Winchester 'Green Tip' to be "Banned"

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NIGHTLORD40K said:
If they forbid all non-Govt contract production for commercial sale, it will have an effect on supply prices across the board.
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That is specifically not what is happening. Government Owned/Commercially Operated ammunition plants are all that this concerns. AND it is of a ammunition type that they are abandoning for a new design/designation.
 
trackskippy said:
I never understood how that got by the armor piercing ammo bans. Everything else supposedly armor piercing, that was chambered in any kind of "pistol" at some point, was banned, yet the 5.56 "Green Tip" gets a wave? Hows that work?
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It's the percentage of steel in the round since it is just the tip (low percentage) the atf has deemed it legal....it is definitely not as good as the old norinco 7.62x39 steel core ammo that would shoot through decent sized trees and steel plates
 
hso said:
Not understanding that it isn't AP is the source of confusion.
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My understanding of the rules is that if the round has a "penetrator" and will defeat a vest when fired from a "handgun", its considered to be. Has that changed?
 
trackskippy said:
My understanding of the rules is that if the round has a "penetrator" and will defeat a vest when fired from a "handgun", its considered to be. Has that changed?
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Not sure that was ever a rule vests come in all different levels and pistols now can be bought in large rifle calibers
 
Airborne77 said:
Not sure that was ever a rule vests come in all different levels and pistols now can be bought in large rifle calibers
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My 257 weatherby with sierra game king expanding bullet will shoot through 3/8" thick ar500 steel plate and 556 green tip just scratches it.....those plates are used in level 4 vests
 
trackskippy said:
I never understood how that got by the armor piercing ammo bans. Everything else supposedly armor piercing, that was chambered in any kind of "pistol" at some point, was banned, yet the 5.56 "Green Tip" gets a wave? Hows that work?
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It's not armor piercing, it's a soft steel piece inside that helps it penetrate soft steel. "Penetrator" not "Armor Piercing".
 
hso said:
That is specifically not what is happening. Government Owned/Commercially Operated ammunition plants are all that this concerns. AND it is of a ammunition type that they are abandoning for a new design/designation.
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I was only referring to LC. Have you an seen actual official release saying this will only concern the M855 contract overruns and not all the other ammo Winchester makes there for commercial sale. I searched the web and couldn't find anything other than unnamed source "reporting."
Yes, this all might amount to nothing- or it could have a significant effect on overall supply and drive up prices.
Its too soon to tell.
 
I may be misremembering here, but back when the "cop killer" bullets were penetrating pistol caliber vests, they started banning anything that, when fired from a "handgun", and would penetrate a cops soft vest, was considered to be AP in that respect.

And as I understood it, that was one of the reasons that 7.62x51, among others, like the PMC airfoil rounds, etc, were initially banned. This isnt about traditional "armor".
 
trackskippy said:
I may be misremembering here, but back when the "cop killer" bullets were penetrating pistol caliber vests, they started banning anything that, when fired from a "handgun", and would penetrate a cops soft vest, was considered to be AP in that respect.

And as I understood it, that was one of the reasons that 7.62x51, among others, like the PMC airfoil rounds, etc, were initially banned. This isnt about traditional "armor".
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trackskippy said:
I never understood how that got by the armor piercing ammo bans. Everything else supposedly armor piercing, that was chambered in any kind of "pistol" at some point, was banned, yet the 5.56 "Green Tip" gets a wave? Hows that work?
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I guess you missed the entire Obama-era ATF attempt to ban M855 in 2015.

ATF issued a notice of proposed rule-making with a comment period and everything, but withdrew the proposal after overwhelming negative comments and Republican legislator pushback.

It was the ATFs position that since there were so many AR pistols in circulation, M855 was now a pistol caliber subject to the armor piercing handgun ammo ban.

https://www.newsweek.com/obamas-proposed-ban-green-tip-bullets-misfires-313453?amp=1
 
Technically, I think the ATF's position was correct, and it met the definition of "the law", as silly and stupid as it is.

So, since it was ruled against, why werent the others also deemed to be the same as the Green Tips too? Or is it a fear thing, and the mentality is, dont push it, just let them have the others, we won this one?
 
I think “smoke & mirrors” is right … not the fact that there are other suppliers or even that LC quit producing it …
He (Biden/Dems) knew it wasn’t anything of consequence but would get 2A people etc seeing red and fan the flames of the anti-gun movement and it would cost them nothing.

It makes me wonder, what the hell are the up to? What are they trying to divert our attention from?
 
P5 Guy said:
Who thinks this is an original idea of Biden's?
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The difference is Biden isn’t attempting to ban M855, just eliminate the sale of M855 manufactured on government-owned equipment to civilians.

The whole ‘smoke and mirrors’ aspect to the attempted 2015 ban was that the purpose behind banning armor piercing handgun ammunition was for officer safety, but in fact ANY .223/5.56 can penetrate most officer’s ballistic vests, so banning just M855 would not have increased officer safety.
 
trackskippy said:
So, since it was ruled against, why werent the others also deemed to be the same as the Green Tips too? Or is it a fear thing, and the mentality is, dont push it, just let them have the others, we won this one?
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M855 was granted a sporting purpose exemption by the ATF under a 1986 law, and it was this exemption that Obama was attempting to eliminate.

I believe a similar sporting purpose exemption is granted to 7.62 NATO black tip and 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 steel core ammunition.
 
hso said:
What other? All the equipment at GOCO plants is government. The management and operations are contracted out. Only out of spec and overruns on government contracted ammo is available for sale to the public.
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Someone must still be contracting for 55 grain .223 and a number of different 7.62x51 loads because there is a bunch of LC marked stuff for sale online right now.
If all of this is over-run production, it could all be removed from the market along with the green-tips.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
If all of this is over-run
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Over-run and out of spec. The loose boxes I have of out of spec are marked "Training Purposes Only".

The Operators of these government ammo manufacturing plants get to sell out of spec and overruns as part of saving the Fed money (and improving their fee for operating them). A GOCO only makes what is contracted by the Fed on equipment owned by the Fed in a Fed facility. They do not get to manufacture anything the government hasn't contracted for. They sell off over run and out of spec only.
 
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hso said:
Technically, nope

The bullet was never "armor piercing". We marketed it that way, but the government classification wasn't AP.
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But by what definition? Actual AP, or AP according to the law they were citing?

Everything the ATF and government do seems to be nothing but smoke and mirrors, and copious amounts of Allan Greenspan.... "I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”. :)
 
I read that Biden wanted Lake City (Winchester) to cease all civilian sales of .223/5.56 ammo of any type. Maybe I read that wrong, but it sounds like something the Democrats would try. Obama tried when he was President and failed, now it's Sleepy Joe's turn.
 
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