Why no pump rifles?

I like my pump 22's, and I think a pump 243 would be a mighty handy "ranch" rifle for bouncing around in the pickup and shooting varmints. So for the time being, my old 94 30-30 will have to continue to fill that role. However, if someone (Henry?) decided to make a more modern, lightweight pump action in something like 243, 308, or 7mm-08, I would absolutely consider one provided they weren't astronomically priced. However, most folks don't think like I do so that will likely remain a pipe dream.

Mac
 
valnar said:
Semi-auto: Take a slight hit in precision for the benefit of semi-auto
Bolt-action: Best precision but a con of slower reload
Pump: Worst of both worlds??
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Pretty much sums my thoughts on pump action rifle cartridges. I always thought the idea was dumb, but I’m a westerner, it seemed they were well loved by those East of the Mississippi.
 
tark said:
They're in the same place as your line of reasoning
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I can't be too far off of the general market consensus, since pump rifles are virtually non-existent.

They don't exist because consumers don't want them at any price point they can be feasibly offered, hence the offerings which have been available in the past haven't flourished, and HAVE, alternatively, withered and died.
 
I must grudgingly admit that you are probably correct. But I do notice that centerfire pumps, of whatever brand, are snapped up rather quickly from my local gun store, when consigned. Ive been offered more than I paid for my model 25... more times than I remember.
 
A certain few generations of us love our Gallery Rifles, but limitations, they carry, and the broad market saw them more than they saw the fun. For the money, I do know I can't tell my son a pump 22 is worth buying over something more conventional.

That's capitalism. Products people will buy survive over those which people won't.
 
Pump shotguns are a great idea, but they are a poor choice for a centerfire rifle. Shotgun rounds are very low pressure. Rifle rounds with much greater chamber pressures are far more likely to run into ejection and extraction issues. The legendary reliability of a pump shotgun just doesn't work with pump centerfire rifles. The old-style pump 22's were pretty reliable.

A lot of the same negatives associated with lever guns apply to pump guns as well. Compared to a bolt rifle both levers and pumps are far less accurate and reliable. For SD or combat use they are only marginally faster than a bolt gun and then only when firing offhand and exposed to return fire. If you want to shoot from any supported position or prone pump and levers are far slower than a bolt rifle. They are also heavier and cost more to produce.

For hunting game that isn't shooting back, then shooting offhand isn't a negative. I'd choose a pump shotgun for duck hunting in the worst weather. And any time where possible, some sort of support for the rifles forend to steady the shot is advisable. With a pump rifle it becomes a single shot under those conditions.

There are a lot of guys who participate in deer drives using other hunters and, in some places, using dogs. For quick multiple shots I can understand the appeal. But most people have no idea how fast it is possible to work a bolt gun and get off repeat shots. For AIMED repeat shots there is no measurable difference in speed. If your goal is just to empty the magazine in a hurry a pump will be a second or so faster than a bolt gun. But if your goal is to put all shots on a paper plate at 50 yards a skilled shooter with a bolt gun will match a skilled shooter with a pump.
 
Much is touted about the practiced rifleman and there being no appreciable difference between aimed follow up shots.

Well, this is the real world and not everyone is as practiced and well rounded of a shooter as….well…maybe the average shooter has never really been practiced or well rounded….hence the reason why my observations have often seen quicker AIMED follow up shots with pumps and semi autos.

I am not saying this only because I happen to like pump rifles but rather because many individual realities are not a generalized reality. The generalized reality is that pumps are faster even though they may not be inherently faster.

I was late to the bolt action party. Being lefty and used to pump shotgun hunting in a shotgun only area of course gravitated me towards a pump rifle. Make only a small amount of sense, I know. Either way, I can be pretty fast with both a pump and a bolt rifle nowadays. I have doubled up on deer two seasons in a row with a bolt action so yeah, they can be fast. However, the majority of bolt action hunters I see AND pump action hunters REMOVE THE BUTT OF THE RIFLE from the shoulder when cycling the action. I laugh and cry every time I see it but they are just doing their unpracticed best.
 
jmr40 said:
But most people have no idea how fast it is possible to work a bolt gun and get off repeat shots. For AIMED repeat shots there is no measurable difference in speed.
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I fully agree with the former, but will actually disagree with the letter - confirming the spirit, however - of the latter, it's actually FASTER to deliver aimed fire if you're not breaking your support position.

"For aimed repeat shots," with a bolt gun or levergun, 3 out of the 4 points of contact - and 3 out of 3 SUPPORTING points of contact, do not move. Only the trigger hand moves. Alternatively, in a pump shotgun, the support hand has to move, with NO other support at the front end of the rifle, so our sights move off of target WAY more with a pump rifle than any other repeating action type - obviously a break action requires more movement, but I don't think anyone would contend a break action single shot would be faster than any repeater... So for aimed fire, without multiple projectiles per shot, we have options in the market which don't require ANY movement of the supporting points of contact to the rifle, OR we have pump guns which require movement of the singular forward point of support which drives the rifle... Sights are moving off of target WAY more in pump rifles than these other options.
 
I think regardless of its actual technical merits as a type of action, a pump rifle introduced today would sell like hotcakes, as levers and used pumps do. A mag fed pump in pistol caliber, specifically.

I also think a .22 pump would do well. They are simply fun!
 
Because it’s cheaper to “modernize” existing lever guns that are already being produced than completely redesign a modern pump action rifle. Take a lever gun that’s already in production and just design a new forend with some MLOK slots, slap a rain section here and there, and paint it black incredibly cheaper than designing a pump action rifle from the ground up and then going through all the trials and headaches of reliability testing.

Plain and simple, it comes down to cost.
 
Once upon a time, when shooting was a legitimate sporting event, ISU and the Olympics had a Running Deer match.
A life size deer silhouette, but with bullseye scoring rings, sliding across an opening at 100 meters.
Competition included left to right, right to left, and doubles.
Manually operated actions and iron sights required.
Now most competitors just concentrated on getting quick with a bolt action, but one season the AMU had a Better Idea.
They bought some Remington 760 pumps in .223 and fitted long Hart barrels in .222 along with target peep sights.
I don't recall how well they placed vs the Mauser shuckers.

Oh, and in still earlier times, Walter Winans shot a Rigby double rifle in .22 Savage High Power, a loophole gun if there ever was one.

Then they went to Running Boar, 50 meters with a .22, then to 10 meters with a pellet gun, now just a bullseye on a track at the air rifle range.
 
Pump shotguns are a great idea, but they are a poor choice for a centerfire rifle. Shotgun rounds are very low pressure. Rifle rounds with much greater chamber pressures are far more likely to run into ejection and extraction issues.
Click to expand...
That's correct. The key is that, unlike lever and bolt actions, there's no mechanical advantage in a pump action to extract the cartridge. This means, to insure reliability (reliable extraction) centerfire pump rifle chambers tend to be cut on the generous side. That, in turn, tends to result in less than stellar accuracy.

So the niche for centerfire pump action rifles is folks who want a repeater, but not a semi-auto, bolt or lever, who aren't going to be shooting from supported positions much and are ok with mediocre to poor accuracy.
 
Mosin77 said:
a pump rifle introduced today would sell like hotcakes
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But they don’t. Benelli has been making their R1 rifles for a long time, we’ve seen how many versions of pump action AR’s, the Lightning clones and Thunderbolts… EVERY instance of pump rifles being made and sold today do NOT “sell like hotcakes.”
 
Varminterror said:
But they don’t. Benelli has been making their R1 rifles for a long time, we’ve seen how many versions of pump action AR’s, the Lightning clones and Thunderbolts… EVERY instance of pump rifles being made and sold today do NOT “sell like hotcakes.”
Click to expand...

Good point. I’ve never heard of any of those except the Colt Lightning clones, and I generally discount those because I’ve heard the Lightning is kinda finicky and in that particular trim it’s likely the kind of thing that would mainly sell to the cowboy action crowd.

I know used prices for the IMI Timberwolf and Remington 7600 pumps are pretty high and they don’t linger on the racks, and anecdotally a lot of people both on forums and those I talk to in real life, seem to love the idea of a mag-fed, quick firing pump gun in “tactical” form.
 
Mosin77 said:
anecdotally a lot of people both on forums and those I talk to in real life, seem to love the idea of a mag-fed, quick firing pump gun in “tactical” form.
Click to expand...

The ideas people will say they love aren’t typically equal to their interest in actually paying for them.

I used to have a couple pump 22’s, had a couple 760’s and 7600’s, and a Thunderbolt, and I love the idea of having different actions to play with, especially on these mild spring evenings where the days are long but it’s not yet hot…. But I’m not actually willing to spend more for lower performance and less reliability, and that tends to track with how Americans have spent their money when it comes to pump rifles.
 
Remington 760 and 7600 rifles chambered in 06 are very popular with hunters in Maine. They are accurate, durable and light weight making them great for hunting the western Maine mountains.
 
I love pump shotguns. Cycling is insensitive to a wide range of ammo from light skeet loads to “what if someone did clone a T-Rex?” slug loads. Bolt and lever rifles also get that benefit.

Wingshooting you expect a lot more misses and follow up shots. With a rifle on large or medium game, the first should get things done. If you need follow up shots, you can find a semi auto load that cycles. Shotguns you may be shooting 200 at clays, 50 at doves, or 15 magnums at ducks with one gun with factory loads. Rif,e loads don’t vary so much (unless you reload).
 
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