Why not take a target gun hunting?

[Stevenvalleyky]

Ive always wanted to build a custom long range rig. My farthest maximum shots on deer have been about 300 yards but I would like to change that. I have always thought it would be cool to build something that could stretch the effective range to humanely kill one out to 500 yards. Also would like to be able to shoot coyotes at long range as well as punch holes in paper shoot sheet plates at long range. I have talked to several guys that are into shooting coyotes at extended ranges and they tell me that what Im wanting to build is more of a target gun and that I shouldnt take it hunting once I have it built. Reasons I hear are : tolerances are tighter so it more susceptible to dirt, mud, debris, etc or that it will be so heavy that it wont be practical for hunting.
My deer hunting consists of me walking 100 yards to half a mile to climb into a tree stand or a blind. I dont walk around and hunt. Would that not negate the weight issue? As for the tight tolerances, since I am not crawling around in the dirt, should this really be a concern? How dirty is it likely to get walking to and from my stand plus the pull up into the stand? If that is still a concern, could I not just use a factory 700 rem action or Savage action and just get it trued and eliminate overly tight tolerances?
Im thinking of either defiance, or surgeon if possible but would consider trueing a factory rifle action and adding a new barrel.
What do you all think? Is it completely impractical to take a long 26 inch heavy contoured barreled rifle to a treestand to hunt whitetails in big bean fields? Got friends that live in the eastern ky coal fields and shots can be a long ways off shooting across those strip jobs.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I am not one of those ones that is going to set some arbitrary range limit, beyond which it becomes un-ethical to shoot game. That range will depend more on the individual than his gear. It is not as simple as putting a 20x scope on a rifle like Hollywood portrays. Range estimation and wind calls become exponentially more difficult. It takes copious amounts of range time to achieve and maintain the skills and familiarity in the field required to consistently place rounds on target from cold bore much past a quarter mile. But if you are willing to put the range time in, certainly there has never been a better selection of gear, from sub-MOA guaranteed mass produced rifles to precision optics and match grade projectiles. I just became aware that Tikka offers a T3 Varmint Stainless in 6.5x55 and was drooling over the new-found prospect of loading up some of those 143 gr ELD-Xs. So many toys, not enough money. And long range shooting is not a cheap hobby. As rifles become more specialized towards long range they tend to become longer and heavier, which would be the main downside to hunting with them. They can get to be a pain to pack up the side of a mountain and eventually will be big enough to require low supported positions, meaning if you spook something on the way up the mountain, it can be difficult to pull an fast, accurate offhand shot with a five foot long sixteen pound rifle.

 

[Offfhand]

A long range target style hunting rifle was the basic idea of Remington's "Sendero" series, with heavy barrels in target type stocks offered in big game calibers. An concept popularized by "longer range "beanfield" shooting situations, and exploited by rifle maker Kenny Jerrett. Before that, Remington had offered their BDL Varmint weight rifles in big game calibers. Attached are photos of a Remington 700 Varmint weight barreled rifle in .25/06, a more or less typical "beanfield" combination.

 

[Bart B.]

I don't think hunters should take their first shot at any range unless it's been proved It won't hit more than 5 inches from point of aim 4 out of 5 times Few top ranked competitors do that at 500 yards with their first shot they got a zero for the day before. Gets better at shorter ranges. At longer ranges. . . . .

If you can shoot 4 out of 5 in the hunter's 4P test at some range starting with first shot after you guessed its distance and doped the wind, that range is good to shoot at big game. 4P is Punching Paper Pie Plates.

Calculate bullet drop per five yards of range and drift per mph of cross wind at target distance. How good are you estimating sight corrections for environments different from that during sighting in?

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

I don't think hunters should take their first shot at any range unless it's been proved It won't hit more than 5 inches from point of aim 4 out of 5 times Few top ranked competitors do that at 500 yards with their first shot they got a zero for the day before. Gets better at shorter ranges. At longer ranges. . . . .

If you can 4 out of 5 in the hunter's 4P test at some range starting with first shot after you guessed its distance and doped the wind, that range is good to shoot at big game. 4P is Punching Paper Pie Plates.

Calculate bullet drop per five yards of range and drift per mph of cross wind at target distance. How good are you estimating sight corrections for environments different from that during sighting in?

Dont know much about it at all. Thats what I am working on learning now. I obviously dont intend to take anything nearly that far until I am proficient. Right now, the vast majority of my shots are under 200 yards

 

[jmr40]

You can make hits on deer or elk size game at 500 yards or farther with a typical sporter weight rifle that weighs 7.5-8 lbs including optics. The kill zone on a typical deer is 10-12" and an elk 18-24". Lots of typical hunting rifles will put 3 shots into an inch or less at 100 yards and 6-7" at 500 yards. You don't need a special rifle for what you want to do and there is no need to lug around a 10-12 lb rifle for hunting.

If you're shooting from a permanent blind and don't have to walk very far then it would be OK. But if you're having to walk 5-7 miles a day at 7000-9000' elevation elk hunting you will quickly sacrifice a little accuracy for a lighter rifle. The guys who hunt with a dedicated heavy target rifle are the guys taking the 700-1200 yard shots at big game; or varmint hunters shooting at tiny animals at 500 yards. For what you want to do it would certainly work, but you could do the same thing with a lighter, more versatile rifle.

You do need to hone your skills to be able to use the rifle at those ranges. 300 yards really isn't that hard, anyone who can shoot well enough to make hits on big game at 50 yards can do it at 300 with most modern rifles, loads, and optics. Between 300-400 yards a decent range finder and good optics are important, but most anyone with decent equipment can learn how to shoot there if the wind is calm. Beyond 500 yards is farther than most have any business shooting at game, especially with any wind at all. That is the hard part, figuring out bullet drops and exact ranges is easy enough.

I'll not be critical of those who do shoot beyond 500. I know guys who have taken deer and elk beyond 700 yards on multiple occasions. Don't be mistaken, there are people who can do it. I'm not good enough, but have shot at up to 600 yards from field positions at paper and found it easier than expected. My trigger time beyond 400 yards is limited, but I've not fired a shot yet at 500 or 600 that wouldn't have hit the kill zone on an elk. And that wasn't from a bench. I was sitting and using shooting sticks just like I'd be doing if hunting. But for me, my personal comfort zone ends at 400 yards. And even then the wind would have to be pretty calm.

 

[wally]

If you can hump the extra weight, no reason not to, as the target has no way to tell what gun fired the round. OTOH if you hit significantly better with the target gun instead of a "hunting rifle" ethics would seem to demand you hump the extra weight or keep to shorter range shots.

 

[horsey300]

Dont know much about it at all. Thats what I am working on learning now. I obviously dont intend to take anything nearly that far until I am proficient. Right now, the vast majority of my shots are under 200 yards

I believe you already have what you need to get started, grab your .243 and put in some trigger time at the ranges you're wanting to shoot with your most used loads. Sierra or ballistic tips work nicely. My .243 is easily 500 yard capable and it's a junk 770 with a 20" bbl, but I put pro hunters or 95 btips over h1000 at 2934 in cold weather and practice practice practice until I'm minute of coyote vitals at 500+ yds. Bullet trajectory is pretty easy with target turrets, bdcs, and/mildots start doping the wind every time you're out, start on low wind days and then push your limits a little further. Once you've found you can literally not achieve ANY better, get a savage 6.5-284 and play with the expensive bullets (6 mm is way cheaper than 6.5) just don't try to take game farther than you KNOW you can hit "4p" (thank you Bart) on any given day. I can really say that the savage 24" bbl would be quite sufficient, I personally prefer controlled round feed, but that's not a requirement by any means.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

Horsey300, yes, im sure I can use what I have for shooting varmints but while im nowhere close to being comfortable shooting a deer at 400 yards YET, when that point arrives, Im not sure that the 243 has enough energy left at that range to cleanly kill a whitetail. I could be wrong. I know im good at 250 with the 243 but was concerned with having the ooomph at extended ranges to do the job on deer sized game.
Finances dont allow it right now but eventually I would like to build a 6 mmbr or a 6.5-284 that will never be used for deer hunting. For lots of shooting from a bench, Im partial to light recoiling rounds like the 6mm variations. My aspirations far outweigh my finances and Im sure it will be quite a while before I can afford to get 2 new rifles.

 

[Hookeye]

I grew up shooting chucks and reloading.
Can do fine to 400 or so.
Dunno if older and wimping out, but I'd be content to sneak a bit and shoot everything under 200 from now on.

 

[Rat Robb]

I would think most good hunting rifles, in most hunting calibers could make the same shot as a target rifle out to 500 yds with a less weight/more mobility.

-Robb

 

[Bart B.]

The guys who hunt with a dedicated heavy target rifle are the guys taking the 700-1200 yard shots at big game;

What's their average first shot miss distance at those ranges?

 

[zb338]

I have a friend who has a very accurate and very heavy custom .300. He has shot all kinds of
stuff with it. He is an old duffer (like me) and he says when he can't do it anymore he won't
do it.
Zeke

 

[DownInTheDark]

Novice hunters brag about how long of a shot they took. Good hunters brag about how close they got.

 

[cdb1]

Novice hunters brag about how long of a shot they took. Good hunters brag about how close they got.

Yep.

 

[Casefull]

"What's their average first shot miss distance at those ranges?"

Good question Bart. Unfortunately no one that shoots at that distance will tell the truth. I would say that those that use a rangefinder and practice would be lucky to hit one third of their first shots at 700 yards and beyond. For those just guessing it's probably much lower and if they cannot see where their rounds are impacting it would be very small percentage.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

I completely agree about getting closer. Ive killed over 40 deer at less than 35 yards, the vast majority with a bow.
Being able to shoot a deer at 400 yards would be the culmination of my learning to shoot at longer ranges than Im use to. Most of my shooting will be at targets, not animals. Ive never had anything but cheap factory rifles and really want to build my own. Unless I go with a savage where I can swap barrels at home, I will have to use a gunsmith for barrel placement. I can true the action and bolt face at home and bed the barreled action in a stock at home. Just wanting something different and that has the potential to be more accurate than my ruger americans.

 

[horsey300]

Horsey300, yes, im sure I can use what I have for shooting varmints but while im nowhere close to being comfortable shooting a deer at 400 yards YET, when that point arrives, Im not sure that the 243 has enough energy left at that range to cleanly kill a whitetail. I could be wrong. I know im good at 250 with the 243 but was concerned with having the ooomph at extended ranges to do the job on deer sized game.
Finances dont allow it right now but eventually I would like to build a 6 mmbr or a 6.5-284 that will never be used for deer hunting. For lots of shooting from a bench, Im partial to light recoiling rounds like the 6mm variations. My aspirations far outweigh my finances and Im sure it will be quite a while before I can afford to get 2 new rifles.

With my 100 gr handloads, I'm above my state's 100 yd minimal energy requirement of 900ft lbs at 400 yds and at 500 I'm above 750 while still maintaining the optimal 1800 fps or high impact velocity rule I use to ensure the bullet will still open on impact and penetrate without pinholing..... how much energy do your arrows pump out? Accuracy is a MUCH larger factor, and if you can repetitively put holes in the lungs and heart of your quarry, they will still suffer minimally. Whitetail are not hard to kill. For deer with my loads, I wouldn't shoot past 500, for yotes I'm whipping up something sleeker for longer ranges, and I don't take those shots if the wind is more than 10-15 mph. With 95 btips in my short barrel, I get the energy extended another 25 yds and velocity another 50. That 6.5-284 Norma will REALLY extend your range, still on the lesser recoiling side and you can get a savage for $600 or less in that chambering ready to scope and hunt. I say the 6.5 for the best b.c. lowest recoil combo I can think of that's commercially chambered. -284 Norma is just fine for hunting and will launch them WAY out there. My point here, is that you shouldn't sell your gear short, a $3000 scoped out target rig wouldn't turn my 9 year old into a long range marksman, and a .260 AI won't kill em any deader than what you already have. So no, don't break the bank. Go ahead and tune up your rifle if you want, it sure won't hurt, after you burn out your barrel, go ahead and throw a longer one on it (I prefer something between a #2 and a bull barrel to help steady the longer shots). If you're not competing, you really don't NEED a competition gun.

 

[BrocLuno]

It's not completely impractical. I have a heavy barrel 22-250 that does Yotes on down. But it gets shot off the hood of the Bronco a lot. It does not get toted more than 1/4 mile... Not friendly for brush work. For that, I have a 30-30 Marlin and I will not reach much over 100 yds with that one. In between these two are the 06 bolt guns. They'll reach out quite a ways.

150gr pill in 06 will go 400 yds and my eyes won't except on clear cool days. You get heat waves and mirage over hot ground, so unless you're canyon hunting, that is tough. And canyon hunting has it's own drawbacks. Say I shoot one ridge to the next and I wound the animal. By the time I hike down and up and start blood trailing, it's real easy to loose a wounded as dusk is closing in ...

 

[Bart B.]

There's no reason a 7 pound, skinny barreled hunting rifle will be any less accurate as a 13 pound fat barreled match rifle; both chambered the same and of equal quality. If one understands what makes rifles shoot bullets precisely, they'll agree.

Heavier rifles are easier to shoot accurately, but the difference is small.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't think hunters should take their first shot at any range unless it's been proved It won't hit more than 5 inches from point of aim 4 out of 5 times Few top ranked competitors do that at 500 yards with their first shot they got a zero for the day before. Gets better at shorter ranges. At longer ranges. . . .

Agree. This weekend, I shot in an 300, 600, 600 rifle match. We had a five minute sighting period at 300 yards, unlimited sighters, and a five minute sighting period at 600 yards, unlimited sighters. Once dialed in, the F Class shooters were hitting the 10, X, but, there is a reason why they get five minutes to shoot unlimited sighters.

I shoot at CMP Talladega often. These guys who want to shoot at game long distance, that is above 300 yards, ought to come out the range and bet someone $500.00 that they will hit the X ring at any and all distances above 200 yards, first shot, cold bore. The bet needs to be high enough to cause pain, or the lesson won't be learned. I am of the opinion a hunting rifle ought to be sighted in to hit the seven inch ten ring at 300 yards, and I have been surprised how many times, as I am using this facility, my shots are not in the ten ring, even though I have very good 100 yard zero's with the things. I have had some eights, might have had stuff further, don't recall, but, generally, I have to adjust my sights to get the groups inside the ten ring. I have also noticed, the groups move as the barrel fouls, just something that happens with the mix of rifles I am using. Some are less sensitive to barrel fouling than others, but then, how do you know if you have not tested your rifle at distance?

 

[X-Rap]

There is a difference between a fouled barrel and a cold barrel.
My barrels stay fouled and are sighted to be on with the first cold bore shot.
I don't believe I'd keep a rifle that deviated as much as some have described as it heated up.
I shot my first bull with an old 77V Ruger in 280 at about 90 yds off hand because it was the best caliber I had at the time. I still have it and 280 is still one of my favorites but I have a few more choices now.

 

[Sunray]

"...impractical to take a long, 26 inch, heavy contoured barreled rifle to a tree stand..." Nope, but that 100 yards to half a mile can be a lot longer in the dark and through bush that's trying to grab you.
"...out to 500 yards..." Usually more about bullet drop than energy. Mind you, typical deer cartridges don't have the energy at 500 either. The typical 100 grain .243 runs at around 745 ft-lbs. at 500. That 900 ft-lbs. isn't enough either, but the major issue is the 50" drop while sighted in .4" high at 100. And that's with a Max load. A 150 out of a .30-06/.308 does though. A 165 is better.

 

[MCMXI]

Novice hunters brag about how long of a shot they took. Good hunters brag about how close they got.

Yes, the "one size fits all" approach to hunting. For some of us, 500 yards is as close as we can get if we want to go home with meat. 300 yard + shots are not unusual out here in MT and that's why many of us shoot all year round and practice so that if a long shot is necessary we increase the odds of a successful hunt and a humane kill. I used a "target" rifle to shoot a mule deer at 341 yards in November of 2015. It was an AI AW chambered in .308 Win. I know that rifle, I know the load I was using, have a range finder, good optics and practice. It was an easy shot and one that I would take again and again. The bullet went through the heart, the deer tasted really good and he's now on the wall in my house. Here's his heart with a nice hole in it. I shot another mule deer in November of last year at 461 yards with a .375 H&H but that wasn't a target rifle so it doesn't apply to this discussion. However, in both cases, there was no way to get closer so longer shots were necessary and successful.

 

[Kingcreek]

I've hunted for over 45 years, hunted deer, elk, and pronghorn, and shot high power competition and long range target and varmint.
The longest shot I ever took on a game animal other than varmint was 285 yards on a Wyoming pronghorn.
When I decided on a multi-purpose target and hunting rifle, I picked up a Tikka T3 stainless/laminate in .308 and scoped it with good glass. I wanted something accurate enough to be challenging and capable on the range and light enough to carry on a mountain hunt.