jimmyraythomason
Member
You and I will have to disagree kmullins. Most women will face the devil himself to save her children as will most men. You become willing very fast when your children are at stake.
Woman at church
- Thread starter Quoheleth
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moi_self26
Member
"If she's honestly, truly in fear for her life she wouldn't keep going back home. People don't voluntarily go to the slaughterhouse. If she's scared of this guy then she needs to get a divorce and make it quick. Shooting the guy dead isn't her primary concern, getting away is."
You make it sound so easy... and if only it were. One of the strongest women I know and respect a great deal, was in an abusive marriage.... it took her 10 years to get out. And when her husband beat her and she called the police they would just come, mock and belittle her, then leave. I would love to sit here and say what I would do if I were her and how easy it would be, but unless you have been in her shoes you can't say that. You have NO IDEA what she is going through, what obstacles she has, or what resources she has to help her.
To the op, I think it's awesome that you want to help her.... there should be more people in the world like you. Only you can decide how far you want to go to help her, but I would concentrate on helping her get a protective order or getting her a new place until the proceedings are final.... but I don't see any harm in taking her to the range or encouraging her to take a safety/shooting class. I think everyone should know how to properly use a gun. Your lady friend is in my prayers.
You make it sound so easy... and if only it were. One of the strongest women I know and respect a great deal, was in an abusive marriage.... it took her 10 years to get out. And when her husband beat her and she called the police they would just come, mock and belittle her, then leave. I would love to sit here and say what I would do if I were her and how easy it would be, but unless you have been in her shoes you can't say that. You have NO IDEA what she is going through, what obstacles she has, or what resources she has to help her.
To the op, I think it's awesome that you want to help her.... there should be more people in the world like you. Only you can decide how far you want to go to help her, but I would concentrate on helping her get a protective order or getting her a new place until the proceedings are final.... but I don't see any harm in taking her to the range or encouraging her to take a safety/shooting class. I think everyone should know how to properly use a gun. Your lady friend is in my prayers.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Actually, it is tough, but very good law firms do a certain percentage of pro-bono cases every year with some very good lawyers. That is where you can help since you are in fear of liability issues. Use your pastoral position to solicit help. It won't cost you or the church much beyond the time to make phone calls.
You're her pastor. You should be talking to her about safety & security and getting her kids someplace safe vs. contemplating whether she needs a gun. She's not you, me, nor any of the other well-versed gun people here on the internet. Could she use a gun? Would it make the situation worse? Would she cross the line and end up in prison?
The reality is that you don't know what's going on in her life - whether she's lying to you or not. If it were me, I'd take steps to get her safe and then connect her with agencies that can help with divorce, etc.
The reality is that you don't know what's going on in her life - whether she's lying to you or not. If it were me, I'd take steps to get her safe and then connect her with agencies that can help with divorce, etc.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Why would anyone asssume she is lying? That is one on the biggest things that keeps women in abusive situations. My wife said her ex had her believing that she couldn't do any better than him and nobody would believe her anyway. If you've never experienced a domestic situation .....well,you just don't know.
Demitrios
Member
I'm sorry Jimmy but I'm going to have to agree with Maelstrom on this one. What he said may be cold but the truth is the world can be a cold place. If you go out of your way to help her then you're literally going out of your way to put yourself in harm's way. However that doesn't mean you can't be there as support. There's a big difference from putting yourself in harm's way and defending yourself should harm try and come to you. A more clear way to say that would be to be there for her when she needs help, this way you can still be a good samaritan, but don't actively seek out to help her otherwise if something goes wrong you could be held accountable and the law has some very odd perspectives on what "the right thing" is. Let her come to you and keep your door open.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Then you and I will have to disagree as well Demitrios. The old saying "Me and my four and no more" comes to mind. "Saying you will be there for her when she needs help" rings very hollow when you've proven that you won't be.
powergunner
Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2009
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- 24
correct!!!
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
The reality is, unfortunately, that many women DO lie about it. They lie about it for monetary reasons, for sympathy, for spite, all kinds of reasons.
If you've never experienced a vengeful woman in the middle of a nasty divorce.... well, you just don't know.
Don't mean to make light of this, but you can't assume the woman is telling the truth unfortunately. Those women that make up stories do a GREAT amount of damage to women that are really in trouble.
That's why it's very important, and still my recommendation, to get a divorce petition filed first thing. That says yes, there really is intent to divorce and it gets an automatic (just ask for it) temporary restraining order. (Since we don't have legal separation here in Texas)
Until someone takes that first step in the legal system it's very hard to tell what is really going on I'm afraid.
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dieselkanic
Member
Hunting
I think some women in the church need to take her hunting. And then I think she need to take the borrowed shotgun home to clean it right?
I think some women in the church need to take her hunting. And then I think she need to take the borrowed shotgun home to clean it right?
jimmyraythomason
Member
Alabama does not have an "automatic restraining order" at the filling of divorce papers in fact there has to be evidence of violence to get a judge to issue one. And yes I have gone through a divorce and I do know. I have no reason to believe she is lying and if the only reason to suspect her to be lying is because she is a woman..well, that says a lot. I'm afraid none of this is actually doing the OP any good so since I've said my piece(peace?) on it I'll bow out.
I *am* an instructor so for me, in that situation, I would teach her to shoot and, if needed, sell her a gun. I would NEVER loan it out though.
For you, how about asking around and finding a local instructor willing to teach her one-one-one. If you ask around and explain the situation you should be able to find someone who will do it for a greatly reduced rate or possibly even free. At this point it sounds like she doesn't need a full CCW class, just basic instruction so knows enough to know if she evens WANTS a gun and then how to use it if she does acquire one.
You can ask around, find an instructor willing to work with her (he'll have guns for her to try) and then put them in touch with each other. After that, it's up to her to follow through or not.
For you, how about asking around and finding a local instructor willing to teach her one-one-one. If you ask around and explain the situation you should be able to find someone who will do it for a greatly reduced rate or possibly even free. At this point it sounds like she doesn't need a full CCW class, just basic instruction so knows enough to know if she evens WANTS a gun and then how to use it if she does acquire one.
You can ask around, find an instructor willing to work with her (he'll have guns for her to try) and then put them in touch with each other. After that, it's up to her to follow through or not.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
I have seen enough domestic situations to know that flat out believing either side is iffy. I have seen people get mad, voluntarily move out because the situation was difficult as their own decision, then later claim in court that they were thrown out. Whether intentionally or not, I have seen folks twist situations around such that the situation they describe is not the situation as it occurred. Strangely, the story usually favors the story teller.
So sure, the situation may not be fully what has been described, but at no fault of the pastor's.
Right, giving her instruction should not really be a problem. The firearm is another matter.
The woman can't afford a gun. The problem the pastor has brought up is difficult in this regard. The woman is fearful for herself and kids, but can't keep the husband out of the home because legally it is his property as well. She can't afford a gun, training, or a lawyer. The pastor is worried about liability in helping the woman. If he does loan or sell the woman a gun and she uses it illegally, there will be liability issues. He will have knowingly sold or loan a gun to a woman for the purpose of a violent confrontation. The question will be if there is any way that the pastor could have known that the woman would wrongly use the gun. Ideally, it will all get sorted out and the pastor will come away clean, but the issue may cause problems for him temporarily if he provides the gun.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Well the OP is in Texas, and the woman needs to simply file for divorce and ask for a TRO and she will get it. It's pretty straightforward and until she does that there is little that can be done to help her. These TRO's exist mainly to stop people from taking property from the residence, but they usually include barring harassment as well. Most courts in Texas do all this as standard procedure in divorces. Dallas courts for example have "standing orders" that they apply to all divorce filings, including TRO's, not moving kids around, locking down property and funds, etc.
No one is saying she is lying, we're saying it happens often enough to tread lightly. If she won't file for divorce to start the legal proceedings then it makes it difficult for the OP to figure out what's really going on.
OP
OP
Quoheleth
Member
Bingo!
This is it in a nutshell:
So no one thinks I have abandoned the thread, my plan at this point is this: visit with her in the next day or two and pointedly ask, "What would you like me to do to help?" This way, instead of me pushing my ideas on her (which, by the way, makes me liable for giving her advice/counsel outside of a theological realm; courts have held pastors accountable in cases like that), I can support what she decides. Part of it is to take the onus off of me; part of it is to allow her to make some decisions, "empowering" her a bit in this process where she feels powerless. If she wants to learn how to shoot, I'll figure something out - if I have to, I'll take her with a witness so the conversation can be observed that I wasn't teaching her "deadly tactics". I've provided several Houston area numbers for her to call for pro bono lawyers. If she wants to look into a shelter situation, I'll help with that, too.
I am the first to admit that part of my job is to trust people and take them at their word. Knowing the hubby and having seen some of his antics (she called me to be in the house when she confronted him with wanting a divorce, planning on having him move out; he became verbally abusive, screaming and yelling all sorts of obsenities at the woman, and forced HER to move out. Definitely a low point in my ministry.) I have no doubt in what she is telling me. Is some of it her perceived truth? Possibly. But the main vein of the story, I have no doubt is accurate.
So, to all who have replied - and especially those who have told their very personal stories in this - I sincerely thank you.
Q
This is it in a nutshell:
So no one thinks I have abandoned the thread, my plan at this point is this: visit with her in the next day or two and pointedly ask, "What would you like me to do to help?" This way, instead of me pushing my ideas on her (which, by the way, makes me liable for giving her advice/counsel outside of a theological realm; courts have held pastors accountable in cases like that), I can support what she decides. Part of it is to take the onus off of me; part of it is to allow her to make some decisions, "empowering" her a bit in this process where she feels powerless. If she wants to learn how to shoot, I'll figure something out - if I have to, I'll take her with a witness so the conversation can be observed that I wasn't teaching her "deadly tactics". I've provided several Houston area numbers for her to call for pro bono lawyers. If she wants to look into a shelter situation, I'll help with that, too.
I am the first to admit that part of my job is to trust people and take them at their word. Knowing the hubby and having seen some of his antics (she called me to be in the house when she confronted him with wanting a divorce, planning on having him move out; he became verbally abusive, screaming and yelling all sorts of obsenities at the woman, and forced HER to move out. Definitely a low point in my ministry.) I have no doubt in what she is telling me. Is some of it her perceived truth? Possibly. But the main vein of the story, I have no doubt is accurate.
So, to all who have replied - and especially those who have told their very personal stories in this - I sincerely thank you.
Q
I think that's the best Q.
You can also in the mean time set her up with some non-lethal means of protection - a taser, pepper spray etc.
But a lawyer will help identify the boundaries of this situation and not only steer her in the direction she needs to go, but keep you out of trouble as well.
You can also in the mean time set her up with some non-lethal means of protection - a taser, pepper spray etc.
But a lawyer will help identify the boundaries of this situation and not only steer her in the direction she needs to go, but keep you out of trouble as well.
Demitrios
Member
Jimmy, that's what I'm saying though, be there but don't GO there.
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