Woman at church

[wyocarp]

There is nothing wrong with loaning someone a gun. And nothing illegal about it, as long as you don't know that they can't legally own one.

If you have the means, what about purchasing her a taser?

My experience, churches and ex's are a bad combination. If he is brazen enough to sing her those songs, then he is a threat that needs to be taken somewhat seriously. It isn't your responsibility in some people's minds, but I think people should help others more. You don't need to be her bodyguard, but maybe she needs someone to open her eyes to what she needs to be doing legally and for protection. It would probably be wise to help her with someone else present.

I would also be aware of the surroundings and happenings when he shows up at church.

Oh, and I would be carrying.

 

[esquare]

Quoheleth - that's a tough position, but IMO if you think she's in real danger of harm by staying there, then try to get her out - like tonight. Go over there with your wife or someone else, have her put together a few items for 3-4 days, and invite her to stay at your place for a few days to give her time to think about how she needs to handle this.

Is there anyone in your congregation that might we willing to do this for you, or be able to have her stay a little longer?

This just gives her time to figure out what she needs to do - she could probably use a few cooked meals, some company and the ability to rest well at night.

As far as firearms, I would suggest that you donate some money to her that she could use to go to a range, get some training and buy whatever works for her - if she's inclined to wanting one - but this isn't needed until she's living by herself again.

A final thought - don't let her stay alone at her house until the matter is settled and she can do whatever reinforcements to the house as needed (locks changed/added, security system, etc). Chances are, she's not going to want to stay there anyway.

Just my 0.02

 

[shootistpd27]

You have educated her in the legality of firearms ownership, possession and use. Direct her to the nearest Highpoint dealer and tell her what to buy. She can buy a fully functional Highpoint 9mm for around $125. I know they look like a Glock with down syndrome but she will have protection and I would run from a highpoint just as fast as I would a Glock. Most of the time when a domestic buddy accosts their victims it is either at the home or in the car. I am sure that you can carry a firearm in either without a permit depending where you live. If you want, there would be nothing wrong with taking her shooting. Just have a witness with you just in case she wants to use you to make her ex jelous. Be careful how close you get to here because her ex may be looking to get you when you go into the church where you cant have a firearm. (Mine is always unseen, but readily available.)

 

[benEzra]

If she's not comfortable with guns yet, getting her one of these would be considerably better than nothing:

http://www.officerstore.com/store/p...t_guardian_angel_stops_threats_at_a_distance/

 

[shootistpd27]

Its hard for me to argue that pepper spray is better than nothing but I wouldnt recommend it to anyone. The only time that pepper spray works is when the pain caused by the spray takes precedent over the inspiration of the crook to meet his goal. I have used pepper spray only a few times over my LE career and only once did it do its job and that was just to calm a subject who was playing crazy to get out of jail. I sprayed a guy in the face that was running from me and all he did was do a (march to the rear) and come at me with full force screaming that he was going to kill me expletive deleted. The only reason I won that fight without shooting was the use of my flashlight on his cranial vault. It has been my experience that pepper spray does a good job of just pissing the guy off even worse and when you do use it, it comes right back in your face and you have to deal with that. Plus you have to get close for it to be usefull. Just my 2 pennies. You can get a cheap Raven 25 for less than $100, that would be better than nothing.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

You can stick you head in the sand and point to the liability......Or do the right thing.

Dont be dumb about it, but definately help. Yes there is a certain part she needs to do. Perhaps the easiest is to get her out and living somewhere where he has no legal right to be, even if its just temporary, until the legal stuff catches up. Even then, him not knowing where to find her for a while is likely a good thing.

She needs to do that much. Then, where ever she stays needs to know the potential situation / problem so that they dont become victims either.

If she has family out of town, that may be best.....or friends across town, etc.

 

[Blackbeard]

Call me crazy, but if he won't leave her alone in the house, then the best option is for her to move out of the house. How many times have we read on this board that we'd never go to a place where we expect to need a weapon. Well, that place is her house. So don't go there. Stay with friends/relatives until the thing is settled. Better to solve it in court than one or both end up dead.

 

[shootistpd27]

If there has ever been any kind of consistency about 2nd amendment advocates it has been this, "You cant run any farther than your home". If you get run off from your own home, where are you safe. The police department will have you committed if you try to live there without a sentence.

 

[Mags]

According to her, he made a rather veiled threat by referencing the Garth Brooks song with the line, "Momma's in the grave yard and Poppa's in the pen."

Unless the guy is a truck driver I don't think she should worry too much about that quote. Sorry, I know its a serious subject but I had to say it.

 

[garymc]

Did somebody say she should consult an attorney? You can get internet opinions all day about how it is in one state or the other or what somebody else did or was rumored to have done. Speculation can run rife about how or whether to kill him. What if she's planning that and trying to get help with it? Where has all of the OP's information come from? Her? I know, statistically, it is the woman who is the victim, but anything could be going on here. It seems to me that the attorney route can get the legal status of his residence there changed and that might move things in the right direction (or bring things to a head.)

 

[JohnKSa]

...the cops have told her...

If someone were breaking into your house would you call a divorce lawyer to come arrest the criminal?

Then why would you allow a friend to take legal advice about her divorce from the police?

No offense to police (or attorneys) is intended, I'm just pointing out that they have very different training and do very different jobs.

If you really want to help her, tell her to get a lawyer--better yet, help her get a lawyer.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

A friend advised her to get a handgun and a CCL. She doesn't have the money for either.

If the lady does not have $ for a handgun or CCL, then she isn't going to have money for a lawyer. She is going to need a pro-bono lawyer and that likely will be tough to find. I think that is where John's

better yet, help her get a lawyer.

comes into play.

 

[Quoheleth]

Thanks, all for the comments thus far.

I don't mean to air her dirty laundry, but I'm finding out that this lady is teetering on the brink:
- Hubby is a jerk and a half
- He moved out and left her with the house note and associated bills
- She works full-time, but at min. wage
- House is on verge of forclosure
- Her car died yesterday. I've committed to helping her get that fixed so she can get to/from work and hopefully hang in there another week or two.

Re:

If you really want to help her... help her get a lawyer.

Finding a pro bono lawyer of decent quality is like getting the winning lottery ticket. I don't have a lawyer in my church, and neither the church nor I have the resources to hire a lawyer.

Q

 

[TexasRifleman]

Not a lawyer but I cannot imagine a situation where simply teaching someone how to shoot a gun would open you up to any potential liabilities.

I would be interested in seeing a cite of a case anywhere in the US where this has happened in the past.

Personally, not being a lawyer, etc, I would probably teach her how to shoot and advise her on how to purchase a gun.

I really want to see a connection between a firearm instructor and liability for a shooting.

Do they sue driving instructors when a drunk driver kills someone?

All that said, she needs a lawyer and restraining orders immediately to start a paper trail. Keep in mind that in Texas there is no such thing as "separation" so if he's moved out he can indeed come and go as he pleases, even break the door down if he wants. Until a divorce petition is filed there is no change in their marital status in Texas.

She could even do a "do it yourself" divorce filing and ask for a TRO at that time. There are plenty of online law places that sell Texas divorce kits. But she does need to get something in writing and in the system.

 

[Quoheleth]

Do they sue driving instructors when a drunk driver kills someone?

No: they sue the car, tire, or [other] manufacturer. Shooting cases, they sue the gun manufacturer and the store who sold the gun.

The reality is in the USofA, you can sue dang near anyone for dang near any reason you want. The court MAY toss it out for frivolity; or you just might be Case Study #1.

Q

 

[TexasRifleman]

I understand the "you can sue anyone for anything" but I still want to see a cite where anyone put themselves in a bad spot for simply teaching someone how to shoot.

I don't remember ever seeing anything like that. It could certainly happen but that would be very low on my worry list.

The main thing is to get the paperwork started. I just googled and there are tons of online Texas divorce sites, charging from 50 to 200 dollars for a do it yourself filing. That gets a paper trail and a restraining order going. I personally think that should be #1.

If she won't file for divorce then I would take the hands off approach.

 

[DeepSouth]

Be a servant

If she has a need and you have the ability to fill that need, then do.
Remember that sometimes doing what is right brings on various types of trouble.

 

[benEzra]

I'd help her in any way I could. I take it you are a Christian; the Bible says a great deal about helping those who are afflicted, oppressed, and without help. It is a moral imperative, IMO.

 

[MisterMike]

I can't give you legal advice, nor would I presume to be conversant in Texas law. However, I've dealt with domestic violence situations in my career, and I have a few thoughts.

First, while I think all of us here are vigorous supporters of the right of self-defense, arming her would be a ways down my list of the most expedient responses. A first priority should be getting her out of harm's way. I'd suggest reporting the incident(s) to the police. In many jurisdictions, filing a report of actual or threatened violence will trigger an appearance before a judge who can enter an order of protection. That's a reasonable step, but we all know that a committed killer doesn't care much about the niceties of court orders.

Therefore, I would suggest finding a way--any way--to at least temporarily get her out of the home. There are women's shelters and domestic violence advocacy groups who can steer her through the process and get her to a safer place. Anytime an individual, like this woman's husband, clearly communicates a willingness, or at least a desire, to kill, you have to take it seriously.

One thing to bear in mind as you navigate your way through this is that the woman may be lying to you. You need to exercise a great deal of caution in supplying her with the means to use a gun.

Truthfully, this is messy territory and it sounds to me like you haven't had much experience in this area. Get someone involved who has the experience and expertise to deal with this. A good start would be the National Domestic Violence Hotline (800.799.7233). You can find more info at http://www.ndvh.org/

 

[jimmyraythomason]

One of the problems with battered women is that people often don't believe them or think their situation isn't "all that bad". I have seen a lot of this and even though I don't know this woman I believe she is in danger. My wife's ex-husband pulled a knife on her, broke into her house (just to show her he could) threatened to harm her relatives, threatened to sue her pastor for helping her and threatened to come to her church and tell everyone what an awful person she was. He had no driver's license but he drove anyway. He is no longer a problem (he's dead, don't ask).

Point is these types ignore the law, in my daughter's case her ex is a cop and thinks he is above the law. Moving her to a safe house of some sort is by far the first step no matter what else is done.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

She may not be ready to do harm to him to protect herself but there are children involved and that changes things quite a bit. I once saw my wife take on a bull dog with only her high-heeled shoe that was threatening her children (until I could get there with a broomhandle). Do not underestimate the maternal instinct.

 

[powergunner]

I think that teaching a person to use a gun, make you as liable of it as a chemistry teacher that teaches people how a nuclear bomb works... it doesn’t mean the student will become a scientist and blow up the world...
In my opinion, women who have a history with a person (husband, boyfriends...) will not use the firearm on the person and she might be in much more danger. This person might grab the gun of her hands. Pepper sprays are also useless. In a moment of panic she might spray in the wrong direction or even accidentally spray herself.
A good solution in her case might be a Shoker or Taser gun. If she will face him at such close distance, it means that she does need to use it. She won’t miss and it will give her enough time to escape the situation.

Hope everything works out for the best!

 

[benEzra]

In a moment of panic she might spray in the wrong direction or even accidentally spray herself.

That's one reason I suggest the Kimber/Guardian Angel unit instead of a spray, with the added benefit of being able to use it indoors without incapacitating oneself.

I believe the best advice in the thread so far is MisterMike's post:

First, while I think all of us here are vigorous supporters of the right of self-defense, arming her would be a ways down my list of the most expedient responses. A first priority should be getting her out of harm's way.

...

Truthfully, this is messy territory and it sounds to me like you haven't had much experience in this area. Get someone involved who has the experience and expertise to deal with this. A good start would be the National Domestic Violence Hotline (800.799.7233). You can find more info at http://www.ndvh.org/

My wife helped get an abused woman out of her home and into a shelter many years ago. The woman's situation turned out OK; it might not have had she stayed around for further abuse.

 

[jfdavis58]

This such a no-brainer it hardly deserves a reply.

Get the lady and the few belongings she can rightfully claim as her own and move her to a safe undisclosed location. No gun, no spray no paperwork--just help her disappear. As long as she is not actually fleeing a criminal act there is no crime to dropping off the radar for what ever time it takes to get squared away.

The foreclosed house will haunt her credit for years but she should be on a cash only basis for the foreseeable future anyway. Fixing a clunker car is another disaster, sell it for parts or scrap and teach her about public transportation, car pooling, riding a bike or just plain walking.

Stability, safety and reality is what she needs, not more pie-in-the-sky hopes and dreams based on the old collapsed lifestyle she's failed to create or achieve.

There is no shame in starting over and doing things right.

 

[kmullins]

She may not be ready to do harm to him to protect herself but there are children involved and that changes things quite a bit. I once saw my wife take on a bull dog with only her high-heeled shoe that was threatening her children (until I could get there with a broomhandle). Do not underestimate the maternal instinct.

Well I disagree. The "maternal instinct" may be very prevalent or what have you in such a situation, but unless someone is absolutely willing to take a human life on a moments notice, they should not be equipped with deadly force.