Woman Harassed for Open Carry

[jahwarrior]

long story short, a woman in PA went to her kid's soccer game open carrying, some people freaked out, and before you know it, she had her LTCF revoked, without due process, for violating the "character" clause. more details here: http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed-open-carry-121/32796-ltcf-revoked.html

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/conceale...rsnothing-s-revocation-legal-info-thread.html

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/16397.html

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/16426.html

*fixed

 

[KiltedClaymore]

BOOO!!!! tell her to move out here!

 

[damien]

Please fix your links, the first two are broken.

This is great news, don't get too irritated about this. This sheriff is heading for a world of hurt.

 

[Lookn4Brass]

Wow. Talk about hot stuff! Bring on da stink! I hope there are so many people that call, e-mail, or show up to a court date on this case that the sheriff resigns or moves out of town. What a "dunder head" (Beverly Hillbillies derogatory phrase) law enforcement move. That's awesome!

OK, so here's my 2c worth. Please don't smack me in the head or hate me for it.

I wouldn't be an open carry "starter" person myself. I don't condemn the person for wanting to open carry, but think that concealed would be infinitely smarter. Unless alot of mindset changes on the subject, open carry will not be good for gun owners in this day and age, IMHO. We aren't going to convert the whole world to our view. Hopefully we can convert some and keep the rest of them off our butt, and live in peace most of the time.

I spent enough time employed in various parts of the gun industry to observe people's reactions that I would have already known how much poop this would cause. There's no way in hell that I would open carry at a soccer game, if for no other reason than just the selfish one: I would get sick of the comments and attention. It would drive my family nuts and embarrass them immensely. Let's be real folks. Do you want to be a target, even if the law says you can be? Hey, if condoms aren't illegal in school, do you still feel like you need to stick one on the outside of your pants to show your support?
Maybe that's a bit harsh. I don't mean it to be. Just thought that grown-ups could make better choices.

Ok, so win the court case and smoke the Barney Fife already ! I'm still on your side. Peace.

Lookn4Brass

 

[scrat]

Wow the sheriff sure is in a world of hurt.

 

[Lookn4Brass]

Tim McGraw should write a song about the sheriff that pissed off the wrong Momma. It would be funny. Or maybe Mel Tillis or Brad Paisley could do it justice. Ol' sheriffy-poo is gonna be famous. Whether he wants to be or not! If any of you know any of these artists, send them an e-mail!

Lookn4Brass

 

[FieroCDSP]

I'm interested in what the legal definition of "would be likely to act in a dangerous manner to public safety" is.
If OC is legal, and the gun never left the holster, then this woman has a case. The Ohio SC has found that OC rights are entirely independent of Conceal Carry rights. I'm not sure if PA has had a similar case, but it'd be worth fighting for.
If she wasn't asked to leave by the league officials or cops, then it's pretty safe to say she wasn't a public nuisiance, or inducing a panic, or even disrupting the game.

I'm interested in how this turns out.

 

[JDoe]

The Ohio SC has found that OC rights are entirely independent of Conceal Carry rights. I'm not sure if PA has had a similar case, but it'd be worth fighting for.

Post #208 has some info that looks useful.

The Pennsylvania Constitution does not forbid our carrying firearms openly, and that right is affirmed in case law.
The two cases that that specifically affirms that a person may carry a firearm openly: Commonwealth v. Ortiz and Commonwealth v. Hawkins.

Commonwealth v. Hawkins, 692 A.2d 1068, n.4 (“In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license. See
Ortiz v. Commonwealth, 545 Pa. 279, 283, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) (only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license)”).

Ortiz v. Commonwealth, 545 Pa. 279; 681 A.2d 152 (1996)(agreeing with appellant’s citation of the fact that "...in Philadelphia County, the legislature requires that a person must be licensed to carry weapons openly and not concealed from sight, whereas in all other counties of Pennsylvania, weapons may be carried openly without a license[, but holding that appellant’s argument that this fact then exempts Philadelphia from state preemption statute] is plainly without merit” [emphasis added]”).

Pennsylvania like the rest of United States Codes, Laws, or Rules, defines what we can not do. If an activity prohibition is not specifically codified it is not illegal

 

[Kind of Blued]

I hope big daddy justice opens up a can of the good stuff.

 

[Aran]

What didn't make it to the final thread was how she confronted at least one or two parents over the issue before she got the letter from the league.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

And how was that?

 

[Armueller2001]

What didn't make it to the final thread was how she confronted at least one or two parents over the issue before she got the letter from the league.

Is that pertinent?

I probably wouldn't ask a black family not to show up to the games because the sight of them scares my children...

 

[TAB]

I have the feeling there is more too this story...

 

[Aran]

Is that pertinent?

I probably wouldn't ask a black family not to show up to the games because the sight of them scares my children...

Yes.


But would you ask them not to attend the games if the mother comes up to you, gets in your face about her being black, and pushes the issue, etc.?

 

[Armueller2001]

But would you ask them not to attend the games if the mother comes up to you, gets in your face about her being black, and pushes the issue, etc.?

I sure would ask them not to attend. But the female in question wasn't doing that... she was following the law, minding her own business. I wouldn't ask someone wearing an Obama shirt (legal, may offend people IF THEY CHOOSE TO TAKE OFFENSE) to leave either.

 

[TAB]

I sure would ask them not to attend. But the female in question wasn't doing that... she was following the law, minding her own business.

and you know this how? Were you there? THere are atleast 3 sides to every story, side A, side B... and what really happend. We only have side A.

Ever been to a kids sporting event? I am a CIF ref and I donate my time to USA wrestling. I can tell you that the mothers are ALWAYS the worst. Todate I have never had to kick out a Father from a tourny, but I have about a dozen or so mothers. Some of the things that come out of thier mouths, lets just say... it does not need to be said infront of other kids. I have seen Mothers assult other CIF refs.

For all we know, she could have been shouting 4 letter words/ threats, while fondling her gun. Then again, she could have droped it, or had her child hold it. I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that doing something like that would be a danger to those around her...

 

[BruceRDucer]

/
It might seem a vague question, but how often are there incidences like this, which indicate that the presiding law enforcement officer is unaware of the distinction between LAW and some vaguely concieved...."public concern" or whatever, expressed as a complaint by some whiny citizen?

 

[Harvster]

The funny thing is the revocation of her LTCF just means that she has to open carry, which is perfectly legal in PA with no permit of any kind. Wonder what the LEOs in charge of this fiasco will do at the next game when she simply open carries again. There is already case law that open carry itself can not be a public disturbance or any other such ilk.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

wasn't she already oc? thats what got the circus started

 

[everallm]

OK, I wan't there.......soccer phah, would never have happened at a rugby game, lots more blood, far less whining.......

Having read through the links from start to end, it appears that this kicked off when an small but indeterminate number of parents complained of feeling "concerned" to the director of the soccer club, NOT called the police which might have been what you expected.

The lady concerned had a licence to carry concealed but was open carrying as explicitly permitted by PA statute and case law.

The director, an ex-judge, recently voted out, made the complaint to the local PD who used this as a reason to pull her CONCEALED carry licence. This means she now has to always OC which reduces "concern" how ?????

Unless the lady concerned was in fact acting in a threatening or inappropriate manner with the firearm then the local PD is going to be in a whole world of hurt.

Now, whether it was sensible to OC at a soccer game.........that's a different question.

 

[Bubbles]

Soccer Mom = Dangerous?

Just insane...

On September 11, 2008 you were observed at Optimist Park in Lebanon. At that particular time ou were carrying a weapon openly in a belt holster. Unfortunately, some of the individuals at the Optimist Park were upset. Consequently, you are required to surrender your license, as indicated in the following paragraphs.

According to the Uniform Firearms Act, Subsection 6109 of the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act, you are required to surrender your license to the issuing authority.

You are required to surrender the license to the Lebanon County Sheriffs Office within five days of receipt of this letter or be guilty of a summary violation.

Section 6109, (e)(1)(i) reveals that "an individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a dangerous manner to public safety," shall not be licensed.

I hope that town has good insurance to pay for the resulting lawsuit.

 

[Deanimator]

I don't condemn the person for wanting to open carry, but think that concealed would be infinitely smarter.

She was badgered not to carry AT ALL.

 

[Aran]

I sure would ask them not to attend. But the female in question wasn't doing that... she was following the law, minding her own business. I wouldn't ask someone wearing an Obama shirt (legal, may offend people IF THEY CHOOSE TO TAKE OFFENSE) to leave either.

The original original thread got nuked for her protection just in case things escalated. I don't have it all saved, so I won't go more in depth than to say she didn't handle any part of it very well, by my estimation. I can't quote it, obviously, but she definitely aggravated the situation unnecessarily, trying to pull others into it.

 

[Deanimator]

But would you ask them not to attend the games if the mother comes up to you, gets in your face about her being black, and pushes the issue, etc.?

But of course that's NOT what happened. It's more like she refused to sit in the "colored" section of the bleachers.

In actuality, this incident is more like a religious Jew being told not to wear a kippa because it upsets the Holocaust deniers in the group.

As far as all of the fanciful things she COULD have done to have her LTCF pulled, NONE of them were mentioned in either the complaint to the Sheriff OR in the Sheriff's revocation letter. If ANY of those things happened, NOBODY thought it important enough to mention. There's no more evidence that she gave her firearm to a child to hold than there is that you brought down WTC 7 in a "controlled demolition".

 

[Deanimator]

The original original thread got nuked for her protection just in case things escalated. I don't have it all saved, so I won't go more in depth than to say she didn't handle any part of it very well, by my estimation. I can't quote it, obviously, but she definitely aggravated the situation unnecessarily, trying to pull others into it.

I believe that the Sheriff is 80 years old and not the most dynamic character on earth. He tried (by his own admission) to please everyone and pleased no one.

What this REALLY is is a bunch of malicious busybodies taking advantage of an elderly man without a good grasp of PA state law in order to vindictively get revenge on somebody whom they couldn't bully directly. I'm thinking a defamation suit would tune those curs right up.