Winchester 243...the better 6.5 Creedmore?

[Llama Bob]

Slow twist .243win is basically suited to being a varmint and small deer round. Fast twist .243win can fill all those roles, but is also a reasonable round for larger deer, small bears, etc. Fast twist .243 is also suitable for PRS-type shooting and potentially viable for a variety of other long range disciplines.

6.5CM is all fast twist (their first very smart decision) and isn't a very good varmint round but is great for all deer, acceptable for elk & moose and of course solid for targets where it's usually about a wash with the .243 and 6CM. All three calibers have massively benefited from Hornady's work on the ELD projectiles for target shooting.

The availability of heavy 160gr. projectiles designed for the 6.5x55 gives the 6.5CM hunting options the .243win simply doesn't have.

 

[mshootnit]

243 is a great round. Flat shooting, better varmint round than 6.5 Creedless, and just fine for deer too.
I like 6mm Remington too.
Shame that the Ruger predator is offered in 6.5 instead of 6mm Remington, but fads are what they are.

 

[Hookeye]

Barrel life................what is that?
Need a whole new bbl or just have the one set back?

 

[Bart B.]

My numbers for barrel life are to the right of 1stmarine's. They're based on match winning and record setting results conveyed to me by those doing that as well as my own over several years of my tracking such stuff. Plus Sierra Bullets' barrel lives on their test barrels as relayed to me by the guy who loaded the ammo and shot it in them. They all seemed to have 3000 rounds of barrel life when charge weight in grains equalled bore cross section area in square millimeters. Standard was starting out at 1/4 MOA average at short range then opening up 50% to 3/8ths inch. Benchresters I've talked with report about the same for their standard.
............................1stmarine..........my
Caliber.................Rounds..........Rounds
223 Rem/5.56..... 3000...............3000
243 Win...............1500...............1500
260 Rem/6.5C......2000...............2000
6.5x.284...............1500............... 800
7mm-08................4500...............2400
284Win.................2000...............2000
7mm RemMag......1500............... 800
308 Win................ 5000...............3000
30-06 Spfld........... 4000...............2500
300 Win. Mag........1500...............1000

I have a powder charge to bore capacity ratio as a standard based on 3000 round barrel lives. Divide charge weight in grains by bore cross sectional area in square millimeters. For 308 Win., it's 1:1 when their 46 grain powder charge is the same as their 46 square millimeter bore cross section and it has a 3000 round barrel life. Same as the .22 PPC with its powder charge weights. 300 Wby Mag's 92 grains of powder in the same bore has a 1:2 ratio and its barrel live is an inverse square; 750 rounds as conveyed to me by the stockmaker who designed Roy's first fancy stocks for his Weatherby rifles and was also a top ranked match competitor.

All barrels of the same type wear out at the same rate for a given cartridge. We all have different standards. Hunting bullets and commercial barrels aren't as accurate as match ones and their barrel lives are twice the life. Service bullets for combat use even less and have lives 3 to 4 times as much. .30-06 Garands barrel lives were about 10,000 rounds..

Barrel life will change a bit depending on powder's heat index; higher ones wear out barrels faster than slower ones.

 

[1stmarine]

@Bart B. ..your estimates might be better. I just put from the top of my head based on what I have
done with mine and heard from others competing with them.
As you mentioned this all changes too based on the barrel, rifling, bullets, load/powders and heat.
M40 barrels can go for 15k rounds within 1/2 moa that is more than acceptable for anyone other than perhaps elite competition.

 

[1stmarine]

Barrel life................what is that?
Need a whole new bbl or just have the one set back?

I understand. It all goes wiht ones goals and expectations.
If one is shooting an AR and burns through a barrel, one can get another inexpensive one for general use, snap it on and keep shooting.
But if one wants a consistent and accurate rifle, rebarreling can be expensive when using a top shelf match quality barrel.
Having a caliber with double the barrel life might equate to 1000 or even 2000 rounds of match ammunition that one might see as
a significant advantage.
The 243 is clearly an overbored case design and with that situation, no matter what caliber, performance suffers.
It doesn't mean is a bad caliber, it means it is impacted by its own constriction by design.

 

[Bart B.]

I've seen barrel life charts Sierra used back in the 1960's for their 168 HPMK's in 30 caliber. I knew their first ballistics manager who tested most of their bullets. A special lot of super accurate ones called "standards" we're set aside for quality control. Their 10-shot groups at 100 yards started out in the "ones" and some in the "zero's." Every few hundred rounds of a test barrel shooting 30 caliber bullets during production runs, 10 standards would be shot; their results were logged separately. Every subsequent group of standards increased very linear until they got up in the "threes." Be then, those 168's were averaging .250" for 10 shots; their accuracy limit then got those bullets. Typical test barrels using them averaged 3000 round lives.

 

[jmorris]

The best salesmen always sell what's in stock.

 

[sage5907]

It seems like the main difference between the 243 Winchester and the 6.5 Creedmoor is the operating pressure. A 243 Winchester is usually loaded to a pressure of around 50,000 whereas the Creedmoor is loaded to a pressure of 57,000 to 58,000. I was at a friends house a few weeks ago when he was trying to work up a load for the Creedmoor for long range shooting. He said I finally found a load that was accurate but it kept blowing primers. Maybe not so good. Interesting to note on Bart B's listing that Varget burns very hot and that was what my friend was using. High pressures and heat make for short case life.

 

[Bart B.]

A 243 Winchester is usually loaded to a pressure of around 50,000 whereas the Creedmoor is loaded to a pressure of 57,000 to 58,000.

Not quite according to SAAMI crusher specs which those seem to be.

6.5 Creed version max average with transducers is 62,000 psi, 243's 60,000 psi. They each have several thousand psi spreads so most of their pressures will overlap quite a bit. No copper crusher specs for the Creed, but the 243's spec is 52,000 cup.

That said, ammo factories don't have to suscribe to SAAMI specs; it's voluntary.

 

[LoonWulf]

I think the biggest difference is the same (and this has been covered) difference the .243 and 6Rem had at launch.
The 6.5CM comes in faster twist rates than the .243, which allows factory standard guns to shoot very long vld type bullets. The .243s standard twist is 1-9/10 which wont work well with the heavier VLDs. A factory rifle in 6.5 can toss a .600+ bc bullet, while its sibling .243 cant
(if there are any fast twist factory guns in .243 im not aware, but there maybe).

For the most part those long heavy bullets aren't necessary for what most of us do, but the few that can Really use them are the long range guys. Right now long range shooting, and hunting is hot, and folks like stuff like that, and its fun lol.

 

[Nature Boy]

Every time I read one of these 6.5 CM vs. (___) threads it makes me want a .260 Rem even more, just to be an old school contrarian coot

 

[JackSprat]

If your good with shooting the lighter, lower bc bullets than id be happy with the .243. Accuracy should be good, and the "normal" bullets shoot plenty flat enough for what most of us are gonna do with an over the counter sporter.
If you bought a bench rest rig for dedicated long range and/or your wanting to shoot the heavy high bc bullets id be a little bent at that sales guy.

I have both, and while i havent used the 6.5 on game yet ive shot quite a bit with the .243, and it works well. My savage is a 1-9.25 and stabilizes 96grn vlds, but I generally shoot 100gr sptizers or hunting btsp.
My 6.5 delivers 123s at 2900 (down from book velocity of 3k). larger, heavier, higher bc, bullet faster? Sure!
I'm actually looking at rebarreling the .243 to a larger dia cartridge, not because it dosent work, but just because.

LoonWulf,I just started loading for my 243 and I got a box of 100gr. Sierra ProHunters,and my 243 shoots them really well,but I noticed Midway has a deal on 100gr. Speer soft point boat tails for $12.99..I'm thinking about ordering some ,but I was worried that my 243 also in 1 in 9.25 wouldn't stabilize them well .Can you tell any difference in the way yours shoots the boat tails compared to flat base...thanks

 

[LoonWulf]

1-9.25 will stabilize those fine.

The non agressive 100grn bt bullets work ok in my 6x47 with a 1-10 also. Atleast at 100yds which is as far as ive shot them, as i normally use 100s only for pigs at much shorter range.

 

[JackSprat]

1-9.25 will stabilize those fine.

The non agressive 100grn bt bullets work ok in my 6x47 with a 1-10 also. Atleast at 100yds which is as far as ive shot them, as i normally use 100s only for pigs at much shorter range.

OK Thanks,I'll have to get me some while they still have them

 

[Offfhand]

My own real word experiences with “accuracy” barrel life pretty much align with figures posted by Bart. By “accuracy” meaning the round count within which the barrel remained competitive. Except for the .284 and 6.5-284, I’ve used all the calibers listed in at least one, usually several, target grade rifles. Of these my one time only was a 7mm/08, which I used only part of one silhouette season and gave up on after about 800+ rounds and returned to using the .308. (Which was before advent of .260 Rem, which I now use and prefer.) Would expect life of the 7mm/08 with the 150gr Sierra MK’s I used then to be about the same as that of my current .260’s with the 142 grain SMK’s loaded to similar velocities, which is somewhat over 2000 rds. Life with the two 6.5 Leopards I’ve used has been a bit short of 1000 rds, which pretty closely corresponds with numbers listed for the 6.5-284, which is to be expected. I’ve done better than 1000 rds each with two .300 Win Mags. Both of which I’m still shooting. Another caliber not listed, but should be, is the 6PPC which is widely used in benchrest competition. Most BR shooters keep good records and most will tell you that the edge is gone around 1000 rds. My own experiences with several rifles in 6PPC has ranged from 800 to 1200 rds, which is a pretty wide window, and reflects a number of factors.

 

[Bart B.]

Use this web site....

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

With bullet data from this one....

http://www.shootforum.com/forum/bulletdb.html

Then calculate a bullet's stability factor.

 

[Offfhand]

Every time I read one of these 6.5 CM vs. (___) threads it makes me want a .260 Rem even more, just to be an old school contrarian coot

A thinking man has spoken. High fives and a tip of my hat.

 

[JTHunter]

In the late '80's, I bought a secondhand Remington 700 in .243, topped with a Simmons 3-9x scope. After shooting Federal, Remington, and Winchester factory ammo (100 gr. PSPs) at 200 yds., the results were disappointing. So I got into reloading.
I started with Sierra 100 gr. spitzer boattail bullets over Accurate Arms 2230 powder. Loads were scaled and loaded from 2.5 gr. less than MAX (33.5 gr.) and tested. Best accuracy was at about 33.2-33.5 (MAX), still at 200 yds.
Then I loaded some Sierra 60 gr. HPs and tested the same way. The MAX load for the 60 gr. is 38.5 and my best accuracy was again within 0.5 gr. of MAX. When I tested the 100 gr. and 60 gr. on the same 200 yd. target on the same day, the 100s gave me a 7-shot arc that would have been 1.25" x 1.5" except for one flyer that opened the group up to about 2.5". I was shooting off of sandbags and laid the rifle down between shots as I was only putting in a single cartridge at a time. Then I fired the 60 gr. HPs in the same manner and they were only ~1" higher and same to the left (I don't remember about any "wind") using the Simmons scope set at 9x. These rounds were also made using "mixed brass" (R-P, Savage-Stevens, Fed., & Winchester) so there was some slight variance in the pressure and velocity.
As I was trying to set the scope up for a 200 yd. zero, I think this is accurate enough for me.

What do you think?

 

[salt&battery]

If one is looking for speed also consider this...

A 260 can propel 100gr bullets 100fps/avg faster & flatter than the 243 can shoot a 100gr bullet with bullets available around .4 G1.
A 7mm-08 can shoot 110-130gr bullets at the same speeds with ballistics coefficients above .4 G1.
A 308 can shoot 110-130gr bullets at the same speeds faster and same speeds with coefficients a tad below .4 G1.

In a 20" barrel considering similar cases and case volume to bore volume ratio....

- The 260 and 6.5 calibers loose less speed on average.
- The 7mm-08 even less speed on average.
- The 308 looses the least amount of speed on average.

yep the bigger the bore with the same case the better the powder burn and the barrels last longer

 

[salt&battery]

I think the biggest difference is the same (and this has been covered) difference the .243 and 6Rem had at launch.
The 6.5CM comes in faster twist rates than the .243, which allows factory standard guns to shoot very long vld type bullets. The .243s standard twist is 1-9/10 which wont work well with the heavier VLDs. A factory rifle in 6.5 can toss a .600+ bc bullet, while its sibling .243 cant
(if there are any fast twist factory guns in .243 im not aware, but there maybe).

For the most part those long heavy bullets aren't necessary for what most of us do, but the few that can Really use them are the long range guys. Right now long range shooting, and hunting is hot, and folks like stuff like that, and its fun lol.

the 6mm DTAC 115 grain bullet has a .620 BC. David Tubbs one of the best rifleman there ever was loves the 243 for 1000 yd shooting. now all of a sudden the magnificently named and marketed round the 6.5 creed is the new fad. trends are amazing to watch. the 6.5 creedmoor has attached itself to shooters like an Alabama tick onto to a hound dog. I believe like 1st Marine the old fuddy duddy 7mm-08 is better

 

[1stmarine]

yep the bigger the bore with the same case the better the powder burn and the barrels last longer

The laws of physics are going always to be there. I think sometimes people discard other calibers because they have been unjustly labeled as too heavy
or hard to shoot with heavy recoil but today we have amazing bullets and ammo options in all popular cartridges.

Just to put things into perspective.

If we choose 4 popular calibers with barrels between 20 and 22" (most hunting calibers) and compare 4 popular easy to shoot loads with similar
bullet coefficients (around .4+ G1) and SD above .2 this is what we are going to see:

-243 with 100gr will yield 2750-2800fps. This will be appropriate for mid game up to 300 yards.
-260 rem with a 120gr bullet will give 2800-2850fps that will bring the range to 400 yards for mid. game with additional momentum.
-7mm-08 rem with a 120gr bullet will yield 2900-2950fps that will bring the mid game killing capability close to 500 yards with similar momentum as the 6.5 at 400 yards.
-308w with a 125gr bullets will produce 3150fps from a 22" barrel (double tap). While BC and sectional density is a tad low vs. the others, due to the very fast speeds
obtained with faster powders, it can bring mid game range to 400 yards.

All easy to shoot, with the 308 and 7mm-08 shooting the flattest and less deflection, the 6.5mm also very flat and the 243 being a relatively flat cartridge but the last in terms
of trajectory and drift. This would be with factory ammo like hornady, winchester, remington, federal, etc... and light bullets but nothing varmint here but
proven loads for white tail, black bear and such.

Of course one could look for better ballistics in 6mm hunting bullets like VLDs but one could also do the same with 130gr 6.5 and 140gr in 7mm that shoot very flat too.
Also the 7mm with 160 to 180gr bullets and obviusly 308 can put the rounds in the heavy game category something not possible with the 6mm and marginal with the 6.5mm.

This by matching bullet weights and striking speeds to body weight accordingly by using proven track tables and simple formulas like the hits index.

Again nothing wrong with the 243 but also we should not discard others as easy to shoot calibers when we know we can shoot even flatter with pretty light bulltes yet not
too light to be bad fliers or to fall into the varmint category in terms of terminal characteristics and killing power for mid weight game.

In terms of accuracy the 243, any of the 6.5's, the 7mm-08 as well as the 308 they all are capable of amazing accuracy.

better, worse, fashionable, cool, ... those can become arbitrary and long fruitless discussions. The main thing is to know all the options, choose the bullet and then decide accordingly. Some people might like the huge range of application some calibers have some others do not care about that nor the life of the barrels.

 

[LoonWulf]

the 6mm DTAC 115 grain bullet has a .620 BC. David Tubbs one of the best rifleman there ever was loves the 243 for 1000 yd shooting. now all of a sudden the magnificently named and marketed round the 6.5 creed is the new fad. trends are amazing to watch. the 6.5 creedmoor has attached itself to shooters like an Alabama tick onto to a hound dog. I believe like 1st Marine the old fuddy duddy 7mm-08 is better

Correct but in your average over the counter 1-9/10 .243 rifle you cant shoot the dtacs.

Also as an unabashed 7mm fan id argue on the side of the 7-08 as well. Not to mention the even older 7x57

 

[horsey300]

I agree completely with most of everything said there 1stmarine, I would bump the velocity given for the .243 and .260 just a bit, my 20" .243 has thrown 100 gr bullets at 2934 over a chronograph (cold weather, will retest speed in warm weather) and accurately as well, but it does lose b.c. to the 6.5 just as the 7-08 loses bc and sd with 120-140 but gains the velocity. All of the .308 spawn have a wonderful spot chiseled into usefulness and do it with less powder than most production cartridges available to the average Joe.

 

[browningguy]

For deer hunting your gun will be just fine, the .243 is a fine cartridge. I shoot a .243 for my long range target rifle, but it has an 8.5 twist 28" barrel on it. But yes, the salesman was lying to you (big shock huh), as good as the .243 is the big 6.5's are better for long range. If you want to shoot the 107 SMK's, heavy Bergers, 115 DTAC in the .243 then you need the 8-8.5 twist, and they still don't match the BC of the best 6.5 bullets.