Why semantics on firearms terminology actually matters

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Years ago I was involved with what we called Cultural Resource Management and lots of general population got involved in that, peripherally. Any time there was a public forum many folks would interchangeably throw out terms like "preservation" and "conservation" without knowing that there's a huge difference in those words. And that using the wrong word easily can make the difference between your argument being heard or being dismissed out of hand just because you didn't bother doing basic research.

We can see semantics in action in the abortion debate. The Pro Life side were correct in getting themselves known as that, rather than "anti abortion". On the other hand they failed to label pro abortion activists in a way that would undermine their position. So, we now see pro abortion as "Pro Choice", but never as "the right to murder your unborn child", or "Pro Infanticide". This is a huge victory in semantics because if it were labeled as murder, then the overall public would likely view it entirely differently.

In regards to firearms, we've allowed the debate to become "gun rights" and "gun violence". Guns are inanimate objects and never do anything on their own, and do not require rights. So that leads the public to see firearms as the cause, rather than seeing that the person is the cause. This is nothing more than deflection so that the basic truth is harder to see. It's crazy and stupid that we are allowing this to happen.

We need to change the semantics so that we are viewed as people upholding the Bill of Rights because it's the 2nd Amendment that gives the entire document teeth and power.

Anti gun people need to be viewed as those who are working to undermine the 2nd Amendment and therefore weakening the entire Bill of Rights. If that distinction is made, then the overall public are likely to always fall on the side of protecting their basic rights. My feeling is that if we are painted as "gun rights" then the public doesn't need to care as much and possibly dismissing us as nut jobs.

I'm less concerned with minor terminology like clip vs. magazine. However correcting an anti with correct terminology as a means to let them know that they know less than they think is always a good thing.

So yeah, semantics is huge. Semantics is everything.
Quoted in its entirety for truth. Well said.

If we are to get bogged down in semantics, it absolutely must be big picture, RKBA stuff, not minor, inconsequential technicalities. Let's frame any discussion about firearms on the principles of ownership and usage, not the engineering terms.about the tools.
 
Try this one at a trap/skeet club if someone asks you to fill out a squad: "Sure, let me grab some more bullets."
Inevitably, at least one guy will get a psychological wedgie over it.
 
-Anyone that has a Garand, a Carcano or a Berthier knows that they have to have a clip to load their magazine... .
That is not correct. The sheet metal device needed to fire a Garand, Carcano, Bertheir, or any of several Mannlicher designed rifles is properly termed an "en bloc loading device". It functionally becomes part of the magazine.

The doo-dad carrying a specific number of rounds - typically five, sometimes ten - which is then inserted into the magazine - either fixed or detachable - is a 'stripper clip'.

Sadly, most folks just do not understand that words really do mean something. It is a display of mental laziness. Next time you attempt work on a car or other machine, ask someone to had you the 'thing' and see what you get.
 
Of course terminology matters. Some gun people argue that an "assault rifle" is a select fire weapon. Heavily restricted for civilians from the NFA and allowed mostly for law enforcement and military. Anti gun politicians try to stretch this definition to ban whatever they are going after. It isn't just AR15s anymore. Some anti gun bills are going after anything semi-automatic as "assault weapons." FUDD conservatives and anyone else who owns firearms will be under the boot when the "common sense assault rifle" bill they voted for has them facing felony charges.
 
The concept of 'meaningful speech' is lost on many people. It seems to be a missing concept in education currently.

I used to work as a locksmith. I was the guy who went out to houses, commercial buildings or locations to do particular services, including opening locked cars. To do so, I had to know where to go. The address, number and street name. The difference between street, avenue, court, and such makes a difference. 25th Street is a different thoroughfare than 25th Avenue. There is a major discrepancy between West and East. And far too many people directed me to 'go up' a particular street. What does 'go up' mean? They had no concept of North, East, South or West.

In terms of firearms, how about a "7mm" rifle? Buying ammo on that little information is rather frustrating. Or perhaps a '45' handgun. Does that mean .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 GAP, or .455 Webley?

Years ago I was assistant range master in the Border Patrol. I was asked to attest to the qualification of an officer who worked at the immigration holding facility. I asked him what sort of handgun he had. He told me it was a Model 19. Meeting him at the range, I examined his sidearm. It was a Colt Official Police in .38 Special. Not a Smith & Wesson, not a .357 Magnum and NOT a Model 19. He said that's what he called it.

So I rather prefer those who can intelligently describe and discuss most any subject. I'm not angered by those who cannot, but I am disgusted by those who can't or won't after claiming to 'know about it'. I do get disgusted by willful ignorance and an apathetic attitude.
 
Try this one at a trap/skeet club if someone asks you to fill out a squad: "Sure, let me grab some more bullets."
Inevitably, at least one guy will get a psychological wedgie over it.
Actually at my last home club, may folks used that term for shotshell ammo.................most just shrugged it off.
 
As long as we are having fun with this and it all depends on whose ox is being gored...

When it comes to the name of the optics manufacturer from Beaverton, Oregon...It’s “Loo-pold”. Leupold

Not LEO-pold.

A Public Service announcement from Oregon. Remember, we put the “gun” in Oregon. (Not Ore-gone).
 
Several years ago, when I was working on a master's degree in library science, I had to take a class in cataloging even though I didn't intend to become a cataloger. Rather than a final exam, the culmination of the class was for each student to create a "faceted - analytico-synthetic" classification system, which is essentially a list of each individual term used in a given subject arranged in a mutually-exclusive, hierarchical taxonomy. We could select any subject we wanted and so I selected "firearms". Within a few minutes, I realized I had selected too broadly, so I shortened it to "handguns", but even there it was difficult to arrange each and every term associated with "handguns" in a mutually-exclusive, hierarchical taxonomy. By the time I had completed the project, I had well over 3,000 different terms and had concluded that it was the most boring, tedious, frustrating thing I'd ever done, including trying to reload .25 acp. The prof. wasn't too thrilled with the topic, but she had approved it beforehand, so she really couldn't complain too much. At the end, she gave me an "A" for the class. The final printout was well over 250 pages and I had become so frustrated by it that I didn't even bother to keep a copy. Then a short time after that I discoverd that SAAMI already had done pretty much the same thing! Yes, some folks are more well-versed on terminology than others, but as long as we can figure out what the other person means, it's all pretty much a wash to me. Yes, terms do matter, especially with regard to firearms. There's that old phrase "it's not rocket science;" well, with regard to firearms, it realy is rocket science because you have what amounts to a small rocket laucher (admittedly "rocket" not the proper term here!) in your hand that can easily kill somebody if you don't know what you're talking about or doing. When I visit a store today, for example, and I see a person asking for Winchester .351 ammunition and the clerk says "there's no such thing, you must want .357 mag. ammo," and he sells them a whole case of non-returnable merchandise, I get concerned. Such willful ignorance and stupidity is not only dangerous, it reflects poorly on the credibility of everyone involved in the industry, the sports and collecting. The key is a willingness to learn and increase your understanding. For example, years ago I had one customer who would come into the store every so often just to see if we had any new "Schmidt and Westerns" and another fellow wanted to see one of them new "Gee-Locks". I didn't laugh at them, but rather patiently and carefully tried to explain the importance of using the proper terms. Unfortunately, I failed to get through to either of them.
 
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this is stilled flawed thought. Your not presenting the idea of -say whats right-. Your presenting the idea of say what I say is right, and what my mob says is right-. Theres no one term to describe something, as long as there are multiple words that carry the same message. When people say "I got a flat tire", do you say "No you have a punctured tread"? What If someone curbs their car and reports a bent wheel, do you say "No you have a bent tire rim". A vehicle transmission is actually called a "transmission of power". A head is a "combustion cylinder head". Gas is actually gasoline. You don't have the clerk at the gas station correcting people buying gasoline, even though many sell actual liquefied gas. Can remember someone saying "cellular telephone" or "stereophonic sound system", or calling their gas peddle a "throttle". The firearm community likes to pick at these things for the same reason every other click does. They feel superior belittling people for not talking exactly the same way they do, or they feel like they belong in some secret society of smarter, more cultured people. Maybe when I hear the corrector say "thats not a clip, thats an internal firearm ammunition feeding magazine" I'll buy into it.
 
Imagine walking into a gunshop and asking to buy some 38spl, and the hipster behind the counter says
hipster: we don't carry that
you: whats that right there
hipster: oh that, thats 38 Smith and Wesson special
you: yes that
hipster: oh why didnt you just ask for that the first time?
I know I wouldn't go back. Should we demand SAAMI change the name to 38 External case dimension special? For that matter should that gunshop change their signs to read Rifle, Pistol, revolver, derringer, shotgun, and miscellaneous firearm shop? People take themselves way to seriously
 
Several years ago, when I was working on a master's degree in library science, I had to take a class in cataloging even though I didn't intend to become a cataloger. Rather than a final exam, the culmination of the class was for each student to create a "faceted - analytico-synthetic" classification system, which is essentially a list of each individual term used in a given subject arranged in a mutually-exclusive, hierarchical taxonomy. We could select any subject we wanted and so I selected "firearms". Within a few minutes, I realized I had selected too broadly, so I shortened it to "handguns", but even there it was difficult to arrange each and every term associated with "handguns" in a mutually-exclusive, hierarchical taxonomy. By the time I had completed the project, I had well over 3,000 different terms and had concluded that it was the most boring, tedious, frustrating thing I'd ever done, including trying to reload .25 acp. The prof. wasn't too thrilled with the topic, but she had approved it beforehand, so she really couldn't complain too much. At the end, she gave me an "A" for the class. The final printout was well over 250 pages and I had become so frustrated by it that I didn't even bother to keep a copy. Then a short time after that I discoverd that SAAMI already had done pretty much the same thing! Yes, some folks are more well-versed on terminology than others, but as long as we can figure out what the other person means, it's all pretty much a wash to me. Yes, terms do matter, especially with regard to firearms. There's that old phrase "it's not rocket science;" well, with regard to firearms, it realy is rocket science because you have what amounts to a small rocket laucher (admittedly "rocket" not the proper term here!) in your hand that can easily kill somebody if you don't know what you're talking about or doing. When I visit a store today, for example, and I see a person asking for Winchester .351 ammunition and the clerk says "there's no such thing, you must want .357 mag. ammo," and he sells them a whole case of non-returnable merchandise, I get concerned. Such willful ignorance and stupidity is not only dangerous, it reflects poorly on the credibility of everyone involved in the industry, the sports and collecting. The key is a willingness to learn and increase your understanding. For example, years ago I had one customer who would come into the store every so often just to see if we had any new "Schmidt and Westerns" and another fellow wanted to see one of them new "Gee-Locks". I didn't laugh at them, but rather patiently and carefully tried to explain the importance of using the proper terms. Unfortunately, I failed to get through to either of them.
these are perfect examples of actual differences, and words being used incorrectly. A 351, and a 357 are actually different. A 357 Mag, and a 357 RemMag are not. Correcting the first is a legitimate reaction to a real error. Correcting the second is pedantic and not necessary. Proper nouns carry certain pronunciation. Its not wrong to correct that either. Silencer vs suppressor is a different animal. I knew a guy with an integrated silencer MKll. Shooting subsonics, I think that could legitimately be called a silencer. the shot was much quieter than the bullet hitting the dirt 5' away. I'm not telling him its acually a suppressor.
 
Is it true that a Garand en bloc loading device holds eight calibers?
in common usage, revolvers were pistols, and often remain so today. Unless they are filling out an ATF form, calling a revolver a pistol is not wrong ....
All revolvers are pistols.
Not all pistols are revolvers.
Pete
 
I'm a word guy. I don't do math all that well, and I'll certainly never be an engineer. My entire adult life has revolved around words in one form or another. That said, I really can't get too worked up over the nomenclature issue when it comes to guns. IMHO, hammering someone for calling a magazine a clip is one of the silliest things gun owners do. Language changes over time, and varies by locale. Around here, and for the last 40 years, "magazine" and "clip" have largely been interchangeable. If I go to the range with a buddy and ask him to hand me a clip for my Glock out of my range bag, he's not going to quibble with me. He's going to hand me a magazine. Same thing with "bullets," "shells," and "cartridges." Nobody around here will say, "hand me that box of cartridges." They'd say "hand me that box of bullets," and it doesn't matter if it's 20 ga., 9mm, or .308. I could easily believe that in other places, those terms might not be as interchangeable.
 
So who gets to determine what are the correct terms to use?

Surely, ' the thing that goes up ' isnt correct particularly when you're trying to sound knowledgeable in any topic and addressing a group as an authority figure representing a working knowledge of it. It doesn't even convey a description.

But I have to wonder, if a gun mfg has used clip for mag before quite a few here were born, who gets to decide which is right.... and who is going censure and discipline those that use the offending word? Sounds like a wonderful place to escape from.


We're not writing technical papers. We're not writing legislation. Just be as specific as needed.

IOW, Lighten up, Francis.
 
I'm a word guy. I don't do math all that well, and I'll certainly never be an engineer. My entire adult life has revolved around words in one form or another. That said, I really can't get too worked up over the nomenclature issue when it comes to guns. IMHO, hammering someone for calling a magazine a clip is one of the silliest things gun owners do. Language changes over time, and varies by locale. Around here, and for the last 40 years, "magazine" and "clip" have largely been interchangeable. If I go to the range with a buddy and ask him to hand me a clip for my Glock out of my range bag, he's not going to quibble with me. He's going to hand me a magazine. Same thing with "bullets," "shells," and "cartridges." Nobody around here will say, "hand me that box of cartridges." They'd say "hand me that box of bullets," and it doesn't matter if it's 20 ga., 9mm, or .308. I could easily believe that in other places, those terms might not be as interchangeable.

I'd guess you're not a reloader?
 
My little pet peeve is when someone uses "caliber" when they should be using "cartridge"; and let's not even go to the pre-teen slang with things like "shotty".............:cuss:
To shotty add Winny, Remmy, Roy, Bob, Leupy and Bushy. There are more. I can live with, “Swaro”. Yes they bother me but we do have the second amendment. It bothers me that those terms bother me. In the grand scheme of things it’s so incredibly inconsequential.

Cartridge and caliber/calibre, clip and magazine, Creedmore and Creedmoor. These bother me too, see paragraph one, it bothers me that it bothers me. Location matters. There is a British hunting website I read often. On that website at least, calibre is always used instead of cartridge.

I’ve quit correcting people on using the correct terminology even though I am anal about using it myself. What I have the least tolerance for is posters not capitalizing or using punctuation. Are these people e e cummings wannabes? I don’t verbalize my disdain though, I just refuse to read the posts. This is the one situation that doesn’t bother me that it bothers me.
 
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Mags vs clips doesn't bother me that much.
Silencer vs suppressors niether.
I typically refer to ammo in plurality as ammo, and singularly as rounds.
Bullets are the projectiles in those rounds, unless the round is loaded with multiple projectiles blah blah blah.

The only one I really care about is the non-dealer selling a firearm "NIB" and pricing it accordingly. It may be mint, like new, unfired, etc....but it is NOT new. No more than your car would still be new if you bought it, trailered it home and never drove it. Even if you never used it, it's a used car.

*Disclaimer* After reading post directly above, I would like to issue a blanket apology for any punctuation or grammatical errors as well as misspelled words. Please allow this apology to retroactively cover any previous errors as well as any I may (and will) make in the future.
 
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I'd guess you're not a reloader?
I reloaded a whole bunch of shotgun shells in my youth, but I've never reloaded a metallic cartridge. So I wouldn't call myself a reloader. That said, I do know plenty of reloaders and I haven't noticed them using those words any differently than I do.
 
Does the NRA still insist that in its non-defensive courses (such as Basic Pistol), instructors avoid the term "weapon"?
 
This topic is like using Handloads for SD. It comes up a number times a year, goes for half a dozen pages and basically doesn't accomplish anything but use Bandwidth. The OP in this case presents a litle different scenario than usual. He is trying to tell us we must be not only hard on others outside the gun community, but within too, when it comes to chastising folks for incorrect terminology. We must be staunch and steadfast in our stand against the usage of the word clip when referencing a magazine. OMG....a casing is what you use for sausage, not for ammo!

My thought is this ‘we’ as the firearm/gun owning community seem to have two different standards when it comes to knowledge and the correct use of terminology. We tend to brush it off when someone in the community messes this up while jumping down the throats of people outside the community when they mess it up. It shows our hypocrisy and makes us looks like a rabid good old boys club. Terms like clip/mag or assault rifle or auto/semi-auto and countless others.

Why? Is it pop or soda? Is it Sweet Tea or sweetened tea? Does it matter when folks know what is being said? Does it matter when the meaning of the sentence it is used in does not change? Or is it, like so many of those "dumb guy at Walmart" and "stupid gun counter clerk" threads, where somehow those folks doing the correcting, are trying to impress upon the rest of us, their superior intellect? Do we target those outside the gun community more because we are trying to belittle them in reality, instead of informing/correcting? Me smart....them dumb! My Grandpa fought in France in WWI. My Dad was in the first wave on the beaches of Iwo Jima on the 19th of February, 1945. Both of them(according to folks here) incorrectly referred to magazines as clips. Both of them called the Ruffed Grouse we have around here, Partridge. When I was a younger, I tried to impress upon them how incorrect they were. Now I realize just how foolish I was. Kinda like these kinds of threads. We need to chill. We need to be a community, not a nun at a Catholic school with a ruler in her hand.

I gotta go install a new kitchen. Odds are the home owner is going to use several incorrect terms for what I am doing and what I am using. I can snicker and chastise her every time she uses an incorrect term, or I can realize it makes not one bit of difference in the overall scheme of things. We're all different, kinda what makes the world such an interesting place to be. The internet is a treasure chest of information and knowledge. It also seems to be a sounding board for folks that feel the need to whine about the smallest of things.

JMTCs.
 
this is stilled flawed thought. Your not presenting the idea of -say whats right-. Your presenting the idea of say what I say is right, and what my mob says is right-. Theres no one term to describe something, as long as there are multiple words that carry the same message. When people say "I got a flat tire", do you say "No you have a punctured tread"? What If someone curbs their car and reports a bent wheel, do you say "No you have a bent tire rim". A vehicle transmission is actually called a "transmission of power". A head is a "combustion cylinder head". Gas is actually gasoline. You don't have the clerk at the gas station correcting people buying gasoline, even though many sell actual liquefied gas. Can remember someone saying "cellular telephone" or "stereophonic sound system", or calling their gas peddle a "throttle". The firearm community likes to pick at these things for the same reason every other click does. They feel superior belittling people for not talking exactly the same way they do, or they feel like they belong in some secret society of smarter, more cultured people. Maybe when I hear the corrector say "thats not a clip, thats an internal firearm ammunition feeding magazine" I'll buy into it.
Ahh. Perhaps I presented my opinion poorly. I'm trying to get across the 'say what's right' idea and that what's right is right regardless of who it is saying it.
 
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