Woman armed with shotgun blasts 'crazed' home intruder
- Thread starter Desertdog
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I feel differently. It's a terrible thing when someone dies, particularly for stupid choices/reasons and it's terrible someone has to live with taking a human life, but while the outcome possibly could have been better, it could have also been worse.
Maybe "win" isn't the best term, but If I survived such an encounter I wouldn't consider myself the loser.
My gosh - she defended herself from an assault. That's all that matters in my book.
What's with all this 'he's drunk, he thought it was his own house' stuff? Frankly, if you take anything that impairs your judgment that much and then go break into someone's house, you run the risk of getting shot. What if he did think it was his own house, he breaks in and finds her, and then beats her unconscious for being in 'his' house? People do stupid things when they are under the influence, but that doesn't remove the consequences of their actions.
What's with all this 'he's drunk, he thought it was his own house' stuff? Frankly, if you take anything that impairs your judgment that much and then go break into someone's house, you run the risk of getting shot. What if he did think it was his own house, he breaks in and finds her, and then beats her unconscious for being in 'his' house? People do stupid things when they are under the influence, but that doesn't remove the consequences of their actions.
Deanimator
Member
As I once said to a Brit who said that people shouldn't have guns because they'd shoot drunks breaking into the wrong house:
If you have such a problem with alcohol that it causes you to try to break into other people's homes, STOP DRINKING.
If you can't or don't want to STOP DRINKING, expect to get SHOT if you break into somebody else's home.
Your drinking is YOUR problem and I don't care one bit about it.
Your breaking into my home is MY problem, and my way of dealing with that problem involves a Norinco M1911 and 200gr. Hornady TAP. Don't like that?
STOP DRINKING.
Ok, maybe they should rescind that invitation for her to join SEAL Team 6. Other than that, DON'T GET DRUNK AND TRY TO FORCE YOUR WAY INTO THE HOMES OF STRANGERS.
Deanimator
Member
This is eerily reminiscent of an incident in the Houston area in the '90s when a drunken Scotsman bailed out of a taxi, scaled a tall fence and began trying to kick in the home owner's back door. He was ordered to cease and desist and that he would be shot if he made it through the door. He succeeded in kicking in part of the door and was shot.
Drooling simpletons, especially in the UK, decried the inability of drunken ignoramuses to commit home invasions in safety in the United States. The ones stupid enough to say this in public were humiliated by a lot of people, myself included.
If drinking makes you commit home invasions, STOP DRINKING.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, you left out the fact where he had to FIGHT OFF HER DOG FIRST and CLIMB OVER A LOCKED GATE.
I'd say that's plenty of warning that you are in the wrong place.
Unreal some of the comments.....
highorder
Member
It seems to me that some people think that drunks are a "victim" of alcohol.
You know, like the booze is inflicting damage, not the person with the drink in their hand.
Seems like some people feel that way about guns, no?...
You know, like the booze is inflicting damage, not the person with the drink in their hand.
Seems like some people feel that way about guns, no?...
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
"That bottle of Thunderbird MADE me drive into that school bus....." I can hear it now....
LeonCarr
Member
Anybody who says they would not be afraid in a situation like that is a lying sack of fecal matter, regardless of their training.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
FIVETWOSEVEN
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i would warn the person first but she did right.
BCC
Member
I think she did an amazingly good job on her 911 call.
She called for assistance
She gave a clear, concise address
She described what was taking place
She kept 911 informed as events unfolded
She made it clear she did not want to have to shoot, but would to defend herself
She told 911 about the dogs, keys, gate, house
She conveyed remorse at having to shoot the intruder
She told dispatch she would put the safety back on when the police arrived
She secured the gun once the threat was over and before the police were on site
She let 911 know her son was a cop
I feel sorry for the woman. a hell of a thing to go through.
She had to defend herself and she acted correctly in a very stressful situation.
She called for assistance
She gave a clear, concise address
She described what was taking place
She kept 911 informed as events unfolded
She made it clear she did not want to have to shoot, but would to defend herself
She told 911 about the dogs, keys, gate, house
She conveyed remorse at having to shoot the intruder
She told dispatch she would put the safety back on when the police arrived
She secured the gun once the threat was over and before the police were on site
She let 911 know her son was a cop
I feel sorry for the woman. a hell of a thing to go through.
She had to defend herself and she acted correctly in a very stressful situation.
Deanimator
Member
"...while driving the wrong way on Hwy 31w" (That actually happened, killing some school kids from the Ft. Knox area.)
If somebody wants to get blind drunk and stick a fork into a wall socket, that's fine by me. When he drags ME into his black hole of stupidity, he gets no breaks which would increase MY risk in ANY way. The State of Ohio doesn't expect me to give him any such breaks to my own peril either.
I'm not a substance abuse counselor. I'm ESPECIALLY not a substance abuse counselor for strangers who kick down my door or break my windows in search of my "services".
NOBODY has the right to impose the risks arising out of their own irresponsible behavior onto OTHER people. I have absolutely NO sympathy for the imbecile who comes to a violent end when he does so.
ByAnyMeans
Member
I give this lady an A+ in my book.
She heard a threat and evaluated the situation. She knew the threat was on the outside and had not breached her house. As the threat increased she became more ready to react. She knew her weapon well enough to chamber a round, work the safety as needed as well as the trigger and poa/poi to make a one shot stopping hit as well as her round count after. She also knew the limitations of her weapon and did not want to be contained in a small room when she had a solid fixed position on the threat. She even killed the lights to limit his visibility into the house. She never said the shotgun was to big for her but rather to big to fire one handed so she would drop the phone to properly shoulder the gun.
I know their are some who say to hang up after giving all necessary information to 911 but given her son was a police officer she was probably told to stay on the line or made what was a rational decision to her to stay on the line to relay info as she did. She made statements that did not sound good that were recorded but many statements after that show no desire to have killed him. Their are some who say to fire a warning shot but others who disagree. Their are some who say to yell a warning but others that liken that to not having your shotgun ready to go and gives to much vital info to the threat when a noise is made. Individuals have to make their own decisions regarding their specific situation. Castle Doctrines are a way to protect homeowners right to make their individual decision.
Their are definitely things that would of been better such as a short barreled shotgun with it's maximum capacity instead of the three rounds she had, a pistol to have cleared the house with on her way to taking up a fixed position, and a hands free headset if she planned to stay on the phone. That being said not everyone is professionally trained and others don't posses the skills of a ninja so they do what they can.
I have read it here before but forget who said it "Run the gun you got".
She ran it and ran it well.
She heard a threat and evaluated the situation. She knew the threat was on the outside and had not breached her house. As the threat increased she became more ready to react. She knew her weapon well enough to chamber a round, work the safety as needed as well as the trigger and poa/poi to make a one shot stopping hit as well as her round count after. She also knew the limitations of her weapon and did not want to be contained in a small room when she had a solid fixed position on the threat. She even killed the lights to limit his visibility into the house. She never said the shotgun was to big for her but rather to big to fire one handed so she would drop the phone to properly shoulder the gun.
I know their are some who say to hang up after giving all necessary information to 911 but given her son was a police officer she was probably told to stay on the line or made what was a rational decision to her to stay on the line to relay info as she did. She made statements that did not sound good that were recorded but many statements after that show no desire to have killed him. Their are some who say to fire a warning shot but others who disagree. Their are some who say to yell a warning but others that liken that to not having your shotgun ready to go and gives to much vital info to the threat when a noise is made. Individuals have to make their own decisions regarding their specific situation. Castle Doctrines are a way to protect homeowners right to make their individual decision.
Their are definitely things that would of been better such as a short barreled shotgun with it's maximum capacity instead of the three rounds she had, a pistol to have cleared the house with on her way to taking up a fixed position, and a hands free headset if she planned to stay on the phone. That being said not everyone is professionally trained and others don't posses the skills of a ninja so they do what they can.
I have read it here before but forget who said it "Run the gun you got".
She ran it and ran it well.
Deanimator
Member
Warning shots are an epic fail.
You're responsible for ALL of your projectiles and where they go.
If she didn't have a clearing barrel in her living room, one wonders WHERE she was supposed to fire that warning shot.
Of course, in a sense, she did fire a warning shot. It was a warning to other drugged and drunken pinheads that home invasions are dangerous for the home INVADER too.
NMGonzo
Member
And the lesson is; drugs are bad, and nice ladies will turn blast you away if you mess with them.
Lou McGopher
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- 507
I may have heard wrong, but I think the lady was saying that if she had to fire (it was a 16ga), she'd have to put down the phone first.
And has anyone mentioned yet how long it took after the 911 dispatcher was notified of the intruder for the police to arrive?
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
20 minutes according to a news report I read when the other day. Shooting was about 10 minutes into the call the article said.
ByAnyMeans
Member
I believe it was the twenty-third minute till she positively identified a police office was their.
-Thirteen minutes after he broke in.
-Twenty-two and a half minutes after the 911 operators said to the officers or a supervisor in the back ground that it was a serious threat, she could hear the suspect and the banging.
-Twenty minutes after the 911 operator confirmed the corner of the neighorhood she lived in.
The only thing that gave her a chance was the weapon in her hand. The cops can only get their so fast even when they know it's a serious threat and the location of your house. Not a knock on them, they can only be so many places at one time.
-Thirteen minutes after he broke in.
-Twenty-two and a half minutes after the 911 operators said to the officers or a supervisor in the back ground that it was a serious threat, she could hear the suspect and the banging.
-Twenty minutes after the 911 operator confirmed the corner of the neighorhood she lived in.
The only thing that gave her a chance was the weapon in her hand. The cops can only get their so fast even when they know it's a serious threat and the location of your house. Not a knock on them, they can only be so many places at one time.
Madcap_Magician
Member
Outstanding, IMHO.
1. She was armed and while she may not have been comfortable with the shotgun, she evidently knew how to use it.
2. She dialed 911 and kept the operator up to date on everything that was happening.
3. She sounded like she was scared out of her mind, but kept relatively calm.
4. She was justifiably in fear for her life and defended herself well, while giving the perpetrator maximum opportunity to leave.
1. She was armed and while she may not have been comfortable with the shotgun, she evidently knew how to use it.
2. She dialed 911 and kept the operator up to date on everything that was happening.
3. She sounded like she was scared out of her mind, but kept relatively calm.
4. She was justifiably in fear for her life and defended herself well, while giving the perpetrator maximum opportunity to leave.
Deanimator
Member
But of course those of us with two braincells to rub together know that 911 is a communications system of variable efficacy, NOT a matter transporter or a cloning machine.
Assuming fanatical zealousness on the part of the police where you live:
1. Your assailant has to ALLOW you to get to a phone, ALLOW you to dial 911, and ALLOW you to communicate coherently and effectively with the 911 operator(s) (more on THAT later). I wonder how many people (nevermind elderly women) can calmly converse on the telephone, providing relevant information, while somebody is trying to break in... or chasing them around the house with a butcher knife?
2. 911 has to be WORKING. Sometimes it ISN'T.
3. There has to be someone on the other end available to take your call. Sometimes there isn't. Ready to outrun that knife wielding maniac a little longer while you're on hold?
4. You may have to talk to MULTIPLE 911 operators. A few years ago, I called 911 to report a man passed out in the gutter in front of a bar in Lakewood, Ohio. After calmly and accurately providing the relevant information to the 911 operator, I was transferred to ANOTHER 911 operator to whom I had to provide the SAME information all over again. Again, not a big deal while you outrun that knife wielding maniac, right?
5. You have to get an intelligent human being on the line at 911. The SECOND 911 operator with whom I talked during the incident with the unconscious man interpreted my clear description of him being "unconscious and unresponsive in the gutter in front of X bar", as him being "on the roof". After wasting a good deal of time explaining that the victim was neither on the roof nor had he been dragged into the storm drains by giant radioactive ants, Kelly Bundy at 911 was apparently FAR more interested in my personal contact information than in the condition of the subject.
6. 911 has to relay your call to the police, and do so ACCURATELY. If they give those fanatically zealous police the wrong address, you'll be running from "Michael Meyers" even longer. If they don't notify the police AT ALL, perhaps because they want you to put the wouldbe murderer on the line (which actually happened in Detroit) first, you've got a LOT of running to do. Getting tired yet?
7. There have to BE police available to answer the call. If there are only enough cops available to take care of your "Michael Meyers" problem, somebody else's "Jason Voorhees" problem, or a third person's "Leatherface" problem, but NOT all three, whom should they pick, and what recourse do you have if you lose the coin toss? Here's a hint: NONE.
8. The police have to be not just zealous, but competent. They have to be able to follow instructions and read addresses.
9. ALL of that has to work correctly in order for those zealous cops to show up at your door, AT ALL, nevermind in enough time to "protect" you.
10. If the cops in your town AREN'T zealous...
If none of this were true, nobody would have bothered to write a book called "Dial 911 and Die".
When you're in danger of deadly force RIGHT NOW, be prepared to defend YOURSELF, or be prepared not to get "protected" AT ALL.
sheepdog
Member
Deanimator is right...
...a lot of 911 operators act like they couldn't handle "one and one..."...and put both us and the officers on the street in jeapordy...at least a dozen times, I've called the police, given every detail needed...repeated myself and answered their questions...again...and when the officer got there, he hadn't been given much, if any, of the details I'd given...and wasn't sure why he was there....this in several jurisdictions....I'd much rather see street officers rotate through dispatch for a week or so every few months...they KNOW what their brothers/sisters out there need to do their job more safely...
...a lot of 911 operators act like they couldn't handle "one and one..."...and put both us and the officers on the street in jeapordy...at least a dozen times, I've called the police, given every detail needed...repeated myself and answered their questions...again...and when the officer got there, he hadn't been given much, if any, of the details I'd given...and wasn't sure why he was there....this in several jurisdictions....I'd much rather see street officers rotate through dispatch for a week or so every few months...they KNOW what their brothers/sisters out there need to do their job more safely...
The dispatcher didn't do a very good job of keeping her informed initially of what the dispatcher is doing.
The woman is remarkably calm on the phone and giving instructions on how the police can get into the yard and in giving the dispatcher the outdoor dog's name and asking about if specific officers are on duty that she knows.
The dispatcher tells the homeowner that county tells her that she can defend her property (not always the exact correct info) with the weapon, but it is assumed that the dispatcher is relaying that the country officer en route is telling her she can defend herself.
I wonder why she never warned him off, especially if she thought he was drunk, but people don't always do what we think we would do under stress.
She has the presence of mind to tell the dispatcher several times that she has a shotgun and that she has the weapon off safe and that she'll put the safety on as soon as the dispatcher tells her the officers are there. My interpretation is that she wanted to avoid shooting the intruder and wanted to assure the dispatcher that she wouldn't shoot the officers. With her son being LE I can see the concern for the safety of the responding officers.
It is a relief that the dispatcher tells her repeatedly that she was only defending herself and that she had the right to do so instead of telling her that she had to be a victim.
The woman is remarkably calm on the phone and giving instructions on how the police can get into the yard and in giving the dispatcher the outdoor dog's name and asking about if specific officers are on duty that she knows.
The dispatcher tells the homeowner that county tells her that she can defend her property (not always the exact correct info) with the weapon, but it is assumed that the dispatcher is relaying that the country officer en route is telling her she can defend herself.
I wonder why she never warned him off, especially if she thought he was drunk, but people don't always do what we think we would do under stress.
She has the presence of mind to tell the dispatcher several times that she has a shotgun and that she has the weapon off safe and that she'll put the safety on as soon as the dispatcher tells her the officers are there. My interpretation is that she wanted to avoid shooting the intruder and wanted to assure the dispatcher that she wouldn't shoot the officers. With her son being LE I can see the concern for the safety of the responding officers.
It is a relief that the dispatcher tells her repeatedly that she was only defending herself and that she had the right to do so instead of telling her that she had to be a victim.
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Wow - I'm really surprised at some of the comments here. Personally I thought she did great. IMO, she didn't become unglued until after she shot the guy - until then she was very calm, rational - she didn't grab her shotgun first and then the phone, she called 911, gave the dispatcher very clear, concise information throughout the entire ordeal. And hell yeah she was scared - I would have been, and my wife surely would have been, but she handled herself better than one would have expected. She didn't grab the gun until well into the ordeal - she did not present the weapon until it needed to be used.
How was the dispatcher incompetent? She told her repeatedly that police were on the way, she kept her talking, relayed every piece of info to the police in transit, did a good job of consoling and reassuring the homeowner while maintaining her professionalism - what more could she have done?
And I'm sorry, I don't buy this argument that she should have tried to talk this guy out of it or fired a warning shot. He was drunk and high and irrational - and I'm sorry for those here who have struggled with addiction, and I think it's great that you have overcome it, but the fact that he was under many influences is not an excuse to break into a house - First off, we have no idea what transpired before the call, second the guy scaled a fence, fought off at least one dog, and forcefully tried to enter the residence. He wasn't banging on the door and the lady shot him through the glass, HE through a chair through a glass door to gain entry to the residence - this is not someone who will respond to a conversation.
But people who are against firearms in the home need to listen to this tape. everything was done right, and yet the homeowner still had to defend herself that's not the fault of the police, or the dispatcher - it's just a matter of real estate - police cannot be everywhere, and so we cannot rely on them to get us out of a situation like this.
How was the dispatcher incompetent? She told her repeatedly that police were on the way, she kept her talking, relayed every piece of info to the police in transit, did a good job of consoling and reassuring the homeowner while maintaining her professionalism - what more could she have done?
And I'm sorry, I don't buy this argument that she should have tried to talk this guy out of it or fired a warning shot. He was drunk and high and irrational - and I'm sorry for those here who have struggled with addiction, and I think it's great that you have overcome it, but the fact that he was under many influences is not an excuse to break into a house - First off, we have no idea what transpired before the call, second the guy scaled a fence, fought off at least one dog, and forcefully tried to enter the residence. He wasn't banging on the door and the lady shot him through the glass, HE through a chair through a glass door to gain entry to the residence - this is not someone who will respond to a conversation.
But people who are against firearms in the home need to listen to this tape. everything was done right, and yet the homeowner still had to defend herself that's not the fault of the police, or the dispatcher - it's just a matter of real estate - police cannot be everywhere, and so we cannot rely on them to get us out of a situation like this.
alsaqr
Member
The Lincoln country, OK DA gave the lady a pass yesterday, four days after she shot the perp. Yep, OK is a good place to live.
http://newsok.com/law-allows-fatal-shot-lincoln-county-official-says/article/3423575
The DA's letter exonerating the lady.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/documents/d8shooting.pdf
http://newsok.com/law-allows-fatal-shot-lincoln-county-official-says/article/3423575
The DA's letter exonerating the lady.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/documents/d8shooting.pdf
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