Why it's time to stop recommending 308Win, tips for new "long range" shooters.

[RussellC]

Based on historical data the opposite would be true.

The last famine, the first supplies I saw in pistol were S&W .40, in rifle, .308...long before .223 in these parts. .308 is a nato round, tons of military brass even if not the best for long range purposes. .30 caliber bullets abound. Where was the 6.5 CM? I must have missed it around here.

Russellc

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Well said, many don't take the time to look at overall options and it's funny because you see so many posts these days on some gun boards....."what's my best SHTF option..."
Maybe that's a little of a stretch in this particular context but you get the point...

..

What? You mean I can't buy the cheapest AR, with a cheap red dot or pop ups, never practice and not be able to shoot 1000 yards with 55 gr steel case crap ammo when SHTF?

I know too many think they can shoot a few times and be a Seal or sniper. But I guess those of us that get, one has to learn basics, then build on those skills over time and keep working understand that nothing is free.

 

[RussellC]

I sometimes wonder what % of people who discuss long range rifles even have a "long range" to actually shoot on. I'd bet it's less than half.

I'm certainly not there yet, thats for sure! I dont consider 100 yards long, its just whats available close to me. 300 yards is a little drive. 1000 yards? Havent found it around here unfortunately. I would be thrilled with 500. so put me in the bad half!

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

What? You mean I can't buy the cheapest AR, with a cheap red dot or pop ups, never practice and not be able to shoot 1000 yards with 55 gr steel case crap ammo when SHTF?

Of course a fellow can. He will look a little silly and hit nothing, but a fellow can! LOL

Russellc

 

[cdb1]

The last famine, the first supplies I saw in pistol were S&W .40, in rifle, .308...long before .223 in these parts. .308 is a nato round, tons of military brass even if not the best for long range purposes. .30 caliber bullets abound. Where was the 6.5 CM? I must have missed it around here.

Russellc

Where I live 9mm, .308, .223 and .22 were not to be found. Rounds like .270, .243, 25-06, cartridges that were not military in origin were much easier to source. 6.5 Creedmoor wasn't as popular as it is now and was just as scarce before Sandy Hook as it was during the panic buying.

 

[RussellC]

If I can shoot 5 shot groups 1/2 MOA from 100 to 1,000 yards and all points in between, with a .308, why am I wrong to recommend it to someone else?

I wish I had 1000 yards. I would have to get where I could hit a barn at 500 first, and I dont even have 500.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

Where I live 9mm, .308, .223 and .22 were not to be found. Rounds like .270, .243, 25-06, cartridges that were not military in origin were much easier to source.

I bought a 9mm Glock 17 in the heat of it. After a little more than 2 months I finally got some Winchester white box to shoot it with. I was really referring to supplies, meaning for reloading, but finished ammo was no better. Even Walmart only had shotgun shells! .22 is still not easy, but it springs up here and there.

Russellc

 

[cdb1]

I bought a 9mm Glock 17 in the heat of it. After a little more than 2 months I finally got some Winchester white box to shoot it with. I was really referring to supplies, meaning for reloading, but finished ammo was no better. Even Walmart only had shotgun shells! .22 is still not easy, but it springs up here and there.

Russellc

Gotcha.

 

[NWcityguy2]

As a counterpoint to my elitist rant, Ive shot against and been beaten by more experienced shooters running 308win in competitions. Although humbling, it's awesome to see what a seasoned shooter can do with a rifle/load combo known inside and out.

Do you have some competitive scores of your own to go with this advice?

 

[someguy2800]

"I like it" is a perfectly legitimate reason to prefer something.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

I bought a 9mm Glock 17 in the heat of it. After a little more than 2 months I finally got some Winchester white box to shoot it with. I was really referring to supplies, meaning for reloading, but finished ammo was no better. Even Walmart only had shotgun shells! .22 is still not easy, but it springs up here and there.

Russellc

That's horrible.

During the worse here ammo was hit or miss and reloading supplies were nowhere to be seen most of the time. If you could find something you grabbed it. Thankfully I wasn't shooting much so I was able to get a small supply of ammo. As things improved, I started shouting more, and got my reloading gear. And I was able to develop skills and some loads. Since then supplies are pretty much available anyplace that sells them. Plus I use RMR and Everglades for my bullets. I'll pick up primers when I can, and I'm hoping to place a big order for primers and powder when I have enough money saved to make it worthwhile.

 

[1stmarine]

The 308 Winchester loaded with premium latest generation bullets is not as different in trajectory and reach as many want us to believe.
The 6mm and 6.5mm sometimes fails to score in heavy steel gates at long ranges. Folks can remove those targets from the courses but those situations like the
needs in real life are going to be there at some point. 6mm and 6.5mm do not have the same momentum to tackle larger and heavier targets.
notice I am not talking about energy but momentum that is what gets things knock out. two different things.
The 308 W. can be loaded with 180gr bonded bullets and will produce a more momentum and wounding to harvest the largest game.
Something as simple as the 7mm-08 is a simple yet often overlooked improvement in terms of long range performance vs. any of the 6.5mm and the 308 itself.
Whether we like it or not the 308 continues to be the service round and it is a powerful and accurate round.

 

[RussellC]

That's horrible.

During the worse here ammo was hit or miss and reloading supplies were nowhere to be seen most of the time. If you could find something you grabbed it. Thankfully I wasn't shooting much so I was able to get a small supply of ammo. As things improved, I started shouting more, and got my reloading gear. And I was able to develop skills and some loads. Since then supplies are pretty much available anyplace that sells them. Plus I use RMR and Everglades for my bullets. I'll pick up primers when I can, and I'm hoping to place a big order for primers and powder when I have enough money saved to make it worthwhile.

I walked into a gun store in Nashville back then and was shocked to see stack of primers, which I couldnt fly back with and 9mm Berry's plated round nose, which I could fly back with. I got as many as I could carry! They actually had an AR upper on the wall!

I played the try to buy powder online before it disappeared out of your cart game. One day I got 8 lbs of Unique and thought I won the lottery. Thank heavens those days are over for now, but the dark side is busy.

And thank you to bds who started the "where are the reloading components" thread which I scanned 3 times a day!

Russellc

 

[bnolsen]

As a new shooter and a new to long range shooting person, I got started on .223 in a Rem 700P. Recoil was non-existent, ammo is cheap and plentiful, and as long as there's no cross wind (shooting before 10 a.m. most mornings), .223 in a 55 to 70 grain bullet is fine out to 500 yards and gets challenging at 6-700 yards. For learning the sport and not for competition with serious long distance honchos, .223 is a great place to start.

So you're saying that 223 is cheap and crappy enough with poor BC to help you learn how to shoot under various conditions and will show off bad technique, form and poor weather conditions at much shorter ranges. I actually kind of buy that.

 

[boom boom]

6.5 Creedmoor and its newer sibling the 6 mm are nice cartridges and in a modern rifle, with modern glass, and modern match ammo will shoot quite nicely.

My fun comes from shooting old battered military rifles using their issued iron sights which would make my poor old 6.5x55 Swedish Mausers and .30-06 1903's and 1917's grossly obsolete compared to today's modern rifles. The SMLE's and No. 4's are even more obsolete as the .303 dates from the age of blackpowder but those are just youngsters compared to the black powder long distance folks. That being said, folks have done amazing things with just those rifles in that configuration (far better than me I should add).

To me, the folks shooting 1000 yds using black powder and rifles (BCPR) designed in the 1800's are the cat's meow as far as distance shooting. That says something about the shooter and their talents.

 

[BigBore44]

I really wonder what would be being said about the 308 vs 6.5 if barrel life, and ammo availability, were the same. But, unfortunately, we can’t have that discussion....yet.

For learning the sport and not for competition with serious long distance honchos, .223 is a great place to start.

I completely agree with this. The ability to take the “flinch” out of the equation is very worth while. Also, there is a wide variety of ammunition available that is very accurate in most rifles. My T/C Venture in .223 is 1/2 MOA with Hornady 55gr PSP (I will gladly prove that to anyone) Price? 50 for $20. That makes it an excellent choice for the next step up from 22lr when I’m teaching new shooters proper shooting mechanics and breathing techniques.

I also agree that the 308 is still a very viable option for long range shooting. And the better bullets being produced today (Berger, Sierra Matchking, and Hornady ELD-X) continue to keep it in the hunt. Someday, the 6.5 may surpass the 308 in popularity of long range cartridges. But that day hasn’t come yet. If, IF it stays around long enough though, it just might. But in all honesty, by the time that day comes, there very likely will be a new kid on the block.

 

[cdb1]

Something as simple as the 7mm-08 is a simple yet often overlooked improvement in terms of long range performance vs. any of the 6.5mm and the 308 itself.

If that is true then I'd think most competition shooters would be using rifles in 7mm-08. I don't believe that's the case.

 

[jmorris]

But this is more about people who are looking specifically for an intro long-range rifle.

If that's what it's about, there are lots of rounds that will work for that. Some are better, some are not but I can introduce someone to long range rifle shooting with a .22lr and a 300 yard range.

 

[HankC]

"don't post about surplus 308 ammo"
Sure need to consider surplus ammo availability and price when something compare to 308. Surplus is a major selling point of 308, not just ammo, also reloading component cost. A new shooter should start with 308, learn to shoot well with cheap practice surplus ammo, then the low recoil 6.5 and 6 will be easy. Not many people can really take advantage of better ballistic of modern 6.5 or 6 and shoot at a range that really matters, but everyone feel the cost of shooing, lower cost ammo means more practice.

If you shoot 308 well, likely shoot 6/6.5 well but not the other way! If you have a 6.5C, you likely have a 308 or want one while there are many 7.62/308 military rifles out there. 308 shooters may never feel a need to go into 6.5 or 6.

 

[jmorris]

Any ratios of 1000 yard Palma match wins using .308 vs everything else?

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I sometimes wonder what % of people who discuss long range rifles even have a "long range" to actually shoot on. I'd bet it's less than half.

I wonder how many shoot at all.

 

[someguy2800]

Any ratios of cartridges allowed in 1000 yard palma matchs vs 308?

Honestly I'm not that big of a long range shooter as I only have about 600 yards of shooting available to me and I don't do that very often. For the majority of people like me that are just shooting steel or informally shooting groups at long range for fun I think the debate between the two cartridges is basically how much recoil do you want and how hard you want to hit the target. The recoil is going to depend on what rifle you are talking about. Are we talking about a big heavy varmint/target gun or a ruger american? My personal 308 is a savage BVSS that weighs 12 lbs and the recoil is a non issue.

As for ammo availability, yes 308 HUNTING ammo is available everywhere but 308 MATCH ammo is not. Since half of the 6.5 creedmore ammo made is match ammo pretty much anywhere you can find something like 308 gold medal match, your also likely to find match 6.5 creedmore ammo as well. All my local stores have it. Really guys, how many of you have every stopped at a gas station on the way to your 1000 yard match to pick up ammo?

 

[Gtscotty]

Any ratios of 1000 yard Palma match wins using .308 vs everything else?

Great ratios in F-TR too! It's just those pesky matches where there are other better options available where it is isn't as popular.

I have to agree with the OP, I would not recommend the .308 to anyone wanting to get into long range shooting around here. Pretty much everyone at our local matches is shooting a 6mm, 6.5mm, or 7mm of some kind, and not because they are all brainwashed. There are just better tools for this specific job, especially in the windy areas, where most longer range shooting is done. Even if someone wanted to start shooting matches with a .308, it would be a real disservice to recommend that they use cheap M80 or anything like that to save money. They will only be setting themselves up to get frustrated quickly. The truth is you have to pay to play, if you want to get decent at shooting longer ranges in the wind, start with a better caliber and be ready to feed it. If you want to start with a .308, be ready to feed it the very best (read expensive) bullets in order to try and keep up, and flush and thoughts of saving money over something like 6.5 CM, or if you handload, any of the 6mms, from your mind.

There are obviously plenty of areas where the .308/7.62 is a great choice: hunting larger game, where extra bullet weight can be handy, military use, where robust supply chains are far more important than incremental performance increases, short barrel suppressed use, etc.

 

[1stmarine]

If that is true then I'd think most competition shooters would be using rifles in 7mm-08. I don't believe that's the case.

Like everything in this world things are influenced by fashion.
Lapua, Hornday are great at marketing. Remington is a disaster at that.
I am not just talking about the 7mm-08 but the 260 too.
Some people still think the newer 6.5 calibers can do something the other two
cannot do that has no foundation other than defending the latest fashions.
They are all great calibers with nice brass and rifle offerings with all the marketing around them
but as far as calibers go, they offer no improvement in performance.
Remember the history of the 284 winchester.

 

[cdb1]

I've never felt handicapped by having a 6.5x55 instead of a 6.5 Creedmoor.