why the hell don't you own a thompson?

[MikeyLikesIt]

Other

I live in Kaleefornya, guns grow legs here and run amuck

 

[AndyC]

Wow, somebody wants to argue.

My pointes were relevant to your dismissal that they are nothing but a "large, heavy and bulky semi-auto handgun." That is simply not the case.

Compared to most rifles and carbines they are lighter. To answer your "so what?" this makes them a bit handier, especially for things like home defense. Compared to a handgun they are a more stable platform with a longer sight radius, greater magazine capacity and more options for things such as weapon lights and various accessories.

But back to the merits of something like a HK94.

Zero felt recoil. So what? Well I did cover this. Zero felt recoil means rapid target acqusition and greater ability to engage mutliple targets faster. This isn't all that important at the range but if you have 3 armed crack heads in your home it gets to be sorta important.

Less real world penetration of building materials. And since I guess you missed it, I'm comparing it to rifle/carbine calibers such as .223 (which is why I specifically cited the FBI materials test). As for the "so what" this means fired rounds are less likely to pass through multiple walls and as such pose a less significant risk than most rifle/carbine calibers to those in adjoining rooms or even neighbors. This is an important consideration for those who live in apartments, condos or town houses.

None of this is "spin", just the actual difference between semi auto pistol caliber carbines and actual pistols. To suggest they are identical is simply not true. The only thing they have in common is the round itself and generally the performance of that round, although carbine tend to produce a more accurate shot due to being a more stable platform with a longer sight radius.

Gee, I thought this was a debate, not an argument, but I'll play.

You mention that "None of this is "spin", just the actual difference between semi auto pistol caliber carbines and actual pistols" - but then proceed to compare them to rifle calibers. We're not comparing these to rifles, friend - we're comparing them to handguns chambered in the same caliber.

I don't care about how they are compared to semi-auto rifles - that's completely irrelevant and is a logical fallacy on your part. I want to know how they stack up against handguns - what makes a semi-auto carbine chambered in a handgun cartridge any better than a handgun itself? Don't tell me "lack of recoil" - that dog won't hunt.

 

[rbernie]

Compared to most rifles and carbines they are lighter.

Sorry - no freakin' way.

My scoped precision 24" bull barrel AR10 weighs about the same as a AO Thompson, and I've got about two dozen semi- AKs and ARs that each weigh less (and pack far more punch). There's not a M4 in the sandbox that weighs as much as a Thompson.

Like 'em for nostalgia, or because they appeal to you - that's personal taste. But the facts do not support any argument for the Thompson when comparing weight, handiness, recoil, ME, TCO, or any other measurable factor.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Every really nice gun I've bought I got cheap because the seller didn't know much about guns and didn't recognize its virtures and value. An example is a Belgian made P35 in new condition I picked up for 60 bucks because the shop salesman just thought of it as a "old" Foriegn made gun in what was in those days an unpopular caliber.
Got a Savage 25/20 23B in very good condition at a very reasonable price recently because the owner got tired of trying to find shells for it at Walmart and Kmart.
Same applies to practically ever purchase I've made.
I've also seen some very nice old European sporting rifles priced cheaply simply because of the difficulty in finding ammo in the more uncommon chamberings.

Thats just not going to happen with a Thompson, it's just too famous a design and practically everyone recognizes it as a very valuable gun. Everyone knows what the .45 ACP is and knows that ammo should never be a problem.

 

[SteyrAUG]

AndyC

Gee, I thought this was a debate, not an argument, but I'll play.

OK, I read you wrong. Seemed like you were getting upset.

AndyC
You mention that "None of this is "spin", just the actual difference between semi auto pistol caliber carbines and actual pistols" - but then proceed to compare them to rifle calibers. We're not comparing these to rifles, friend - we're comparing them to handguns chambered in the same caliber.

I brought up rifles because others raised that issue. I specifically mentioned the difference between handguns and pistol caliber carbines with you because you raised that issue.

But let's focus on the issue you raised. Let's take a semi HK SP-89 and a HK SP-89 registered as a SBR (which makes it a pistol caliber carbine) with a shoulder stock.

Both started as exactly the same weapon. But one very much is little more than a heavy pistol (so much so that they are actually sorta difficult to shoot accurately with) and the other (simply by adding a shoulder stock) becomes a very managable and accurate PDW. To suggest they are anyway the same in terms of performance is simply not true. And when compared to most other handguns, a PDW platform (as well as any pistol caliber carbine such as the Colt 6450) simply has tremendous advantage over the handgun in virtually every areas except for concealability and ease of carry.

I hope this clarifies the points I originally intended to make.

AndyC
I don't care about how they are compared to semi-auto rifles - that's completely irrelevant and is a logical fallacy on your part. I want to know how they stack up against handguns - what makes a semi-auto carbine chambered in a handgun cartridge any better than a handgun itself? Don't tell me "lack of recoil" - that dog won't hunt.

Again, I raised the comparisson to other carbine/rifles because others raised that issue.

And as for "lack of recoil" between a handgun and a pistol caliber carbine, despite your assertions that "that dog won't hunt" it is most certainly true that a 9mm carbine (HK 94, Colt 6450, etc.) will definitely recoil less than a 9mm handgun due to the extra weight. This is why my wife doesn't mind shooting a MP5 but doesn't like most 9mm handguns. They are obviously exactly the same round, but recoil (and more importantly muzzle blast which most new shooters associate with recoil) is much different between the two.

And in a real world shooting situation, such as home defense against multiple intruders, actual recoil is much different between a Glock 17 and a Colt 6450 because the handgun will recoil and muzzle snap more than a pistol caliber carbine. That means the HK 94 or Colt 6450 will always be back on target, or engagint the next target, before a handgun chambered in the same caliber.

 

[TonyStarks]

Cash Flow.
As it is i have recently had to sell most of my handguns and rifles. My wife and i recently had a baby, and she was laid off during her leave of absence.
Money is tight and owning a thompson just isnt in my budget. I had to sell my Kimber which really hurt because more than likely i wont be able to replace it for years.
All i have left to sell is an MPA Mini 9 which was given to me by a friend as a gift. I have never fired a round through it if anyone is interested.

 

[AndyC]

But let's focus on the issue you raised. Let's take a semi HK SP-89 and a HK SP-89 registered as a SBR (which makes it a pistol caliber carbine) with a shoulder stock.

Both started as exactly the same weapon. But one very much is little more than a heavy pistol (so much so that they are actually sorta difficult to shoot accurately with) and the other (simply by adding a shoulder stock) becomes a very managable and accurate PDW. To suggest they are anyway the same in terms of performance is simply not true. And when compared to most other handguns, a PDW platform (as well as any pistol caliber carbine such as the Colt 6450) simply has tremendous advantage over the handgun in virtually every areas except for concealability and ease of carry.

I hope this clarifies the points I originally intended to make.

Err... not really. You're doing it again - comparing two non-handguns to each other and coming to the conclusion that because one is a PDW, that proves a point of some kind a la "Well hey, quod erat demonstrandum - I rest my case" kinda thing. Sorry, not in the slightest. Exactly what "tremendous advantage" over a handgun did that show? Can't see it.

And as for "lack of recoil" between a handgun and a pistol caliber carbine, despite your assertions that "that dog won't hunt" it is most certainly true that a 9mm carbine (HK 94, Colt 6450, etc.) will definitely recoil less than a 9mm handgun due to the extra weight. This is why my wife doesn't mind shooting a MP5 but doesn't like most 9mm handguns. They are obviously exactly the same round, but recoil (and more importantly muzzle blast which most new shooters associate with recoil) is much different between the two.

We're obviously hanging out with different shooters, then - nobody I know has any problems engaging multiple targets very quickly with a .45, let alone a 9mm, nor are they going to use a 10 lb firearm to try manage that same recoil.

And in a real world shooting situation, such as home defense against multiple intruders, actual recoil is much different between a Glock 17 and a Colt 6450 because the handgun will recoil and muzzle snap more than a pistol caliber carbine. That means the HK 94 or Colt 6450 will always be back on target, or engagint the next target, before a handgun chambered in the same caliber.

I've been in multiple real world shooting situations, and my answer is this: it comes down to control. If you can't handle a 9mm pistol, perhaps the carbine is better for your use; sure ain't for mine. And no, that's not a personal attack against you - perhaps it is better for your needs. There's no way that you'll ever convince me that it's better for my needs.

 

[SteyrAUG]

AndyC

Err... not really. You're doing it again - comparing two non-handguns to each other and coming to the conclusion that because one is a PDW, that proves a point of some kind a la "Well hey, quod erat demonstrandum - I rest my case" kinda thing. Sorry, not in the slightest. Exactly what "tremendous advantage" over a handgun did that show? Can't see it.

Ummm no.

The HK SP-89 is in FACT a handgun and can be nothing else.

If you add a stock, it does in FACT become a pistol caliber carbine AND is in FACT a PDW.

You saying it does not, does not make it so.

And I explained at length, why a SP89 converted to a carbine (by adding a stock) has many advantages over the original SP89 pistol as well as any other handgun.

AndyC
We're obviously hanging out with different shooters, then - nobody I know has any problems engaging multiple targets very quickly with a .45, let alone a 9mm, nor are they going to use a 10 lb firearm to try manage that same recoil.

It doesn't matter WHO the shooter is. The fact remains, a handgun will have more recoil and greater muzzle flip than a pistol caliber carbine. This is a constant and does not change according to the shooter.

Now the fact that a talented shooter can compensate for these issues and still engage multiple targets wel does not change the fact that he could do it even faster with a pistol caliber carbine due to the fact that it moves less and he won't have to reacquire a sight picture. And neither a HK94 or a Colt 6450 weight 10 pounds. They are both almost half that weight at around 6 pounds.

AndyC
I've been in multiple real world shooting situations, and my answer is this: it comes down to control. If you can't handle a 9mm pistol, perhaps the carbine is better for your use; sure ain't for mine. And no, that's not a personal attack against you - perhaps it is better for your needs. There's no way that you'll ever convince me that it's better for my needs.

Again, makes no difference.

The fact that a pistol caliber carbine is a more stable platform with less recoil and muzzle climb is a constant. Doesn't matter if the shooter is NSW or your girlfriend. A firearm expert, despite his talent with a handgun, will still engage mutiple targets faster simply because a pistol caliber carbine moves less.

This is because it is shouldered and as a result there is no muzzle flip so the sight picture is never broken, especially when employed by an expert.

This is pretty much the point I've been making from the start, and nothing you have said in any way invalidates it. It is like suggesting that a shooter who is prone and "slung in" really doesn't have an advantage over a shooter who is prone and not using a sling. Just because some people "can" shoot effectively that way does not change the fact that they would be more effective by adding the stablity of a correctly used sling in a prone position.

The same is true when you add a shoulder stock.

 

[Terrierman]

Because I buy guns to use and cannot feature any practical use for one.

 

[AndyC]

Ummm no.

The HK SP-89 is in FACT a handgun and can be nothing else.

Sophistry - taking a weapon which is based on something which was originally designed to be a select-fire SMG, removing the stock and neutering it to semi-auto only doesn't mean it magically becomes a handgun - even though it might meet the legal definition thereof, I care not. Carry it concealed and holstered on your hip every single day and I may be impressed, but I doubt it.

As for the rest of it, you'd trade a 2lb handgun for something 5 times as large and 3 times as heavy in the same caliber for an tiny reduction in recoil? We're never going to agree - I'm so done with this.

 

[bannockburn]

Not to get off track from the original Thompson question, but the other day I was looking at the Marstar Canada website for some milsurp stuff, and I found several modern reproductions of WWII German weapons, but in semi-auto form. Two of them are recreations of the Mkb-42 and the MP-44; interesting enough, but the one that caught my attention was the BD-38. This is the MP-38/40 sub-gun, the misnamed "Schmeisser" Machine Pistole; I don't know about owning a neutered Thompson, but something like this would definitely rate a 10 on my "Would Love To Have One" list. But would it even be possible to import an SBR like that? And even if it could be, would it only be available to Class III dealers and the like? The guns are made in Germany by a company called Sport Systeme Dittrich. Prices seemed to be around $3000 Canadian. Anybody out there know anything about these kind of things?

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

It's not practical for me now. Not enough cash for what ammounts to a toy.

 

[blo0dyhatchet]

If I could afford a full auto thompson, I'd already have one

 

[SteyrAUG]

AndyC

Sophistry - taking a weapon which is based on something which was originally designed to be a select-fire SMG, removing the stock and neutering it to semi-auto only doesn't mean it magically becomes a handgun - even though it might meet the legal definition thereof, I care not. Carry it concealed and holstered on your hip every single day and I may be impressed, but I doubt it.

Yet the POINT of my comparisson, that a stocked 9mm carbine is a more stable platfrom than ANY handgun, remains. I used the SP89 because it was essentially the same firearm to demonstrate the difference a shoulder stock makes. Apparantly this was lost on you.

AndyC
As for the rest of it, you'd trade a 2lb handgun for something 5 times as large and 3 times as heavy in the same caliber for an tiny reduction in recoil? We're never going to agree - I'm so done with this.

No, as I stated before, I'd make such a trade for a more stable and accurate weapon, higher magazine capacities and a supperior platform for weapon lights and suppressors. And being 3 times as heavy as a handgun does NOT make a heavy weapon, if only all my rifles were as light.

The bottom line is this, you tried to dismiss a pistol carbine as completely without merit. And despite all of your extensive combat experience and small arms knowledge, this simply is not true. While I agree it hardly has a place on the modern battlefield (I wouldn't even want to match up against ARs and AKs with fully select fire SMGs) a pistol caliber carbine does have many merits when it comes to home defense and personal protection.

 

[ConfuseUs]

Other: I would probably have considered owning one if they weren't so hideously expensive (for a semi-auto 16" barrel).

 

[madcratebuilder]

Besides the $..

The weight! SOB is what 10 ~ 12 lbs?

That's a lot for a subgun.

13lbs plus empty. You hang a 100 round drum on one and it's close to 20 lbs.
I don't shoot mine often, it burns the ammo fast! Most the comments are correct, it's heavy, crappy sights, uncomfortable to shoulder, but there is only one "Tommy Gun" Draws a crowd at the range, I've let a few younger kids shoot it, man did they have a smile. It is a true piece of Americana.

 

[Northwest Cajun]

It's on my list, a short list. That, a Kraig and a trap door springfield then I'll have all the service rifles issued to the US military with a metallic cartridge....
Even though it doesn't really classify as a "rifle" they are cool

 

[AndyC]

SteyrAUG, I'll condense my points down to this - it's the wrong firearm for my purposes. If it works for you, more power to you, and may neither of us ever have to find out the other was right

A happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

 

[Nicky Santoro]

why the hell don't you own a thompson?

I don't own a real Thompson because the inmates of the PRNJ can't be trusted with full auto. I don't own a semi "Thompson" because as a firearm, it is as useful as mammaries on a bull. That's why the hell I don't own one. Now run along and go back to hurting the cat and stop wasting bandwidth on stupid posts.

 

[navajo]

Tommy

I have a semi-auto M-1. Fun gun. Mainly got it, West Hurley made, for a wall hanger and did not want the hassel of a full auto.
It hangs with a Garand, 1917 Enfield, 03-A3, M-1 Carbine and an M1A.
Trying to find a soothth side AR upper for a 60s look alike M-16.

 

[jpwilly]

$$$ Way Too Much!

 

[anymanusa]

a heavy as sin rifle that shoots 45? No thanks. It's basically in my 'old piece of junk' file.

 

[Chukpike]

I have the ability to aim, and hit what I aim at. Therefore no need for a weed whacker.

 

[ElToro]

id rather have a MP5-10 if i could have any subgun.

 

[whiskeytangofoxtrot]

Because I didn't want to waste my money on something that isn't worth the asking price, and I didn't want to shoot something that compares to a 8" cinder block in weight.