Woman at church

[Quoheleth]

Need some feedback on this situation at church.

A woman at church is in the middle of a nasty separation. Her husband moved out but frequently enters the home when she's away at work. As the house is jointly theirs (divorce is not even begun) the cops have told her, basically, unless he physically threatens her she cannot even get a restraining order. She can change the locks, but as it's his house too, he legally can break in -- just like if he locked himself out of the house.

Saturday, he did one of his sudden appearances. Scared the woman badly. According to her, he made a rather veiled threat by referencing the Garth Brooks song with the line, "Momma's in the grave yard and Poppa's in the pen."

A friend advised her to get a handgun and a CCL. She doesn't have the money for either.

For a moment, and just a moment, I thought of loaning her a pistol for self-defense. As fast as the thought entered my mind, I stopped it -- that's all sorts of trouble waiting, and none of it will be good for me. I also fleetingly thought about selling her a handgun. Nope...not any better. In the two seconds these thoughts flittered through my brain, she said something about she wouldn't even know how to use it if she had it. Something clicked...

I've taught several women to shoot. Three have gone on to get their Texas CHLs. One just wanted to learn what to do "just in case." None were perceiving any personal threat.

I am not a trained instructor. I am a gun enthusiast who enjoys helping others learn a little bit about shooting, gun safety, and how they work. Would I be out of my mind, knowing what I know about her situation, to offer to take her to the range and give her some basic shooting lessons? She would use my guns at the range only, and none would leave my possession. What she does with that experience is up to her: purchase a handgun, take an official, professionally-taught class, or walk away from guns completely.

Is this opening myself up for all sorts of liability? Is my pastoral desire to help this woman protect herself and her kids clouding my better judgement?

[The only advice I gave her yesterday is that, in Texas, she can legally carry a loaded firearm in her home and in her car without a license and that if she is gravely fearful for her life (repeated those four words several times) she is justified in lethal use of the gun. I also carefully said "I am not a lawyer, and a lawyer might tell you differently."]

Q

 

[jimmyraythomason]

WOW that is a toughie. My older daughter is experiencing the same thing. Her soon to be ex is a police officer and is abusive (VERBALLY not physically) and my daughter was able to get a restraining order. She and her daughter have moved in with us. She has her CCW but didn't have a handgun so I gave her my S&W Model 36 and Remington Golden Sabres. Not the same situation as far as you're concerned I know but very close. I pray for her safety but can't offer you more.

 

[walker944]

Not an attorney....
But I thought that in Texas if one of the spouse left the domicile then, in essence, they were now residing somewhere else; and because of this, they had given up some rights to the residence. When I went through a seperation (no paper filed yet), I was told I could NOT come and go as I pleased after I "moved out". Even though a crap load of my things were still in the house, I was told I had to wait for a court order to retrieve them, or ask my now ex-wife for them. But, the gist of it was it was now her residence, and not mine, as far as the cops were concerned. In fact, I was there to see my kids one morning and she told me to leave, when I didn't immediately respond, she pulled a .357 on me and pulled the hammer back. I left immediately at that point. When I spoke to a police officer about it, he informed me that since I was the one that left the relationship, she now has full physical control over the house. Whether that was right or not, I have no idea.

 

[ArmedBear]

I know one person who was murdered, and that was pretty close to the situation. I don't think he sang Garth Brooks. He said something about "'til death do us part."

She was a tough lady, a good shot, and she had a panic button alarm in the house. She's dead now from multiple stab wounds.

Can you see that this woman gets the hell out of Dodge?

 

[Maelstrom]

It might sound cold-hearted but some people get themselves into trouble and simply have to get themselves out.

If you're not mandated by law to intercede then you get guarantee trouble from the husband if you do.

She married the guy, you didn't.

Besides, you should be hard-pressed to take the word of any woman in the process of a divorce. Some crazy line about Hell, fury, and scorned women comes to mind.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

You're right Maelstrom...that is cold hearted.

 

[Maelstrom]

Tell me Jimmy, do you travel the country rescuing kids out of mineshafts? Do you patrol the oceans looking for divers whose tanks have run dry?

The question is, is it really your responsibility to to get everyone out of trouble when they've gotten themselves in over their heads?

If she's honestly, truly in fear for her life she wouldn't keep going back home. People don't voluntarily go to the slaughterhouse. If she's scared of this guy then she needs to get a divorce and make it quick. Shooting the guy dead isn't her primary concern, getting away is.

I'm no coward, but I'm not going to risk making my wife and kids homeless.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I never said you were a coward and if you do those things you listed I applaud you. Are you suggesting that I leave my daughter to save herself from a mistake she made where the consequences could prove fatal? I think not! In this case I call up the famous Edmund Burke quote (If you don't know it,look it up). I'm the first for minding my own business in most cases but I'm thankful I'm not in a position where I have to make such a choice. In my case now, she is my daughter and THAT makes the choice for me.

 

[Maelstrom]

Your daughter is a whole different ballgame. I've got no problem with someone who protects family. On the contrary, it's your responsibility. But the OP isn't talking about family. He's thinking about sticking his neck out for someone he knows.

 

[Lou McGopher]

wwthrd?

 

[jimmyraythomason]

He is her pastor. He has no legal obligation to help her for sure BUT there is a moral obligation there that non-clergy wont understand. As I said I am not in that situation and am sorry I can't offer him any helpful advice. I certainly won't tell him that it's her problem,let her deal with it. I once witnessed a women rappelling from Noccolulla Falls in Gadsden,Al. She got her long hair caught in her slide and was slowly slipping down. She was in that predicament by her own doing. She made the choice to rappel,she made the choice to wear her hair long and not have it properly tied up. Should she be told to get herself out of it since she put herself into it? I really don't see much difference. Sorry OP for not being any help to you.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

.
Not a lawyer, but am an officer.


Depending on the state he should be able to get a no contact order, order for protection, ex parte order or all 3 against him. (Like I said, depending on what state).



Doesn't mean she can keep him out of the house, but it is a start.


However, she might want to do that after she's finalized the divorce and/or moved out.

.

 

[zombienerd]

I'd bring her to the range to teach her how to handle a gun... You have no liability for teaching someone how to shoot. It's a sport, didn't you know?

What she may or may not do with that information is up to her, and you cannot be held liable for her actions.

Even if you taught her how to shoot and sold or gave her a gun, you are still not liable. People sell guns to other people every day, if the purchaser commits a crime, the seller is not liable.

 

[kingpin008]

If she's honestly, truly in fear for her life she wouldn't keep going back home. People don't voluntarily go to the slaughterhouse.

Bunk. My mother recently got out of an abusive relationship (verbal, then finally physical) with a man that she had been with for over a decade. My mother was a strong, powerful, no-bull**** woman, until this man wormed his way into her life. At first he was prince charming, but by the end, she was so cowed that she wasn't able to pull herself away.

People become accustomed to abuse, and they become convinced they deserve it. It stops being something that they can control. She *knew* that he treated her like dirt, and she *knew* he was starting to turn violent. She just couldn't figure out a way to get out.

So yes, sometimes people DO voluntarily go to the slaughterhouse. Sometimes even the most rational, sane person in the world makes bad decisions and end up being hurt or killed because of them. Luckily, my mom had enough before he killed her.

Does that mean that the OP should help his fellow church member? That's hard to say. Personally, I would at least teach the woman some basic gun handling and shooting skills, and maybe get her some pepper spray. As others said, it's up to her to take the initiative to actually carry/use a gun if she needs to, and nothing I can do is going to change that. But if she does decide to go that route, at least I can feel better knowing that she's had some familiarization with the rules and operation beforehand.

 

[ClayInTX]

I beg to differ with some suggestions given herein. Is there ever was potential for BIG TROUBLE down the road this is IT!

Scenario: Regardless of how she got it, she has a gun. Regardless of the reason or threat, she kills or wounds her husband.

If the husband is dead some prosecutor wanting to make a name for himself gets the case.
If the husband is wounded he gets a lawyer, or, actually, some lawyer sees money and gets the husband.

Neither the prosecutor nor the lawyer are going after the wife; she’s a poor assaulted woman who had to defend herself. These guys are on the trail of the gun and whoever influenced her to get it, whoever loaned it to her, whoever gave it to her, whoever taught her how to use it, whoever told her she should get one.

There’s bad news and good news here:
The bad news is: The OP can be sued for everything he owns and if he’s her pastor so can the church.
The good news is: I lied about there being any good news.

If I was in the situation of the OP I would keep my mouth shut about any kind of weapon, or use of a weapon, and not even ask her if she has access to one. It’s a lose/lose affair for the OP no matter which way it’s cut when it concerns a gun, or any kind of weapon.

Is it a cop-out? Perhaps, but there’s no good way to cop-in.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Or nobody could do anything to help her and the husband stabs her to death and maybe the children too.

 

[kingpin008]

If she "had to defend herself", then what would it matter who taught her, who gave her the gun, etc?

Either it's a good shoot or it's not. Teaching her how to use and safely handle a gun isn't going to change that. Neither is buying/loaning her a gun.

Even if the prosecutor wanted to nail the helpful pastor to the wall, what grounds would he have to do so? It's not illegal to teach someone how to shoot, and as long as she's not a convicted felon, it's not illegal to buy or sell her a gun. I seriously doubt that they could make anything stick if they were so foolish as to try to prosecute.

 

[Cosmoline]

I think you know way too much at this point to get involved without potential liability.

She needs to get herself out of this hole, nobody else can do it for her.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I hope if something were to happen to me that my daughter wouldn't have to come to THR for help. Thankfully our pastor is willing to help. He has already offered to let her and her daughter stay with him and his wife for protection. It wasn't needed as she has us. I would hate to think that in our absence that everybody would just turn their collective backs on her and tell her to get herself out of it the best way she could.

 

[RustyHammer]

... first step for her to do is hire an attorney. When they get through, he won't own anything, let alone in the house!

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Having an attorney is great but does little if the husband doesn't abide by a restraining order. Not many abusive exhusbands do. It has already been stated that she doesn't have the money for a gun and the last I checked a lawyer is more expensive.

 

[Quoheleth]

Lest anyone think this was a post and ditch the thread, I'm reading and prayerfully contemplating.

I hadn't thought of a possibility of involving the church in a legal mix...thanks for that caveat.

At this point, I'll briefly say this: I am not her private security. I know that. I am her pastor and the pastor of her children. But should something happen to her by the hubby, I do not know how I would live with that.

A very thin line: teach a fellow citizen and member of my church how to shoot a gun and potentially be able to use it to save herself at the risk of potential personal and professional liability should something happen.

Q

 

[CoRoMo]

Clay's approach seems to imply that Texas's castle doctrine would not offer any amount of the civil or legal protection that I always hear and read that it does.

I'd be overwhelmed with utter astonishment if there was a lawyer who'd even touch a case that went after any party on the successful side of a good shoot in the castle doctrine state of Texas.

If you're compelled to protect someone you love or otherwise feel responsible for, do what you must. Don't cower under a table in fear of some litigious retribution.

 

[mptrimshop]

you guys are cold...... ask the woman if she wants to learn how to shoot...obviously this has come up...you spoke of her saying "I wouldn't even know what to do with it"..... So the tough has crossed her mind. How would you feel if she went out and bought a gun with no advise or guidance from someone that has experience and killed herself accidentally due to improper handling. You obviously want to help her.... if the man does harm or kill her How are you going to feel thinking that you could have helped. this look the other way thing sounds like something you would hear in the ghetto . . . who knows maybe the man is not threatened her at at all; maybe she thinks you're cute.

 

[longtooth]

OK my Brother, I am not a lawyer & dont want to be.

You asked for my opinion so here it is after 35yrs in the pastoral ministry, dealing w/ Texas state laws, opinions of people, domestic abuse, family violence to the point of murder twice, & formally teaching handgun safety & personal defense since 2001.

"Woman at church is in the middle of a nasty separation. Her husband moved out but frequently enters the home when she's away at work. As the house is jointly theirs (divorce is not even begun) the cops have told her, basically, unless he physically threatens her she cannot even get a restraining order. She can change the locks, but as it's his house too, he legally can break in -- just like if he locked himself out of the house."

This has not been my experience. Several times I have been the witnessing party designated to be there when he came to get his stuff. Have seen the time when LE was present too. The appointment had to be made. All these times there was a lawyer involved on behalf of the lady.

She needs a lawyer, She Needs A Lawyer, did I forget to say SHE NEEDS A LAWYER.

Saturday, he did one of his sudden appearances. Scared the woman badly. According to her, he made a rather veiled threat by referencing the Garth Brooks song with the line, "Momma's in the grave yard and Poppa's in the pen."

Veiled threats are the tactics of verbal & physical abusers. W/O a documented string of them with some evidence of physical abuse mixed in I don't think she would have grounds for deadly force if all he is doing is quoting songs & keeping it in an abstract 3rd person context & never directly applying it to her. If he is unarmed & has not hurt her I think she would be in big trouble if she threatened him w/ deadly force by pointing a gun at him. I am not a lawyer remember. Opinion.

Did I mention shen needs a lawyer. I remember the $$$$$$ problem but that does not change the need.

"For a moment, and just a moment, I thought of loaning her a pistol for self-defense. As fast as the thought entered my mind, I stopped it -- that's all sorts of trouble waiting, and none of it will be good for me. I also fleetingly thought about selling her a handgun. Nope...not any better. In the two seconds these thoughts flittered through my brain, she said something about she wouldn't evne know how to use it if she had it."

Don't loan her a gun. Don't loan her a gun.
You may never get in legal trouble for it but I can see much "appearance" trouble.
You might get in a whole heap O trouble w/ the law & still be in more "appearance trouble" than your ministry can stand.
If you sell her a gun it would need to be somewhere around the fair market value of the gun. Not a $5.00 sale.

I've taught several women to shoot. Three have gone on to get their Texas CHLs. One just wanted to learn what to do "just in case." None were perceiving any personal threat.

"I am not a trained instructor. I am a gun enthusiast who enjoys helping others learn a little bit about shooting, gun safety, and how they work. Would I be out of my mind, knowing what I know about her situation, to offer to take her to the range and give her some basic shooting lessons? She would use my guns at the range only, and none would leave my possession. What she does with that experience is up to her: purchase a handgun, take an official, professionally-taught class, or walk away from guns completely."

As an Instructor I have had several folks that I have chosen not to give private fire arms instruction too until they had accepted attitude instruction first. 2 women I remember about like above. The theme of their attitude, fear, or what ever you want to call it was something like, "I want to learn to use a gun because I am not taking any more off him." I just thought I could see too much liability & "appearance" of possible relationship there. Told them come to a class & pay the fee w/ the other ladies.

Couple of men that had the attitude that it wont happen to us & you are just paranoid. House broke in to & burglarized. Same as the above basic statement. "They ain't messin' w/ me again." Told them the same thing "Pick a class but no private lessons." Right or wrong that is what I did.

"Is this opening myself up for all sorts of liability? Is my pastoral desire to help this woman protect herself and her kids clouding my better judgement?"

Yep I believe so.

The only advice I gave her yesterday is that, in Texas, she can legally carry a loaded firearm in her home and in her car without a license and that if she is gravely fearful for her life (repeated those four words several times) she is justified in lethal use of the gun. I also carefully said "I am not a lawyer.

It is good that you repeated the perception of threat. BUT, just being afraid is not enough. She has got to be able to articulate it in such a manner that a "reasonable & prudent individual" would agree w/ that fear. The veiled threat of "Mamma in the GY & daddy in the pen" & she is trembling fearful scared that he is going to kill her & chop her up for burial in the back yard will not convince a reasonable & prudent individual she needed deadly force to protect herself. This is the reason I refused private lessons for the above people.

AGAIN: I am not a lawyer. These are my thoughts, opinions, & perceptions w/ my experiences as Instructor & 35 yrs in the ministry. I know I have only been able to read in black & white & have not met or talked to her.