instructor are armed, cocked and locked, at all times and during the exercise, then the real instruction and habits get formed and reinforced, by all concerned.
This is the operating environment now used in Basic - they issue the weapons out and you eat, sleep, and live with them. That is what ingrains proper habits, because your fellow classmates apply their viewpoints and you get to experience a broader range of what safe gun handling is all about. Not having an instructor with a bare Glock subcompact shoved in their back pocket sitting in a school desk telling you he doesn't want to see any firearms until we hit the range.
We aren't the only ones with bad habits. I've come to the conclusion that what skill levels I have are adequate for the low risk of living in suburbia. I'm just one of 20 million other prior service soldiers, sailors, airmen, or Marines, and a lot of us run on an old proverb, you give respect, you get respect.
When I'm not asked to disarm in the parking lot, I might consider a course, if and when I can afford to pay the prices. Just presenting a different perspective.
I never fired a shot in anger, neither do most LEO's.
What seems to count is the number of kills someone can claim and whether you are well heeled enough to shoot hundreds of rounds weekly. If you can't, then, obviously, the shooting community discounts the years of professional training and rehearsal. You are considered a rank beginner and if you say or do something that is different from the instructors rigid class instruction, you are a trouble maker. Only their limited perspective is allowed.
Now let's add the cost of paying for the privilege to be in that environment, where ALL instructors are spring loaded in the defensive mode that everything is a challenge to their authority, which must be maintained at all costs to prevent the class falling apart or - horrors - any safety violation according to some pretty strict range rules.
I can show up cocked and locked in the parking lot having traveled hundreds of miles cross country only to disarm myself because somebody could just maybe screw up and have an ND. Funny, the Army thought it necessary for me to carry a M9 with two mags, and an M16 with full mag on a rotating basis, at a check point allowing the entrance to post with literally tens of thousands of civilians passing thru. LEO's carry every waking moment with some having a firearm within reach of their bed. Some of us (don't ask, don't tell) carry concealed where ever we see fit. Concealed does mean concealed, who's going to know?
At the course you can't carry, have to keep the firearm on a table, unloaded, with instructions only when ready.
Not copping an attitude, the reality is that too many courses don't prequalify the students and conduct their classes in a real armed environment. When all of your classmates and instructor are armed, cocked and locked, at all times and during the exercise, then the real instruction and habits get formed and reinforced, by all concerned.
This is the operating environment now used in Basic - they issue the weapons out and you eat, sleep, and live with them. That is what ingrains proper habits, because your fellow classmates apply their viewpoints and you get to experience a broader range of what safe gun handling is all about. Not having an instructor with a bare Glock subcompact shoved in their back pocket sitting in a school desk telling you he doesn't want to see any firearms until we hit the range.
We aren't the only ones with bad habits. I've come to the conclusion that what skill levels I have are adequate for the low risk of living in suburbia. I'm just one of 20 million other prior service soldiers, sailors, airmen, or Marines, and a lot of us run on an old proverb, you give respect, you get respect.
When I'm not asked to disarm in the parking lot, I might consider a course, if and when I can afford to pay the prices. Just presenting a different perspective.
If you "mine" your local range dirt berms, for at least a full ton of lead, buy a few Lee 6 cavity molds, look on e bay for a propane-fired plumber's furnace and a Star Progressive loader. Wally's has cast iron pots that will hold 100 lbs of lead per "melt". You want a spout type pourinig ladle, from Lyman. You can have 1500 lbs of clean lead, which will average out 45 or so bullets per lb (half 38//9mm, half .45 or .40. Those 60,000 bullets can easily be sold for 4k, at the gun shows. The gear setup costs runs about $700, and you can turn out 400 finished bullets per hour, counting the "mining" time. $25 an hour or so. A bit of your spare time, maybe with a kid or spouse helping, and you've paid for the gear, the BIG Lee progressive reloader (600 rds per hour) and the classes you wish to take. You can get the lead for almost nothing, and do NOT buy the casting gear before you have the lead! You can get the gear a peice at a time, so it's not a big geal to acquire it.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Not copping an attitude, the reality is that too many courses don't prequalify the students and conduct their classes in a real armed environment. When all of your classmates and instructor are armed, cocked and locked, at all times and during the exercise, then the real instruction and habits get formed and reinforced, by all concerned.
I took a 4 hour block of rifle instruction with John Farnam at a police conference in 2005. I was one of the instructors and did not have a rifle, so I just figured that I would observe.
When I asked John if that would be OK he handed me his rifle/ammo and said, "Well, you have one now."
John insisted that we carry fully loaded rifles throughout the class, since his experiences in Vietnam taught him that men need to not just learn how to use rifles, but how to live with them.
Two hour into the class I had to go to the bathroom and, when I sat down to do my business I was surprised to see that the rifle was still sling over my shoulder--I was starting to live with it and it was no longer a foreign item.
In other words, I totally agree with Tirod about much of the instruction offered on the commercial training circuit.
"You are considered a rank beginner and if you say or do something that is different from the instructors rigid class instruction, you are a trouble maker. Only their limited perspective is allowed."
So true--so true.
I took a 4 hour block of rifle instruction with John Farnam at a police conference in 2005. I was one of the instructors and did not have a rifle, so I just figured that I would observe.
When I asked John if that would be OK he handed me his rifle/ammo and said, "Well, you have one now."
John insisted that we carry fully loaded rifles throughout the class, since his experiences in Vietnam taught him that men need to not just learn how to use rifles, but how to live with them.
Two hour into the class I had to go to the bathroom and, when I sat down to do my business I was surprised to see that the rifle was still sling over my shoulder--I was starting to live with it and it was no longer a foreign item.
In other words, I totally agree with Tirod about much of the instruction offered on the commercial training circuit.
"You are considered a rank beginner and if you say or do something that is different from the instructors rigid class instruction, you are a trouble maker. Only their limited perspective is allowed."
So true--so true.
Trunk Monkey
member
hangingrock said:
that's close to a fifth of my yearly income, the only way I'm going to gunsite is if someone else pays for it.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Just a few counter points to consider:
1) COST: There are extremes in every endeavor. Yeah, some sets of courses might cost you $5,500, plus ammo, travel, etc. But many, many, many won't. I've only taken courses with price tags in the $180-$400 range, and they were still very, very valuable. Further, I've not yet traveled more than a few hours from my home range to take classes. Many incredibly good trainers travel around the country so if you keep your eyes and ears open you can avail yourself of good things at much lower costs. I also don't get to train under an instructor more than about once a year, if I'm lucky. Just can't afford it. But I do it when I can, and then try to practice what I learned on my own.
2) Personalities: It is often quite difficult to let go of our own philosophies and habits -- and let's call it ego, too. But you get out of things equivalent to what you put into them. You have to be a GOOD STUDENT, if you want to get 100% out of the class you're paying for.
Yeah, the real world is a hot range. But if your instructor feels it helps him teach to ask you to observe cold range rules during the class, LET IT GO. So what? It's a day. He's going to have you do all kinds of useful and worthwhile things. Maybe (HOPEFULLY!) he's going to push your limits a bit. If he wants to start you out cold, what harm does that do you? Would it be BETTER if he ran a hot range? Maybe. Maybe not. If you want it to be that way, only sign up for trainers who do so. I don't believe you'll be getting more value for your money that way, but I tend to go into these things with a very open mind. (More good stuff falls into it that way!
)
Look, if I'm going to get to train with a Farnham, Awerbuck, Givens, or some of the other top tier teachers, if they say, "Show up at the range in pink boxers, a tiara, and with your gun disassembled in a clear plastic bag," -- well, I'll be the one with the polka dots, and you'd better believe there will be rhinestones on that friggin' tiara! I'm gonna do it their way, 110%, because I believe they have something worthwhile to tell me, THEIR WAY. And tomorrow, I can switch back to my regular lavender briefs.
3) Personalities II:
On the other hand ...
That doesn't mean you're an idiot or a "rank beginner." That means SAVE IT. Hey, debate it with him over beers after class if you want. Or bring it up as a question at lunch (or during the Q&A period, if there is one). Discuss it via email later if you feel the need. You want to come to the class I'm paying for and take up my dollars (hours) arguing for YOUR (un?) limited perspective on these things? I'm gonna kind of want to bop you over the head with a piece of furniture and ask the guy I PAID to please continue without further interruption!
Tirod, I'm really not picking on you, and I'm sure you'd agree with all of that. But I do hear about this complaint a lot -- guys who want to go to class to show off what they know, or guys who want to convince the instructor to teach things the way they do them.
Be a good student -- JUST FOR TODAY -- and try out what the instructor is saying. Later on you can modify it, abandon it, adopt it ... whatever, as you wish. But let the guy try to teach you, and everybody else, what he came here to teach. Don't be a stumbling block.
1) COST: There are extremes in every endeavor. Yeah, some sets of courses might cost you $5,500, plus ammo, travel, etc. But many, many, many won't. I've only taken courses with price tags in the $180-$400 range, and they were still very, very valuable. Further, I've not yet traveled more than a few hours from my home range to take classes. Many incredibly good trainers travel around the country so if you keep your eyes and ears open you can avail yourself of good things at much lower costs. I also don't get to train under an instructor more than about once a year, if I'm lucky. Just can't afford it. But I do it when I can, and then try to practice what I learned on my own.
2) Personalities: It is often quite difficult to let go of our own philosophies and habits -- and let's call it ego, too. But you get out of things equivalent to what you put into them. You have to be a GOOD STUDENT, if you want to get 100% out of the class you're paying for.
Yeah, the real world is a hot range. But if your instructor feels it helps him teach to ask you to observe cold range rules during the class, LET IT GO. So what? It's a day. He's going to have you do all kinds of useful and worthwhile things. Maybe (HOPEFULLY!) he's going to push your limits a bit. If he wants to start you out cold, what harm does that do you? Would it be BETTER if he ran a hot range? Maybe. Maybe not. If you want it to be that way, only sign up for trainers who do so. I don't believe you'll be getting more value for your money that way, but I tend to go into these things with a very open mind. (More good stuff falls into it that way!
)Look, if I'm going to get to train with a Farnham, Awerbuck, Givens, or some of the other top tier teachers, if they say, "Show up at the range in pink boxers, a tiara, and with your gun disassembled in a clear plastic bag," -- well, I'll be the one with the polka dots, and you'd better believe there will be rhinestones on that friggin' tiara!
I'm gonna do it their way, 110%, because I believe they have something worthwhile to tell me, THEIR WAY. And tomorrow, I can switch back to my regular lavender briefs.3) Personalities II:
Allright. On the one hand, I do NOT believe that body count makes a good teacher. I do not believe that an instructor who hasn't killed in combat or on the street has anything less important to say than someone who has. That stuff becomes a fan club appeal and I'm not in it for that.
On the other hand ...
Dude, you are here to learn what HE has to say. No one paid to hear YOUR perspective. And, the guy doesn't have a whole lot of time to impart the ideas and practices that the class is paying for. He isn't there to debate you, or to ponder what you might have to teach him.
That doesn't mean you're an idiot or a "rank beginner." That means SAVE IT. Hey, debate it with him over beers after class if you want. Or bring it up as a question at lunch (or during the Q&A period, if there is one). Discuss it via email later if you feel the need. You want to come to the class I'm paying for and take up my dollars (hours) arguing for YOUR (un?) limited perspective on these things? I'm gonna kind of want to bop you over the head with a piece of furniture and ask the guy I PAID to please continue without further interruption!
Tirod, I'm really not picking on you, and I'm sure you'd agree with all of that. But I do hear about this complaint a lot -- guys who want to go to class to show off what they know, or guys who want to convince the instructor to teach things the way they do them.
Be a good student -- JUST FOR TODAY -- and try out what the instructor is saying. Later on you can modify it, abandon it, adopt it ... whatever, as you wish. But let the guy try to teach you, and everybody else, what he came here to teach. Don't be a stumbling block.
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I would rather spend time and money on legal training. Knowing when to shoot someone and how to stay out of prison is better than being a better shot at zero to 12 inches from the target. Depends on a person's priorities I guess. If you wanna do head-shots at 50 yards then you likely need the training. The downside is, without continuous training, skill gained eventually becomes skill lost, so the investment has to be ongoing. If I was a hunter, I would probably take some training but all my firearms are reserved for the human predator and we all know those type of assaults happen in-your-face.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Interesting. So how often do you need to take legal training? How much depth in legal understanding do you need to properly defend yourself?
Why do you present the two as an "either/or" as though a) you'll only do this once, and b) you can't do both?
I don't know of any defensive trainers teaching anyone to do any head shots at 50 yards.
I do know some who spend whole classes on how to survive a gunfight that happens entirely while you're in physical contact with the bad guy (i.e.: firing from retention positions, grappling, retaining the weapon, etc. Really fighting with a gun). And being a better shot really doesn't enter into it.
It sounds a little like you're opining that since gun fights happen up close, you don't need to train for that. I assume that's not really what you believe, but can you be more clear?
Why do you present the two as an "either/or" as though a) you'll only do this once, and b) you can't do both?
I don't know of any defensive trainers teaching anyone to do any head shots at 50 yards.
I do know some who spend whole classes on how to survive a gunfight that happens entirely while you're in physical contact with the bad guy (i.e.: firing from retention positions, grappling, retaining the weapon, etc. Really fighting with a gun). And being a better shot really doesn't enter into it.
It sounds a little like you're opining that since gun fights happen up close, you don't need to train for that. I assume that's not really what you believe, but can you be more clear?
Hangingrock
Member
I am a land owner member of a shooting venue. There is a member that is a very good “Sports Shooter” that instructs others in the art of competitive shooting. There is at the shooting venue outdoor shooting bays that accommodate such endeavors.
One day I observed him with a student. We talked but briefly I did not want to interrupt the training session. He told me he also instructed at Fort Bragg and Camp Lejeune.
That was not true. He may have instructed in or round Fayetteville and Jacksonville.
That is a problem I see that occurs with some instructor’s a hollow resume made up with a high round count courses of fire.
One day I observed him with a student. We talked but briefly I did not want to interrupt the training session. He told me he also instructed at Fort Bragg and Camp Lejeune.
That was not true. He may have instructed in or round Fayetteville and Jacksonville.
That is a problem I see that occurs with some instructor’s a hollow resume made up with a high round count courses of fire.
undeRGRound
Member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2013
- Messages
- 107
This really stands out. (the whole post did)
My son was top shooter in his platoon (USMC Boot Camp) and I asked him how many practice rounds he fired. He replied "not very many"
and I said, what, like 1000? "No"
500? "No, maybe more like 300, if you count qualifying"
He also qualified for sniper school, but with his ASVAB and the job he picked, they persuaded him to stay in his specialty. (Air Wing)
I have my doubts of all these people who say you need so many THOUSANDS of Rounds shot through your carry weapon. I can see hundreds, but come on now. LEO does not even require much range time, from what I have read from LEOs on all forums.
The point is, I believe training is essential, but many folks are getting great results from training aids and dry fire drills, etc. To those that say:
"You gotta have x,ooo rounds through your carry weapon"
I say
PS: I would attend a good training school if one were:
1. LOCAL
2. AFFORDABLE
3. ON WEEKENDS
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It all depends on the agency and/or academy. But realistically, none of us would be satisfied with the training cops get, or the proficiency they're required to achieve.
For basic marksmanship, to some degree, yes! Good shooters do incorporate a lot of dryfire into their routines.
That's all very different from defensive training, though.
"Square range" accuracy and practical shooting are related, but not the same thing.
Sort of like saying, "I know how to push down the gas pedal, the brake pedal, the clutch pedal, I can move this lever from 'P' to 'D', and can move the steering wheel all the way from left to right. I must be a pretty good driver."
I think most of those folks are talking about basic reliability testing. The x,000 rounds is just the test drive period while they prove the gun WORKS well. That doesn't have much to do with their own proficiency and ability to fight with the gun.
Great! Where are you? I'm sure we can find something that meets those requirements.
Shawnpatrick
Member
My issue is time. There are appleseed events near me that I would love to attend but I'm a single dad with a 2 year old. I would need to be willing to give up a Saturday with my son plus track down someone else to watch him.
undeRGRound
Member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2013
- Messages
- 107
Great Reply, SAM!
I have seen many folks equate muscle memory and shooting proficiency with the 4 figure round counts. Glad you destroyed that fallacy... Kinda like the young mother who asked why her mother cut the end off the roast. "My mother always did it, so it must work!" So the girl asks her grandmother why she did it.
"Because the pan was too short, dear!"
As far as location, I am outside of Terre Haute, Indiana. Something in Indianapolis would be about my maximum radius. (but I prefer LOCAL-Local) Thanks for the help!
(currently unemployed, construction hack LOL!) You know the story, I got the time, but I don't have the money
Our #1 (imo) LGS here is going to try and get an indoor range, and when they do, I will ask about a discounted or FREE membership there. I have dropped 5 figure$ there in 2013. So it isn't "so much" about the money for training, but about quality and scheduling.
I have seen many folks equate muscle memory and shooting proficiency with the 4 figure round counts. Glad you destroyed that fallacy... Kinda like the young mother who asked why her mother cut the end off the roast. "My mother always did it, so it must work!" So the girl asks her grandmother why she did it.
"Because the pan was too short, dear!"
As far as location, I am outside of Terre Haute, Indiana. Something in Indianapolis would be about my maximum radius. (but I prefer LOCAL-Local) Thanks for the help!
(currently unemployed, construction hack LOL!) You know the story, I got the time, but I don't have the money
Our #1 (imo) LGS here is going to try and get an indoor range, and when they do, I will ask about a discounted or FREE membership there. I have dropped 5 figure$ there in 2013. So it isn't "so much" about the money for training, but about quality and scheduling.
Of course time and money are big reasons. But I also know, from personal experience, that there is a lot of truth in the articles Fred linked to in the OP.
I'm a competitive guy and don't like looking bad. I'm also not the most athletic sort. Academic stuff is one thing for me, but performing physically is quite another. I've been anxious before pretty much every class I've ever taken and spent at least a little of my preparation time trying to figure out how I could cancel without losing too much face.
I know that for many years I put off taking that high performance driving class I always thought about, because it was more fun thinking that I was good than actually going out and seeing whether or not I was any good.
But I took that high performance driving class, and I've taken many shooting class, because I learn things and improve. I've concluded that the anxiety is a fair price to pay for the education.
Of course, one only has to read some of the threads we've had here on training to see the range of rationalizations folks have for not getting any.
I'm a competitive guy and don't like looking bad. I'm also not the most athletic sort. Academic stuff is one thing for me, but performing physically is quite another. I've been anxious before pretty much every class I've ever taken and spent at least a little of my preparation time trying to figure out how I could cancel without losing too much face.
I know that for many years I put off taking that high performance driving class I always thought about, because it was more fun thinking that I was good than actually going out and seeing whether or not I was any good.
But I took that high performance driving class, and I've taken many shooting class, because I learn things and improve. I've concluded that the anxiety is a fair price to pay for the education.
Of course, one only has to read some of the threads we've had here on training to see the range of rationalizations folks have for not getting any.
Potatohead
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2013
- Messages
- 5,375
Can you keep your brass? If not, that's enough reason right there for me. I couldn't bear the thought of losing that much brass.
Guess you could always go the steel route.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
There usually is plenty of time at the end of a day of class to pick up your brass if you feel like it. I suppose some ranges, especially indoor ranges, have some rules against that, but I don't know that any trainers themselves do.
Even so, like some big shooting matches which are "lost brass" events, it is just part of the total investment. If losing the few dollars worth of brass is enough to keep you from attending a training event, class, or match, you might want to check your priorities -- or save up a few dollars more so you can cover the replacement cost of the brass you lose.
Even so, like some big shooting matches which are "lost brass" events, it is just part of the total investment. If losing the few dollars worth of brass is enough to keep you from attending a training event, class, or match, you might want to check your priorities -- or save up a few dollars more so you can cover the replacement cost of the brass you lose.
I did the MAG20 class last year. I am not aware of anything better but I would do it again. I attended a 7 hour seminar with Lt Col. Grossman last year as well... although I wouldn't consider it "legal" training so much as a seminar on violent behavior... although recognizing violent behavior in lieu of professional training can translate into a justification for preempting the use of force in self-defense as was discussed in Ayoob's class.
I didn't suggest one-or-the-other. No problem with doing both. I just put lower priority on a shooting class because it likely means paying 500 for the class, 650 for the flight, 400 for hotel and 50 per day for beer. I spend enough time at the local range to feel comfortable with my gun handling abilities. If I knew of someone local that had an outstanding reputation with a handgun, sure I'd go. More education is better than less.
My main point is, if someone has the time and money then rock-on. For me, knowing that most assaults are point-blank.... I would be more inclined to stick with range work and maybe practice point-shooting.
In addition to legal training I would put combatives training ahead of advanced pistol work... combatives as taught by Lee Morrison or Kelly McCann. Its more likely you'll need skills to get out of a fight where pulling or displaying a firearm might not be legal.
Again, depends on personal goals and time/money resources available.
I didn't suggest one-or-the-other. No problem with doing both. I just put lower priority on a shooting class because it likely means paying 500 for the class, 650 for the flight, 400 for hotel and 50 per day for beer. I spend enough time at the local range to feel comfortable with my gun handling abilities. If I knew of someone local that had an outstanding reputation with a handgun, sure I'd go. More education is better than less.
My main point is, if someone has the time and money then rock-on. For me, knowing that most assaults are point-blank.... I would be more inclined to stick with range work and maybe practice point-shooting.
In addition to legal training I would put combatives training ahead of advanced pistol work... combatives as taught by Lee Morrison or Kelly McCann. Its more likely you'll need skills to get out of a fight where pulling or displaying a firearm might not be legal.
Again, depends on personal goals and time/money resources available.
Mike1234567
member
Lack of money.
Health issues.
Health issues.
Hangingrock
Member
Personally I think the anxiety thing is over stated. Experience is based on judgments good, indifferent, and bad. At some point you are going to look like a fool. It happens get over it. Everybody has a different approach some see a glass of water as half full, others see it as half empty, and some see the glass as being to big. Everyone has a different view point of life. With that said so be it.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
I'll have to look at the links later when I get off work, but I should imagine that there are a few big factors that drive people in this area:
1. What the guns they own are for. People who target shoot, plink, or hunt are probably very unlikely to go to a "gun school".
2. Scheduling conflicts. Like it or not, these schools take time and many people already have a lot on their schedules for other activities, especially if they're part of a family. School events/projects, scouting, household work/maintenance, vehicular work/maintenance, family vacations, work schedule, and more.
3. Finances. Whether it makes sense or not, finances make or break a lot of people. Yes, it makes little sense to pay out $500 or more for a gun and not consider spending a commensurate amount for the equally important training courses to learn to effectively use that gun. But that's a fact of human behavior that many people will spend more money on more guns far easier than they will for any money on an "expensive gun school". In one, a person walks away with a physical gun to show for their money. In the other they walk away several hundred dollars lighter with nothing to physically show for it.
I'll go through the links later.
1. What the guns they own are for. People who target shoot, plink, or hunt are probably very unlikely to go to a "gun school".
2. Scheduling conflicts. Like it or not, these schools take time and many people already have a lot on their schedules for other activities, especially if they're part of a family. School events/projects, scouting, household work/maintenance, vehicular work/maintenance, family vacations, work schedule, and more.
3. Finances. Whether it makes sense or not, finances make or break a lot of people. Yes, it makes little sense to pay out $500 or more for a gun and not consider spending a commensurate amount for the equally important training courses to learn to effectively use that gun. But that's a fact of human behavior that many people will spend more money on more guns far easier than they will for any money on an "expensive gun school". In one, a person walks away with a physical gun to show for their money. In the other they walk away several hundred dollars lighter with nothing to physically show for it.
I'll go through the links later.
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