Why Don't more People Go To Gun School?

[Derek Zeanah]

I think there are a number of reasons. Or at least there were for me:

• Cost. It's expensive, and therefore it's something that needs to be budgeted for.
• Little perceived value / Arrogance. I spent time as infantry and thought I knew how to use a firearm effectively and safely. It took a trip to Gunsite to discover how little I really knew. You don't know what you're missing until you've gone to training. I think this explains why so few people have trained, but those that have seem to go to multiple courses.
• Time. Family obligations mean it's not easy to take a week off to attend a course across the country. When discussing vacations it's the rare wife that says "sure, and I'd like to go to Gunsite with you."

Lots of people would like to go, and few do. It's a shame, but it's really hard to put a value on this kind of training until you've done it, so...

 

[GBExpat]

Why Don't more People Go To Gun School?

<shrug> In my case the issues are Time & Money & Zero Interest in taking a Course in a Gun School.

Dad got me started with firearms over 50 years ago and, wherever I have lived over the years, I made sure to find some land where I could shoot (I much prefer open/farm land to ranges) ... the last ~25 years on the west side of our ancestral farm with a "range" in the back yard. I got my first in a long series of Carry Licenses when I was in VaBeach in 1975.

I am satisfied that I shoot well enough for my purposes and feel no urge to take any courses.

Heck, when VA became a Shall Issue state, I was de-lighted to find that my prior VA Carry Permits would allow me to skip having to set aside some of my extremely-limited (at the time) freetime to take a CHP Course.

 

[Comrade Mike]

A lot of the "tactical ones" are an expensive way to be told you're low speed high drag and you should pay them to attend another course. I've seen the videos out of a couple schools and a lot of it is practicing Mall ninja nonsense that earns you your cool guy card.

I've seen some of the more reserved/ practical ones that may be worth taking but it's a $$$$ issue.

 

[Sam1911]

A lot of the "tactical ones" are an expensive way to be told you're low speed high drag and you should pay them to attend another course. I've seen the videos out of a couple schools and a lot of it is practicing Mall ninja nonsense that earns you your cool guy card.

I'm not going to argue with that, I don't think, but can you perhaps give some examples? If you don't want to mention the trainers or schools by name, maybe suggest some of the things you've seen taught that were Mall ninja nonsense?

We do rely on each other to vet and review instructors and schools and help us use our money and time wisely. I've no desire to go to a place that's teaching completely useless movie-stunt stuff.

I've seen a few things in reviews and videos that were dangerous, a few that were unsound or even laughable. But in the training world that stuff seems to be fairly rare, and rather self-policing.

 

[tomrkba]

$300 for FPF Training in Virginia. $250 for 1,000 rounds of 9mm and you will have 300 or so left over. $20 in gas during the commute and $20 for lunch and snacks.

$600 is far less than what the average defendant pays.

I am satisfied that I shoot well enough for my purposes and feel no urge to take any courses.

Most people think they know what they need to know about gun fighting and the aftermath. What they do not know will get them prison time. For example, we must now positively assert our Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. We must state that to the police and then be quiet. Communication past that point is now assumed to mean the suspect waives the right to remain silent. Yes, it is tyranny, but we will have to operate under the rules once the police arrive. There are many examples of this, but most people think those details are not important enough to think about.

I have also heard people state that they would not attend training because they may disagree with the instructor. They would rather operate in ignorance based upon their ignorance of what the instructor will say in a class they have yet to attend. It takes a special sort of person to think like that.

Lots of people would like to go, and few do. It's a shame, but it's really hard to put a value on this kind of training until you've done it, so...

I hear you. I just go through two minutes of police questioning with them and review their answers. Most of them would talk themselves into jail. Most get it after that.

 

[tomrkba]

It all depends on the agency and/or academy. But realistically, none of us would be satisfied with the training cops get, or the proficiency they're required to achieve.

I think Sam will agree: most police firearm training is box checking for civil liability. Most cops treat their sidearm as a "thing" on their belt that they would rather do without. I have seen this mentality in every place I have lived. One of my Texas neighbors was the worst: not only could he not hit a barn from the inside, his Colt Gold Cup did not function!

 

[tomrkba]

As far as location, I am outside of Terre Haute, Indiana. Something in Indianapolis would be about my maximum radius. (but I prefer LOCAL-Local) Thanks for the help!
(currently unemployed, construction hack LOL!) You know the story, I got the time, but I don't have the money

Sand Burr Gun Ranch!

Save your lunch money and reload your ammo!

 

[rondog]

I know how to shoot, and I know gun safety. I never really understood the need people feel for all this combat or gunfighting training.

To me it's kinda like race car driver training - sure, it's cool, but when are you ever going to drive a race car? To each their own I guess.

 

[David E]

I would rather spend time and money on legal training. Knowing when to shoot someone and how to stay out of prison is better than being a better shot at zero to 12 inches from the target. Depends on a person's priorities...

Yet again, we have someone placing Problem #2 (legal aftermath) ahead of Problem #1 (surviving the encounter.)

Do I need to say it? I guess so: if you don't survive the encounter, then nothing else matters.

Yes, it's all about Priorities. Some folks might want to out them in sequential order.

 

[conw]

Yet again, we have someone placing Problem #2 (legal aftermath) ahead of Problem #1 (surviving the encounter.)

Do I need to say it? I guess so: if you don't survive the encounter, then nothing else matters.

But it is so much easier to just pretend that you won't need any training.

Quite clearly to me, from their post history in other threads, a lot of people posting that their reason is "money" here can find money to spend on a 2nd or 10th gun.

I'd say training simply isn't a priority and while budget may be limited if you can afford 2-3 guns you can afford 1 gun and a training class or two.

As for underlying reasons I think a few posters hit the nail on the head. Anxiety, concern about the pressure of possible embarrassment or a sense of competition, perhaps a sneaking suspicion that a few hundred or thousand rounds sent downrange in self directed practice might have been building bad habits rather than reinforcing good ones. Who wants to pay to learn that when you can get a new toy and just not think about it?

There is also a lot of misinformation being stated by some people who self-admittedly haven't worked with good (or any) instructors, so I'd add that "not knowing what you don't know" seems to be a factor.

 

[GBExpat]

I am satisfied that I shoot well enough for my purposes and feel no urge to take any courses.

Most people think they know what they need to know about gun fighting and the aftermath. What they do not know will get them prison time.

Keeping abreast of such information is important ... but a great deal of information on the subject(s) is readily available without ever taking a single "Gun School" course.

 

[Hangingrock]

I’m not being dismissive with the need for training but must ask the following. Who trained Jeff Cooper but especially who trained Charles Askins?

He-Askins was involved in numerous gunfights accounting for the demise of at least 19 individuals’. Cooper’s experience was more limited to naval gunfire survey after action since he commanded the Marine detachment on the USS Pennsylvania. His primary duties was not direct ground combat but apparently he was involved in shooting incidents that accounted for 3 individual enemy combatants. Cooper went on to formulate and espouse The Modern Technique.

Both men were more self-taught and combative (mind set) as opposed to being trained which made them exceptions to the rule that most individuals require some format of training.

 

[heeler]

I do well enough that I would be willing to spend $4-$500 on good training provided it was with in 300 miles of me.
Of course at that point it would mean money for lodging and food as well as gas to get there and back.
In fact this very afternoon I looked into one near Dallas which is under 300 miles from Houston.
But again the website gave me the impression of total combat training.
Which I am not interested in.

 

[Sam1911]

I think Sam will agree: most police firearm training is box checking for civil liability. Most cops treat their sidearm as a "thing" on their belt that they would rather do without. I have seen this mentality in every place I have lived. One of my Texas neighbors was the worst: not only could he not hit a barn from the inside, his Colt Gold Cup did not function!

I DO agree. One of the very best shooters I've ever gotten to know is a Detective Sargent with the NJSP. He said once, "If you ask a cop which he'd rather have, a new gun or a new pen, he'll take the pen. It's something he'll actually USE."

That's true, and it isn't even a prejudicial statement. Police training has to cover a VAST amount of stuff, and only a very, very little of it involves firing a weapon.

 

[browningguy]

I'm not going to argue with that, I don't think, but can you perhaps give some examples? If you don't want to mention the trainers or schools by name, maybe suggest some of the things you've seen taught that were Mall ninja nonsense?

How about when the "well known", but seemingly crooked as a stick, trainer was espousing "Position Sul" as the latest and greatest thing ever for house clearing. He takes a perfectly good carry position, for working in tandem as part of an entry team, then tries to make it into something for a single person to use in house clearing or general gunfighting. All done in an effort to separate fools from their money. And it apparently worked well for that, I still see ninja wannabees talking about it on the interwebz at times.

Like many others here I got my training from a lifetime of shooting and hunting, and 6 years in the military in the 70's. I shoot 3 gun events several times a year, and the odd IDPA event just to keep in practice with moving and shooting. I can afford it but would never even consider these courses going for $1k and up, shooting 300-500 rounds a day for 2 days.

On the other hand my youngest daughter just received her CHL last month and prior to the CHL course I sent her to Basic Defensive Pistol for Women at a local place in Houston, then last weekend sent her to the more advanced Defensive Pistol for Women. But that's simply because she had no prior military training and after meeting the instructor I felt he would do a fair job of teaching her the basics. The price was very reasonable and total ammo for the two courses was 350 rounds. I felt that cost was justified because of her lack of experience and the fact that she would listen to an instructor more than me. I also believe the two courses separated by 4 weeks helped her retain what she learned better.

 

[newfalguy101]

Cost, time

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Who trained Jeff Cooper but especially who trained Charles Askins...

1. Aside from his early years as a hunter and duty in the Marines, Jeff Cooper was active with other shooters laying the foundations for IPSC. Starting in the mid-1960s he and others, including Thell Reed, Eden Carl, Ray Chapman, and Jack Weaver began holding regular competitions in the San Bernardino Mountains of Southern California. They were experimenting with techniques to more effectively use the handgun for self defense.
   
   In a sense, they, and other participants, trained each other. That experience, spanning almost 20 years led to the Modern Technique of the Pistol and the founding by Col. Cooper of Gunsite in the mid-1970s.
   
   
2. Charles Askins, Jr. was first taught to shoot as a child by his father, an avid hunter and soldier who served in Cuba and the Philippines.
   
   The younger Askins joined the Border Patrol and regularly participated in organized handgun competition. He was a noted competitor in Bullseye. He also served in the Army.
   
   
3. Both Jeff Cooper and Charles Askins had rich and varied shooting lives. They were active participants in communities of shooters who shared knowledge and coached each other. What they learned they learned from their peers over their lifetimes.
   
   
4. When we go to classes we have the opportunity to learn from instructors who themselves learned what they know through both their own experiences and the shared experiences of their instructors and their colleagues.
   
   
5. Part of the advantage that Jeff Cooper and Charles Askins had was the opportunity to participate in an enormous pool of shared knowledge and experience. And an advantage we have going to school is the opportunity to share in an even larger pool of shared knowledge and experience.
   
   
6. The senior instructor for my first class at Gunsite was Jeff Cooper.

 

[Sam1911]

Who trained Jeff Cooper but especially who trained Charles Askins?

Well, they certainly had their guiding lights. But they were very fortunate enough to be granted the time and ability to develop their understanding and abilities through much study and expended ammo. Before someone a little better/faster/evil-er put them in the ground.

Better men than they (meaning no disrespect to either) went to their graves before they built the skill and knowledge to avoid trouble and/or out-shoot the adversary.

But the good Colonels were lucky not to meet a bad man who was better than they, and were gifted and fast learners, and they spent millions of rounds and decades of time working on their skills and surrounding themselves with others skilled and visionary in these matters to work out the best practices they could develop through the courses of their lives.

And since their days passed, we've carried that learning process farther and farther along into new generations of teachers and students.
Why would we not avail ourselves of all that effort, and the millions of hours, rounds, and dollars that have been expended figuring these things out? Why would we insist we can start from scratch and try to reinvent the wheel on our own?

Can you stumble upon sufficient fighting-with-a-gun skills (along with the legal understandings, ADEE practices, etc. that make up a well-rounded defensive mindset) on your own? Sure. Just as you could sit down and beat Gary Casperov at a game of chess after reading a book and watching Searching for Bobby Fisher. It could happen. Maybe he'd have a bad day and you'd get lucky. Or as you could coach your kid's football team to the state championships, using a "Complete Idiot's Guide" book and catching the second half of Rudy one Saturday on Showtime. Or you could maybe hop in that Winston Cup car and..., you know, you're pretty good at getting to the grocery store in the ol' hatchback ...

Could you be good enough with what you figure out on your own? Yeah. Heck, there's little old ladies who fend off home-invaders with a single-shot .22 that was loaded by their late husband in 1979 and left rusting on the porch since then... (I read it in the Armed Citizen dontcha know?) ... but you might really blow it, too, and the stakes are high.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Why Don't more People Go To Gun School?

A. Most don't care.
B. And the few that do don't have the money.

I've been one of the lucky few that turned shooting into my avocation and both my wife and I have great paying jobs.

Thus I have been to many shooting schools and competed for many years in IDPA and IPSC as well as NRA rifle and pistol matches.

But I am defiantly in the minority. Way in the minority.

rondog,

I've once held a man at gunpoint for the cops (burglar of my parents house) and once two of us chased down a purse snatcher in the Virgin Islands.

It does happen.

Deaf

 

[bratch]

I know how to shoot, and I know gun safety. I never really understood the need people feel for all this combat or gunfighting training.

To me it's kinda like race car driver training - sure, it's cool, but when are you ever going to drive a race car? To each their own I guess.

I'm headed to bed so this is a drive by posting. Tom Givens has over 60 students who've had to "drive the race car". Depending on your location it could be a much higher probability than expected.

I've taken classes from a long list of trainers and have narrowed it down to a smaller group I really enjoy learning from. These classes are geared for CCW and civilians everyday lives, no mall ninja stuff or swat tactics since I'm not on a team.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I’m not being dismissive with the need for training but must ask the following. Who trained Jeff Cooper but especially who trained Charles Askins?

He-Askins was involved in numerous gunfights accounting for the demise of at least 19 individuals’. Cooper’s experience was more limited to naval gunfire survey after action since he commanded the Marine detachment on the USS Pennsylvania. His primary duties was not direct ground combat but apparently he was involved in shooting incidents that accounted for 3 individual enemy combatants. Cooper went on to formulate and espouse The Modern Technique.

Both men were more self-taught and combative (mind set) as opposed to being trained which made them exceptions to the rule that most individuals require some format of training.

Well they were not exactly self-taught.

Askins and Jordan both went to the police academy before being a Border Patrolman. And both went to the military in WW2 (Askins in the U.S. Army, Jordan in the USMC where he went Iwo Jima.)

Cooper went to the USMC and ended up on Guadalcanal. Yes he was also on the ground. He as wrote about the three men he was able to observe the shot (Japanese) in combat.

But also, they all were competition shots. Yes they competed in matches (Askins pistol, Jordan shotgun, and Cooper started IPSC!)

Yes they learned shooting before those times but they honed their skills in both civilian police and military.

Deaf

 

[conw]

Another factor about good training is that by participating we tap into a collective knowledge base.

The benefits of that extend past the more obvious"best way" to do things that could ostensibly be self taught through reading and video, and actually enables us to learn from others' mistakes without making them ourselves. In some cases the men who codified aspects of the collective knowledge base derived some aspects from watching others make mistakes, often fatal mistakes.

Tom Givens covers this very well in his lecture. He actually asserts that some of the most important lessons are not self evident and that within the 20th century many hard won lessons were learned, forgotten as some men died, relearned through trial and painful error again, and are now better codified and have allowed for a lot of evolution but that the evolution was not inevitable and was the result of careful preservation and curation of what was learned in strife, collectively.

 

[Hangingrock]

Deaf Smith my question posed concerning Askins & Cooper was more rhetorical in other words to make a point.

Deaf Smith two corrections if I may without being overly disagreeable or if we must be let us simply agree to disagree while maintaining civility.

1.) Askins was a superb shot but what made him decisive in shooting incidents was his demeanor or other words his mental makeup. I have a file of correspondence with Askins. He could shoot before joining the Border Patrol. At one point he was the Instructor of Marksmanship for the Border Patrol. The Army taught him next to nothing about marksmanship or fighting for that matter. Askins during WW2 was an ordinance officer in charge of recovery of damaged armored vehicles on the battlefield. In Vietnam he was in charge of the marksmanship training program for the fledging South Vietnamese Army. He covers this in his book “The Unrepentant Sinner”. Yes there were shooting incidents in WW2 and Viet-Nam but the context is unique to Askins and his combative nature.

2.) Cooper commanded the Marine Detachment on the USS Pennsylvania. Cooper was never on Guadalcanal and the Pennsylvania was never near Guadalcanal. This period is covered in the book titled Jeff Cooper the Soul and the Spirit My Fathers Story by Lindy Cooper Wisdom. (Chapter 12 Early War)

 

[9mmepiphany]

PS: I would attend a good training school if one were:

1. LOCAL
2. AFFORDABLE
3. ON WEEKENDS

I used to travel across the country with one of the best shooting instructors offering this. We'd show up at your local range, charge less than the cost of a new pistol for 3 days of instruction, and our classes ran from Friday through Sunday. The major resistance to filling the classes was 1) we taught how to hit a target quickly and keep the gun running; as opposed to "tactical stuff" and 2) we didn't shoot enough rounds of ammo (200/day).

I now instruct on a 1:1 basis and we seldom go over 150rds in a 4 hour block...clients are always surprised...but it is the quality of what you learn from each shot rather than filling dead time (which is what happens in a group class). I do charge $70-$100/hour

It has been touched on already, but it is completely true that most people don't even know what they don't know. They have no idea how inadequate their skill level is because they haven't been willing to be challenged to find out.

I consider myself a capable shooter and also a perpetual student...there is also something to learn and a skill to be improved.

There are some real jewels of instructor out there. They charge anywhere from $130 to $500 per day with $250 being a fairly common figure. Much more important than an instructors experience is their ability to teach what they know and to improve their student's skills

 

[JohnKSa]

The cost of Training as an example using Gunsite handgun courses 250 – 350 & 499. Basic tuition for the three courses combined total is $5445.00.

Ammunition requirement for all three courses is a total of 3300 rounds standard ammunition and 500 rounds frangible ammunition.

This is an attempt at starting to set up a false dichotomy.

It does make the point that SOME training is expensive. It also makes the point that if you take a LOT of training, costs will add up.

However, not ALL training is expensive.

Yes, if you want to take 15 days of training at one of the premier gun training organizations in the nation, you shouldn't expect to pay a pittance. But that doesn't mean that your only choice is paying $5K for training or not taking any classes at all.