Why it's time to stop recommending 308Win, tips for new "long range" shooters.

[MTMilitiaman]

I love the .308 Win. If I could only own one rifle cartridge to do everything I need a rifle to do, it would be a .308 Win. The .308 dominated competition for a long time. It is still the cartridge we probably know the most about. When an ammunition manufacture comes out with a new match projectile, they almost always load it in .308 first. Are there a plethora of cartridges out there that offer better ballistics in the same action? For sure, but the .308 has been getting it done for a couple generations now, and the fact that there is better doesn't make the .308 any less effective. If you are building a dedicated long range gun, sure, maybe it is worth it for you to pick a more obscure or specialized cartridge. But if you are doing more than shooting plates or paper at long range, the .308 still has advantages. It is still easier to find hunting ammunition or defensive ammunition for the .308. You can still buy bulk M80 ball ammo that will still do 90% of what most people need from a rifle out to at least a quarter mile. And you still have a better selection of rifles and models in .308 to reflect its versatility. Not dissing the 6.5s-- I completely understand the advantages of superior ballistic coefficients. But I might still recommend someone get a .308 first because you still have more options in that cartridge.

 

[RussellC]

I fundamentally disagree. When practicing for precision shooting at long range (even 300-400 yards), why practice with crap ammo that “may” give you 2-3 MOA? How do you even know your doing it right?

Well, I dont shoot crap ammo, not worth the headache to me. Plus I reload/handload which pulls this argument in another, not the point of this thread direction... The main thing I can think of that is contra to my decision to start with .308, is it will require yet another set of Reddings fine but expensive competition micrometer dies when I go to 6.5 Creedmoor, ouch!

Russellc

 

[joed]

Another point for the .308 is I believe it can be used in more long range events. At least it could the last time I checked, but that was a while ago.

 

[NickEllis]

I think TheNextGeneration's point holds, but only in a few fairly limited conversations:

(1) The "new" shooter is actually an "experienced" shooter, who wants to transition specifically into long-range shooting.
(2) The shooter knows that this rifle will be somewhat limited in general application; I don't think there's much doubt that the .308 is a more appropriate general use rifle, that does "pretty good" for everything from medium-size game to long-range shooting. There are obviously better specialized platforms. Sure, you could buy a Unimog for off-road, and a Corvette for the highway; or, you could buy an F150 for general all around transport uses. The .308 is basically the F150 of the cartridge world.

I do like that with the .308 I don't have to change out my baseplates for reloading. I like having highly standardized loads I can put together for pretty much anyone who wants reloads, without having to match to specific barrels. If "generic" is a bad thing to you, then it's good to go with something more specialized.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Another point for the .308 is I believe it can be used in more long range events. At least it could the last time I checked, but that was a while ago.

like open and tactical division? ive never shot production so i have no idea what the rules are but im assuming thats what people want their 6.5's for when they shoot prs.

 

[Sunray]

"...the 6.5 does it better..." No cartridge does anything better than another. Especially just hitting a target.
Now take your 6.5 to a match somewhere in RinkyDinkville and discover you forget your ammo on the kitchen table. You think you're going to find 6.5mm anything in RinkyDinkville?
"...ammunition from a range of manufacturers..." Nobody who has a choice uses factory ammo. Too expensive and is like buying an off the rack suit. Sorta fits, but not quite.
"...actual cost of being a long range shooter..." It's a case of, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." Lotta stuff like that.

 

[cdb1]

Unrelated and not really on point in this thread, if ever faced with another gun/ammo famine, not doubt .308 will be easier to find ammo and reloading supplies.

Based on historical data the opposite would be true.

 

[Walkalong]

there is no reason to choose 308 Win.

Longer barrel life? More brass selections, more projectile selections.

Not everyone needs the cutting edge to have fun shooting long distance. And the cutting edge changes so much recently.

The .308 still has a lot going for it, regardless of what people at the top are choosing today. No reason at all to buy one is a bit melodramatic.

 

[benzy2]

I fundamentally disagree. When practicing for precision shooting at long range (even 300-400 yards), why practice with crap ammo that “may” give you 2-3 MOA? How do you even know your doing it right?

It's no different trying to shrink a 8MOA group to 3MOA than it is to shrink a 6MOA group to 1MOA. Especially of you can have a known good shooter put a few groups down range to give a baseline to shoot for. Starting with better components makes it easier to see when an equipment issue presents but plenty can be learned shooting less than match ammo and early on when you aren't getting near as much out of the ammo as possible the difference is less in what you can learn and more in what you can brag about. Budget not being important, load me up the most accurate ammo at any cost.

But that's my problem with this entire debate. A new shooter isn't typically dropping enough on the rifle, glass, ammo, bags, rest/bipod, spotting scope, reloading equipment etc to get to the point where they notice the difference in a .308 or a 6.5mm. You're looking at at least a $2,000 investment of not realistically closer to $5,000 without getting into custom. If that's reasonable to the shooter, than get the best for the game at any cost. If not, and for most of us that's a not, going with something more reasonable all around to test the waters makes sense over jumping full in.

 

[Varminterror]

I got the .308 because I havent shot 1000 yards YET, and I have lots of practice to do first. Most of that will be at 100 yard, I have to travel just a little to get to 300 yards.

Using this as an example of a very common sentiment I see in this 308win vs. 6.5 creedmoor discussion, not trying to pick on you in particular, mi amigo...

SO MANY guys use "I don't shoot far enough where higher BC is really an advantage, so the 308win is better for me" as their argument against the 6.5 creed. But there are a lot of fundamental problems with that argument, because even at 100yrds, there are distinct advantages for the 6.5creed over the 308win. Does it matter MORE at long range where BC matters more, sure, but they're not on a level playing field even at only 100yrds. At worst, it's ALMOST level, but it remains to be tipped in favor of the 6.5creed, however slightly.

Next Gen's post seems largely to focus on factory ammo prices, but a guy uses ~10% less powder in the 6.5 Creed than in a 308win, about a penny and a half to 2 cents per shot - on a 15-20 cent powder charge. Ends up saving about $45 per barrel life, in other words, about 10% of the barrel cost would be free. Not a lot, but not a level playing field.

More importantly, the recoil is much lighter for the 6.5creed. Guys will say silly things like "the 308win runs a 155grn bullet about the same speed as the 6.5 creed runs a 140grn bullet, so they're about the same..." But when you actually shoot the rifles side by side, you feel the difference. When you run the actual numbers for recoil, you see the 308win with a 155 actually has about 21% more recoil than the 6.5Creed with a 140grn, both running 2700fps. Folks forget that 15grn seems like a small number, but it's 10%, and the 308win is running 10% more powder, which contributes 2.7lb ft/sec in recoil momentum on its own. The 308win isn't difficult to shoot, but the 6.5 creed is easier.

I'll admit, I may be biased. I've used 243win, 6BR, 6 Dasher, 6.5x55, 7-08, 7maus, 260rem, 284, and 6.5-284 for many years as practice rifles, so the Creed coming onto the scene wasn't a new philosophy for me, as it might be for other old die hards which have been loading 308win's for the last 50yrs...

Really - when a guy lands at "I don't shoot far enough for BC to matter," they still should be looking at the 6.5creed, or a lighter 6mm or even 22cal, NOT using that as justification to buy a 308win.

If you need to kill something at range, the 308win's heavier bullet will make the difference. Guys get caught up on the fact the 6.5 has more ENERGY at range, but they forget about momentum - newton wrote a law about conservation of MOMENTUM in impacts, not energy, for a reason...

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Complaining about the differences in recoil or ballistics between these cartridges for anything under half a mile seems to me like saying it's foolish to tie your shoes because velcro shoes are easier or complaining about the effort it takes to make a grilled cheese sandwhich because it isn't as fast as a PB&J.

The .308 has been the go-to competition and sniper round for decades and now something comes out marginally better so it's time to abandon a proven round? The .308 was never chosen because it was the best to begin with. It has always been adequate but not exceptional. But it so happens to provide a level of performance that has been standardized since jacketed projectiles and smokeless powder became a thing 120 years ago. A ~.30 cal bullet between 150 and 180 gr between 2400 and 2800 fps gets it done from taking the fight out of someone to ringing a gong at 1000 yards and putting meat in the freezer. If you need the absolute best for everything and can afford to specialize your rifles, fine. It's America and spending your money is still one way we are kinda-sorta "free." But some of us are more "if it's not broke, don't fix it." The .308 isn't broke and 6.5mm rounds shooting high BC bullets that shoot flatter and faster aren't new.

 

[Legionnaire]

I don't think the OP's suggestion was to "abandon" the .308. Rather, if a new-to-long-range shooter wants to get into the game and doesn't already have a .308, or (like me) has a .308 hunting rifle but wants a dedicated long-range rig, there are better options. I still have a very accurate .308 "target" rifle, but its .20-inch barrel limits its utility at long range. I also have a dedicated .308 hunting rifle. I won't abandon either one. But for shooting targets at extended ranges, I'll turn to the .260 Remington with a 26-inch barrel. It just performs better. And, like the OP, if a guy wants to get into the game for the first time, I'll definitely recommend the 6.5 CM over the .308, even though I retain my affection for the latter.

 

[mjsdwash]

there was a time when you could go into a gas station and buy 30-40 Krag. A time when you could get 44 rimfire. I bet there was a few people who said 30-03 was going to be the go to caliber forever. 222 magnum, 10mm, 41mag, 22lr (uggg) and many others were "always going to be easy to find". The 6.5C doesn't do much the 6.5 Swede doesn't, and hasn't for 100 years. The 6.5C seems to have a hell of a hard push from the industry though, and will probably be around for a long time, but I don't see the 308 going anywhere. Does the 6.5C really out perform the 6PPC anyway? The 308 allows new people more shooting time with that surpuls, even if at 200 yards. Or if you mean new to long range competitive only? Probably not asking for advice from the kinda people who shout 308! Im still not convinced the 6.5 offers decent barrel life. If its still mainstream in 30 years, maybe Ill upgrade from my 8x57.

 

[JO JO]

I think the 308 makes a lot of sense for a new rifle shooter but if one wants to get into long range shooting the .338 lapua with top notch glass is the way to go plenty of 1500 - 1800 hundred yard shoots made with this , but really a new shooter would be well served with a 308 , but long range does come down to money what is a new shooters budget $500 / $1000 / $3000 ?
I bet for a new shooter the difference in 308 to 6.5 mm at 100 to 500 or 1000 yards would be tiny if any but the 308 ammo is everywhere and is proven to take game of many sizes and will defend well too very functional caliber,
last week I was at a local range shooting my 308 with my hand loads the guy next to me was shooting a 28 nosler it think it was , range was 300 yards I easily had better groups then him , his ammo was $75 a box of 20 rounds mine maybe $10 a box of 20 just saying ,
if its a recoil issue the 243 and 7mm-08 have lots to offer too, only time will tell if the new calibers will make it main stream , the most new shooters I see anymore have a 223/5.56 I would say 90% of the rifles at the range is an AR

 

[jamesjames]

As a new shooter and a new to long range shooting person, I got started on .223 in a Rem 700P. Recoil was non-existent, ammo is cheap and plentiful, and as long as there's no cross wind (shooting before 10 a.m. most mornings), .223 in a 55 to 70 grain bullet is fine out to 500 yards and gets challenging at 6-700 yards. For learning the sport and not for competition with serious long distance honchos, .223 is a great place to start.

 

[Newtosavage]

I sometimes wonder what % of people who discuss long range rifles even have a "long range" to actually shoot on. I'd bet it's less than half.

 

[FL-NC]

Since I have a M24, a 5R, a customized PSS, a 7.62 OBR, ATRAG software, a SOTIC diploma, 3 trips to Canadian, Tx with Todd Hodnett, 6 trips to the sandbox with the M24 and SR25, and a goodly supply of 308 ammo- I'll stick with it for now.

 

[JO JO]

I sometimes wonder what % of people who discuss long range rifles even have a "long range" to actually shoot on. I'd bet it's less than half.

I think your correct some folks consider long rage 100 yards others consider it 1500 yards and some consider it somewhere in between,

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I sometimes wonder what % of people who discuss long range rifles even have a "long range" to actually shoot on. I'd bet it's less than half.

Not a problem in MT.

 

[Varminterror]

I sometimes wonder what % of people who discuss long range rifles even have a "long range" to actually shoot on. I'd bet it's less than half.

You're being too generous. It's a lot less than half.

 

[444]

I sometimes wonder what % of people who discuss long range rifles even have a "long range" to actually shoot on. I'd bet it's less than half.

It is probably a lot more than you think. I would say maybe 5% actually do it, forget about half. Finding a place to shoot at long range isn't that hard IF, again IF, you seriously look into doing it.
First of all, if you happen to live in the southwest US, you can shoot to infinity over 100s of thousands of square miles of totally uninhabited desert. That is where I spent most of my life. Then I moved to Ohio and I thought the idea of shooting past 200 yards would be very hard to do. First I found a club that had a 600 yard range. I joined it. It takes me an hour to get there, but this isn't something I am doing three times a week. Driving an hour once or twice a month to have fun isn't a big deal TO ME. Then I started talking to people about long range rifle shooting and found out there is a 1000 yard range about an hour and a half from my house. I probably went there a half dozen times this summer. Then one of my shooting buddies who made a living building custom cars ran into a guy at a car show who has access to a private 1200 yard range. Private as in, it is some guy who has a lot of money built a 1200 yard range and this guy my buddy met at the car show has the combination and permission to get in. It's one of the nicest ranges I have ever been to. That range is about an hour from my house. I probably went there also a half dozen times this summer and I am going there this Sunday. Once I started going to these places, I found out about a few more because these guys at these ranges are the guys who know about them (obviously). Talking to the local deer hunters probably won't get you anywhere.

Point is that it took me a few years to find a place to shoot long range here in the east, but it is doable IF you make the effort to find it.

I also wonder how many people that discuss long range shooting actually do any of it and take it seriously (not just the occasional.....hey I am going to hold six feet over that and see if I can hit it).

If you want to get into long range shooting.....seriously get into it........it is going to cost money. Probably not nearly as much as some people think, but it is going to cost money. So what ? What doesn't ?

 

[gdvan01]

... The .308 is basically the F150 of the cartridge world...

Well said, many don't take the time to look at overall options and it's funny because you see so many posts these days on some gun boards....."what's my best SHTF option..."
Maybe that's a little of a stretch in this particular context but you get the point...

...Not everyone needs the cutting edge to have fun shooting long distance. And the cutting edge changes so much recently.
...

And let's face it, who the flock can effectively keep up without breaking the bank?

... SOTIC diploma.....6 trips to the sandbox...and a goodly supply of 308 ammo- I'll stick with it for now.

This speaks volumes..I tip my hat to you Sir.

As long as I can bring my 700P and can contribute to the load with my OTM ammo (which is the only thing I feed it) I'll be more than happy to help you carry sh*t when the bell rings.

Not picking sides but I think you can see my lean here...but then again I'm an older guy...a little gray up top and a little fluffy in the middle. My training is from LEO experience; my attitude is from an Army (decorated Viet Nam veteran) CSM Father. I may not be able to move around like I used to but I'll mess you up with some .308.

Many valid points have been made and none can be summarily dismissed because let's face it: when the time comes I don't care what you bring to the fight, just know 'what-the-eff' you are doing.

We're ALL on the same side.

 

[M1key]

My local range goes to 1000 yards. Plenty of bubbas around here shoot surprisingly well with a variety of cartridges. The 6.5 Creedmore seems to be THE CARTRIDGE for all-around braggin' rights.

Me? I am happy to hit the plates at 500 with my various .308s (bolt and battle rifles). That cartridge is the heaviest I care to shoot anymore. Sold off my primo 40X last year because I don't shoot matches.

M

 

[cdb1]

No reason at all to buy one is a bit melodramatic.

Yep.

 

[Nature Boy]

If I can shoot 5 shot groups 1/2 MOA from 100 to 1,000 yards and all points in between, with a .308, why am I wrong to recommend it to someone else?