Why no .357 maximum rifles.

[someguy2800]

It would certainly be possible to shoot 357 mags in a 357 max lever action but you probably wouldn’t be impressed with the accuracy. Mine is pretty lackluster when shooting 357 mags, and the change in POI is pretty dramatic.

What apeals to me the most about the idea is you get a cartridge with equal killing power to a 30-30, (one could argue possibly more power but less range), but fit in the small handy 1892 Winchester or marlin 1894 action. That would be a sweat little rifle with an 18” barrel.

 

[d2wing]

Maybe because you can have a .35 Remington.

 

[someguy2800]

Maybe because you can have a .35 Remington.

Valid point although 357 maximum will actually out perform factory 35 Remington loads. When both are handloaded they are practically identical.

 

[CraigC]

It's a dead cartridge. One need only look at its history to understand why it's dead. It was designed for handgun silhouette shooting, same as the .375/.414/.445 SuperMags. When IHMSA changed the rules that allowed Freedom Arms, it was game over for the cartridges and the guns that chambered them. As stated above, the flagship Maximum was the Ruger and when idiots tried to turn them into rifles with light bullets and lots of ball powder, flame cutting ensued, the guns were eventually recalled, thousands of them destroyed and the rest is history. It carries that stigma with it today. This is why the industry is FAR more likely to develop new cartridges that more fully fill the role they're shooting for (like the .350Legend), rather than resurrecting dead ones (.357Max) that present unique engineering challenges, like the .357's rim.

 

[someguy2800]

There are three different companies making brass for it and its still a popular chambering for single shot rifles, so its certainly not dead, but I agree it has pretty much no chance of ever being chambered in a new production line gun.

 

[Varminterror]

We also really have to recognize where things are going - companies just aren’t developing rimmed cartridges, nor rifles to shoot them. The levergun market is shrinking, single shots have lost THE historical major player in that market, Ruger gave theirs up all but specialty runs too. Rims have been “out” for a long time. Ruger dropped their rotary mag rimmed cartridge bolt guns too. Man alive, a stretch mag series of Ruger 77/357max and 77/454c, even 77/445supermag would be phenomenal in my world! But alas, no such thing will ever come to be.

The .357max did fill a particular niche a lot of guys wanted filled, so having a modern option which fits into more modern platforms makes sense. Maybe not a HUGE market, but the foothold of hunters in 10% of US states which require straightwall cartridges is a great foundation market, on top of which the rest of us would just be gravy.

For me, personally, I’d love a 445supermag or at least 44mag analogy in an AR, so I’m crossing my fingers. I don’t mind the 450 and 458, but I’d really like to run .429” Swift A-Frames into some deer at about 1900fps from a 12” SBR.

 

[someguy2800]

We also really have to recognize where things are going - companies just aren’t developing rimmed cartridges, nor rifles to shoot them. The levergun market is shrinking, single shots have lost THE historical major player in that market, Ruger gave theirs up all but specialty runs too. Rims have been “out” for a long time. Ruger dropped their rotary mag rimmed cartridge bolt guns too. Man alive, a stretch mag series of Ruger 77/357max and 77/454c, even 77/445supermag would be phenomenal in my world! But alas, no such thing will ever come to be.

The .357max did fill a particular niche a lot of guys wanted filled, so having a modern option which fits into more modern platforms makes sense. Maybe not a HUGE market, but the foothold of hunters in 10% of US states which require straightwall cartridges is a great foundation market, on top of which the rest of us would just be gravy.

For me, personally, I’d love a 445supermag or at least 44mag analogy in an AR, so I’m crossing my fingers. I don’t mind the 450 and 458, but I’d really like to run .429” Swift A-Frames into some deer at about 1900fps from a 12” SBR.

Mad dog weapons systems is making a .429" daimeter cartridge made from 30-06 brass. They are calling it the 444 slayer. They are using their oversize bolts and extensions to run at 55,000 psi and they are sizing the chamber so you don't have to ream.

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/how-about-a-44-for-the-ar15-9672324?&trail=50

 

[Varminterror]

That just made the top of my project list!

 

[someguy2800]

That just made the top of my project list!

If you end up getting let us know how it turns out. I have already pre paid for a 358 yeti, but I would also like to get a 444 slayer or a 45 vrap. The vrap is a 45 raptor in an AR15.

 

[Varminterror]

@someguy2800 - I’m exploring a bit how to get this done without buying everything from MDWS, other than using them as a resource. Simple enough to source appropriate dies, just need a few bolts and the barrel. Sounds like mags are easy.

Not seeing much load or velocity data, other than to see them state here and there the performance meets this or that.

I’ve not really been a 444marlin guy, I’ve had them a few different times, but don’t ever seem to stick. I go back to the 44mag and 45-70. Same with 450b and 458soc in AR’s, I just end back up with the 6.8 and 6.5. But I load oodles and oodles of 44mag, and even reaching 1894 44mag performance in an AR is very alluring for me!

 

[someguy2800]

@someguy2800 - I’m exploring a bit how to get this done without buying everything from MDWS, other than using them as a resource. Simple enough to source appropriate dies, just need a few bolts and the barrel. Sounds like mags are easy.

Not seeing much load or velocity data, other than to see them state here and there the performance meets this or that.

I’ve not really been a 444marlin guy, I’ve had them a few different times, but don’t ever seem to stick. I go back to the 44mag and 45-70. Same with 450b and 458soc in AR’s, I just end back up with the 6.8 and 6.5. But I load oodles and oodles of 44mag, and even reaching 1894 44mag performance in an AR is very alluring for me!

If you want to run it at a slightly lower pressure to get something closer to 445 mag than 444 marlin and use a standard extension and a 450 bushmaster bolt, this might be closer to what your looking for. Quickload should get you pretty close for load data if you wanted to stay at 40,000 psi or whatever.

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/44bgml-44x1-6-8639453?pid=1303215211

 

[CraigC]

I've always thought it would be cool to resurrect the AutoMag's in a semi-auto carbine platform. One that duplicated the .445 would be even better. It's a shame they're focusing on crappy bullets.

 

[someguy2800]

I've always thought it would be cool to resurrect the AutoMag's in a semi-auto carbine platform. One that duplicated the .445 would be even better. It's a shame they're focusing on crappy bullets.

The one I posted above uses .445 load data and is the same length. If you want it, it can be done.

 

[MAKster]

If you desire a more powerful 357 is 357max even needed? 357 mag case is largely empty and was only created so that people wouldn't accidentally put them in a 38 special revolver and blow it up. Companies like Buffalo Bore are loading 357 mag to 30-30 energy levels.

 

[someguy2800]

If you desire a more powerful 357 is 357max even needed? 357 mag case is largely empty and was only created so that people wouldn't accidentally put them in a 38 special revolver and blow it up. Companies like Buffalo Bore are loading 357 mag to 30-30 energy levels.

It’s only half empty if your loading faster pistol powders. If you load it with a true magnum pistol powder like H110, most top end loads will be compressed loads. My 13” 357 pistol can push a 180 gr XTP as high as 2200 FPS, which leaves the 357 mag, even in a rifle length barrel in the dust.

 

[Varminterror]

It’s only half empty if your loading faster pistol powders. If you load it with a true magnum pistol powder like H110, most top end loads will be compressed loads. My 13” 357 pistol can push a 180 gr XTP as high as 2200 FPS, which leaves the 357 mag, even in a rifle length barrel in the dust.

Yes, to both points.

I run a Hodgdon max load of 16.7grn W296 under 158XTP’s for plinking, took some quick measurements, there’s only 65thousandths (thick as about 5 business cards) air space when seated to the middle of the cannelure.

The 357 max is a lot more powerful than 357mag. That shouldn’t be remotely debatable.

Companies like Buffalo Bore are loading 357 mag to 30-30 energy levels.

I believe someone has lied to you. Even in a rifle, the 357mag will be ~400fps slower than 30-30 with the same bullet weight. Buffalo Bore Heavy 357mag is only pushing 1475fps with a 158 from a revolver, picking up about 150-200fps in a rifle length barrel - topping out around 1700fps. The .30-30, on the other hand, will push a 160grn bullet between 2200fps from the same length barrel with ease.

 

[SSN Vet]

What I'd like to see is a tube fed semi-auto (like the old Ruger Camp Carbine), but with an action that could feed anything from 38 spl to .357 max.

But Ruger nixed that design a long time ago.

 

[eastbank]

I just picked up a TC custom shop 24" 357 max barrel, medium weight, I have not fired it yet. I have three boxes of factory ammo remington 20 round boxes

 

[someguy2800]

Let us know how it shoots. The factory T/C 357 max barrels are said to be pretty hit and miss as they have a weird forcing cone style throat and alot of them seam to have throats miss aligned with the bore.

 

[WestKentucky]

All this talk about levees and singles is driving me batty. Pumpgun daggummit. A max pump (short stroke Remington type) would be an incredible straightwall deer getter. Tube fed works, mag fed works. Sheesh. Getting you boys lined out is like herding chickens.

Carryon the nonsense about leverguns.

 

[WestKentucky]

If you desire a more powerful 357 is 357max even needed? 357 mag case is largely empty and was only created so that people wouldn't accidentally put them in a 38 special revolver and blow it up. Companies like Buffalo Bore are loading 357 mag to 30-30 energy levels.

To the point of the 30-30 power level in 357 mag cases... false. But on that same point there is a largely unknown item in the history books known as (I think) the 360dw. It is essentially a 357 mag loaded long and hot. That may be what your thinking of, but still, no it’s not to 30-30 levels. The brass is supposedly longer, but I guarantee I have 357 mag brass long enough to qualify.

 

[Varminterror]

To the point of the 30-30 power level in 357 mag cases... false. But on that same point there is a largely unknown item in the history books known as (I think) the 360dw. It is essentially a 357 mag loaded long and hot. That may be what your thinking of, but still, no it’s not to 30-30 levels. The brass is supposedly longer, but I guarantee I have 357 mag brass long enough to qualify.

You’re thinking of the .353 Casull. The .360 DW is longer than .357mag, half way between Mag and Max. The 353 Casull is simply a high pressure Mag.

 

[Bfh_auto]

To the point of the 30-30 power level in 357 mag cases... false. But on that same point there is a largely unknown item in the history books known as (I think) the 360dw. It is essentially a 357 mag loaded long and hot. That may be what your thinking of, but still, no it’s not to 30-30 levels. The brass is supposedly longer, but I guarantee I have 357 mag brass long enough to qualify.

The 360 DW does 2050 with a 158 and just shy of 1900 with a coated 180 in my 20" Rossi. Still not the 30-30 like you said.
It really is comical that everything is compared to 30-30.

 

[gotboostvr]

The 360 DW does 2050 with a 158 and just shy of 1900 with a coated 180 in my 20" Rossi. Still not the 30-30 like you said.
It really is comical that everything is compared to 30-30.

Did you have to do anything other than ream the chamber to get the 360DW to run in the 92 action?

 

[Bfh_auto]

Did you have to do anything other than ream the chamber to get the 360DW to run in the 92 action?

It is right at the limit for an unmodified lifter.