Worry about mag springs?

[jmorris]

The oldest mag spring test I have running would be the one in this pistol.



It’s remained fully loaded since before I was born. Still works.

I also have a number of Vietnam surplus Cold AR mags, that still work with original springs.

That said, I have others that I have had to change with much less use, to keep them reliable.

One thing for sure is that all springs are not created equal.

 

[SSN Vet]

The oldest mag spring test I have running would be the one in this pistol.... It’s remained fully loaded since before I was born. Still works.

Does your 1903 have 8 or 7 round mags? I've read that they originally came with 8s, but later they switched to 7s.

Perhaps JMB was debating this same topic 120 years ago.

I also find it interesting that the BHP was designed and issued with 13 round mags, and to my knowledge, FN never sold them with anything other than 13 rounders.... despite changing the follower design twice. It wasn't until years later MecGar decided to trim the legs off of the followers and tweak the spring so they could squeeze in two more. The only BHP mag I've ever had miss-feed (have 13s, 15s and 17s), was a 15 rounder... as the follower can tip when feeding the last two rounds. Perhaps JMB and his protégé Saive knew best.

 

[jmorris]

8 rounds of 32 ACP in the magazine.

 

[The Night Rider]

I'm not talking about opinions, and unlike many others, I don't just make $#it up. It's what he was taught, and what he was told to teach other marines on the range.

The corp has always had their own way of doing things. Perhaps there are other jar heads (term used with affection and respect) that could chime in.

I have no personal military experience with the M4/16, as we still trained with and inventoried the M14 in our small arms locker shipboard during my tenure. So I was happy to host my coworker at the range a couple times to learn a bit of the USMC M16 manual of arms.

OK.

TM 105-249-10- Rifle 5.56 mm is same for the Army and the Marines. It says nothing about downloading magazines.

I don't care who taught what, if it's not in that book it is that person's opinion as far as the Army /Marines are concerned.

And if it contradicts that book it's wrong as far as the Army /Marines are concerned.

 

[mcb]

OK.

TM 105-249-10- Rifle 5.56 mm is same for the Army and the Marines. It says nothing about downloading magazines.

I don't care who taught what, if it's not in that book it is that person's opinion as far as the Army /Marines are concerned.

And if it contradicts that book it's wrong as far as the Army /Marines are concerned.

Sorry but I am currently reading Gregory "Pappy" Boyington autobiography, Baa Baa Black Sheep, and your post above sound just like something Colonel Lard would have said. Col Lard was Boyington nemesis Colonel Lard was a paper pushing marine bureaucrat that never saw front line service but often used very strict interpretation of regulation as a bludgeon to attack other solders he did not like.

I have never served but given the industry I work in I have worked with a fair number of people that did serve. My one buddy that was a MARSOC Marine serving in both Iraq and Afghanistan said that it was standard operation for his unit to download their magazines. Not to save magazine springs but to ensure they got positive locking in of a magazine when insert on a closed bolt. A lot of those little things they did were not in the regulation but learned the hard way and became that wisdom that is passed through the unit as new solders join the unit.

 

[zdc1775]

My source of information on this is a co-worker who is in the USMC active reserves and is a qualified marksmanship coach. He knows his way around the platform very well.

It's what he was taught, and what he was told to teach other marines on the range.

I'd like to know who, when, and where he was taught that, because every training class I went thought we were always taught that a 30 round magazine meant that you loaded 30 rounds into the magazine, normally by using three 10 round stripper clips, and we most certainly never downloaded magazines when we were deployed overseas.

The corps has always had their own way of doing things. Perhaps there are other jar heads (term used with affection and respect) that could chime in.

I have no personal military experience with the M4/16, as we still trained with and inventoried the M14 in our small arms locker shipboard during my tenure. So I was happy to host my coworker at the range a couple times to learn a bit of the USMC M16 manual of arms.

We certainly do have a peculiar way of doing many things but downloading mags isn't one of them.

And to clarify I was a CMT, combat marksmanship trainer, who completed the course at Quantico in June of 2009, my lead instructor was GySgt Champainer.

 

[bubbatime]

In reference to downloading… I believe all of the services now use Magpul magazines, except for maybe big army still using that enhanced GI metal magazine.

loading 30 into a metal mag can make it very difficult to load a mag on a closed bolt. Like very difficult in some rifles due to tolerance stacking. Loading 28 or 29 on a metal mag is not really a bad practice.

Magpul mags- they are longer and have more room inside. They were properly designed from the outset, to have enough extra room inside. You can easily load a full 30 rounds and they easily lock into rifles with a closed bolt. They are of a better design than GI mags and do not need downloaded and should not be down loaded.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

People don't seem to worry about cycling the springs, they're worried about storing them.
Which is exactly the opposite it should be.
Good modern magazines are designed with the springs' limits in mind. Barring crappy manufacturing, if a magazine is designed for 10 rounds, 12, 15, 20, 30, whatever, it's fine to load and store that many in it.
The only reason springs are going to take a 'set' is from heat (unlikely) and oxidation affecting them, and there's a considerable tolerance there. Don't abuse them and you're fine.

People should be more worried about the lip, and that's not at all an issue with steel magazines. Even good polymer ones will be fine for years.

BINGO!

It's tiring to hear people go on about this. Especially "down-loading" magazines by one or two rounds.

If it's designed to be a 30 round magazine, then you can load, store, and use that magazine to its full 30 round capacity.

If there ARE problems with that magazine (or the firearm it's used in) when it's loaded to full capacity, then either the magazine is defective, the gun is defective, or both.

The 100% correct answer is to fix the problem...NOT treating a stop-gap measure like down-loading the magazine as a permanent fix or a recommended way of life in general.

And I also don't know what the issue with spring wear is really all about outside this, either. ANYTHING with moving parts WILL eventually wear out under use, and magazines are no exception to this rule. The question is "when"...and if that "when" is "pretty frickin' long", then don't worry about it. Use it and if problems DO arise years down the road...replace the spring.

Springs are cheap. Even the name-brand springs. Heck, Wolf 1911 magazine springs run about $7.50 each. Buy a pack of 10 for $48 and that brings it down to less than $5/spring. Anybody who owns a gun and shells out fat double-digit clams for 50 round boxes of ammunition should not even BLINK at the cost of a magazine spring replacement once in a blue moon.

 

[The Night Rider]

Sorry but I never served a day in my life but I'm about tell you how the Military works

^FIXED IT FOR YOU ^

Sorry but I am currently reading Gregory "Pappy" Boyington autobiography, Baa Baa Black Sheep, and your post above sound just like something Colonel Lard would have said. Col Lard was Boyington nemesis Colonel Lard was a paper pushing marine bureaucrat that never saw front line service but often used very strict interpretation of regulation as a bludgeon to attack other solders he did not like.

FWIW Baa Baa Black Sheep is heavily fictionalized, to the point that a lot of people call it a lie.

Colonel Lard ( Who was closer to the front lines than you were and how dare someone who never served a day in his life question The Bravery of somebody who served in an actual combat zone?) Was actually a guy named Colonel Joe Smoak.

What Boynton doesn't tell you about his career in the USMC is that he got Passed over for promotion to Captain twice which meant he was on his way out of the Marine Corps and then World War II saved him because he left the Marines and joined the flying tigers. He left the Marines with a specific endorsement that he was never allowed to be on active duty again.

He made so many enemies while he was in the Flying Tigers that he was never invited to join the Flying Tiger Association.

If you have any questions feel free to read Bruce Gambell's book Black Sheep One: The life of Gregory Boyington.

I have never served

Well, I did and I am permanently disabled as a direct result of my service but you go on ahead and explain how to be a good soldier to me.

My one buddy that was a MARSOC Marine serving in both Iraq and Afghanistan said that it was standard operation for his unit to download their magazines.

But you wouldn't really know would you?

 

[mcb]

^FIXED IT FOR YOU ^


FWIW Baa Baa Black Sheep is heavily fictionalized, to the point that a lot of people call it a lie.

Colonel Lard ( Who was closer to the front lines than you were and how dare someone who never served a day in his life question The Bravery of somebody who served in an actual combat zone?) Was actually a guy named Colonel Joe Smoak.

What Boynton doesn't tell you about his career in the USMC is that he got Passed over for promotion to Captain twice which meant he was on his way out of the Marine Corps and then World War II saved him because he left the Marines and joined the flying tigers. He left the Marines with a specific endorsement that he was never allowed to be on active duty again.

He made so many enemies while he was in the Flying Tigers that he was never invited to join the Flying Tiger Association.

If you have any questions feel free to read Bruce Gambell's book Black Sheep One: The life of Gregory Boyington.

Well, I did and I am permanently disabled as a direct result of my service but you go on ahead and explain how to be a good soldier to me.



But you wouldn't really know would you?

Thank you for your service. I am sorry you took that so personally but your post reminded me of that part of the book and it was fresh in my mind as I am in the middle of the book, veracity of the book not withstanding. I never questioned anyone's bravery I was simply paraphrasing the authors sentiment on the the character, again the veracity of that account not withstanding.

As for my buddy that was a Marine, I have know him and worked with him for 7+ years and I have no reason to disbelieve him or his story and reasons his unit chose to down load their magazines. I believe that is what they did whether it was by the regulations or not.

I was not cut out to be a soldier (I did explore the possibility as a young man) but I have worked in the DOD related fields since graduate school (DARPA paid for much of my graduate education). That does not make me a soldier in anyway I have never had to lay my life on the line but I took the talents I was blessed with and have engineered systems for soldiers most of my career. So though a civilian I have had my fair share of exposure to the military and the people within it and did my part to help.

 

[Jim Watson]

If it's designed to be a 30 round magazine, then you can load, store, and use that magazine to its full 30 round capacity.

Certainly a lot of people do, but others settle for fewer, whether by experience or rumor.
Speaking of actual experience, I wonder how many magazines the designer and the guy who wrote the instructions loaded and shot before they turned in their work.
I volunteered to help load AR magazines for one of those "money into smoke" parties and the last couple of rounds are tough to load barehanded.

I am sure the instructions for the STEN said to load 32, but there are reliable reports of Brits settling for 28-30. (My first centerfire was a Luger and I gave it Canadian surplus packed in 64 round boxes, two STEN full loads. Great ammo, never a failure in that supposedly finicky Luger.)

I also find it interesting that the BHP was designed and issued with 13 round mags...

And at least some of those same Brits learnt that they did better loaded with 12, too.

Back when we were content with 7 .45s and 9 .38s, magazine spring life wasn't a consideration, but when competition pressures led to the Cram-'em-in school of thought, extra care had to be taken.

A USPSA magazine has to hold a lot of ammo in a specified length and it gets used a lot.
I have seen shooters stripping their magazines down between stages to clean the lips and stretch the springs.
One popular brand of 1911 8x.45 magazine has a fairly benign failure mode, it quits lifting the slide stop so you know it is time for a new spring, even though it was still feeding reliably..
The double stack 2011 magazines are less forgiving, a weak spring leads to one or another showstopper malfunction. Which is why they are usually replaced on a time or round count schedule, not waiting for them to wear out.

I am sure a mechanical engineer could explain it but it seems contradictory to me that we are at once told that leaving a spring compressed, as in a loaded magazine, does not wear it, yet we are told that a new magazine with stiff spring be left loaded for a while to "set" the spring.

 

[kwguy]

In the Army, during one deployment, we had a run of horrible magazines for the Beretta 9mm. I think those mags were made by Checkmate? The springs were so bad that prior to mission every night we had to download and stretch the springs out (which of course didn’t help them any), just to ensure reliable feeding. Apparently, those mag springs were of poor quality and not well made.

Aside from that, generally awesome reliability from mags when kept loaded or not, both in and out of the .mil.

Also during deployments, we had some 20 round magazines, which were desirable in this particular application for space considerations. Those mags were pretty old, but still worked extremely well.

Yeah, downloading a round from the metal 30 round M4 mags was just to make it easier to load the rifle is all. Some rifles liked that better than others, so it was pretty much an individual thing. Tolerance stacking, like someone mentioned earlier, makes sense.

 

[Jim Watson]

In the Army, during one deployment, we had a run of horrible magazines for the Beretta 9mm. I think those mags were made by checkmate? The springs were so bad that prior to mission every night we had to download and stretch the springs out (which of course didn’t help them any), just to ensure reliable feeding.

Those magazines about busted the reputation of the Beretta, they did not work well with their rough finish and cheap springs.
Commercial Berettas usually get MecGar magazines with few if any complaints.

 

[kwguy]

Those magazines about busted the reputation of the Beretta, they did not work well with their rough finish and cheap springs.
Commercial Berettas usually get MecGar magazines with few if any complaints.

Yeah, the Mecgar mags were (are) great!

 

[The Night Rider]

Yeah, the Mecgar mags were (are) great!

If there is an industry standard it would be Mec Gar.

If Mec Gar made Glock magazines I'd buy them

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Over compressing a spring damages it. Over stretching a spring damages it.

Cycling a spring MAY result in some initial loss of tension...but then it ought to plateau at a stable tension which should last for years of problem free service. This is not abnormal at all and not necessarily indicative of "wear". If continued use results in continuing loss of tension, then the spring is what we, in the engineering world, call "defective".

And yes...those last coupla rounds can be a PITA. But if it's designed to be loaded to that capacity, then it can be loaded to that capacity. If it can't, or if it won't function properly, then that's the fault of either the magazine components or the design. Either way, it should be fixed. There is nothing wrong with down-loading as a temporary measure, but if it's not functioning as designed then there's a problem that should be fixed and NOT lived with.

That any given individual (or organization) may down-load their magazines as a rule is totally beside the point. If they're really having a problem, then they have a problem that needs fixed and they shouldn't "live with it".

In fact, "live with it" is a pretty stupid and dangerous philosophy with respect to firearms which one may be depending on to save their life...or in the military, kill the enemy.

 

[mcb]

Spring life is a moderately complex thing. The cycle life of a spring is based the number of cycles, the amount of strain the spring sees with each cycle and the material it is made from. Magazine springs due to the rectangular coil shape are more difficult to model accurately to measure that maximum strain. If the strain exceed the elastic limit then the spring is damaged and permanently deformed. But even if you don't pass that elastic limit the amount of strain does have an effect on the life span of the spring. A spring that only ever sees strains at 10% of its material's elastic limit may have an infinite fatigue life. While a spring that sees repeated strains at 90% of its elastic limit may have a life span measure in hundreds of cycles. The exact percentage of the elastic limit that results in infinite fatigue life is very material and heat treatment dependent. In my experience few gun spring are designed with infinite fatigue life in mind since you have to give up too much performance to achieve this. Nearly all spring used in magazine are well above the infinite fatigue life strain when fully loaded and thus will slowly loose stiffness over cycles and eventually fail due to cycling. The trick is always making the average cycle life longer than the typical user will experience or at least a rate of replacement they will tolerate.

In a related vein I had the opportunity to test AR fire controls to failure and the primary failure mode of most AR fire control was the hammer spring. Depending on the brand failure happed as short at ~15,000 cycles (on average) and a few brands would make it reliable to 40,000+ cycles but none of the brand I tested and measure were designed to be infinite fatigue life hammer springs. On the other hand IIRC in all that testing I never had a trigger spring fail but then again the trigger spring experience significantly lower strain in use. There is good software out there for engineers and designers (some free on the internet) that lets you input the parameter for your spring and it will predict the expect cycle life of the spring. (The free ones are unlikely to be able to do a spring shaped like a magazine spring unfortunately, the math for round coils is just so much easier) The AR hammer spring are only estimate to have cycle life in the 10,000's of cycles and that corresponds with the testing I have done. On the other hand the recoil spring of an AR carbine is very close to that infinite fatigue life limit. The same test rig that I broke dozens of hammer spring on had the same recoil spring that had seen well over 2.5 million cycles with no measurable loss of free length or stiffness compared to a new spring.

-rambling.

 

[Slamfire]

That doesn't make his opinion official United States Marine Corps Doctrine. I was in the Army for 15 years I was never told to download a magazine. I've never seen it in the -10 for an M16(A1,A2 or A3) either.

In Vietnam it was SOP to load 19 in a 20 round magazine, and not to leave a round chambered overnight. Humidity and whatever would "swell" the round and it could not be extracted without a cleaning rod.

I do believe one of the problems with the aluminum magazine was that the magazine lips would spread with time. I have experienced this with old GI magazines. Magazines have always been the weakest link in the AR platform. Stoner designed his magazines to be cheap and "disposable". Primarily in response to the Infantry School's insistence that 1) magazines weighed too much, and 2) were too expensive. What the Infantry School wanted were stripper clips, or in enbloc clips, such as on the Garand. Incidentally, at the time the General in charge of the Infantry School was a WW1 veteran. I wonder if post WW2 he thought horse cavalry was still relevant.

Times change.

 

[GRIZ22]

No.

I worry about the quality of the magazines.

Back in the 70s I bought some cheap1911 magazines for range use. By the time they were 10 years old, they all dumped the floorplate.

I only carry Colt or premium magazines when I carry a 1911.

Never an issue.

 

[Jim Watson]

That any given individual (or organization) may down-load their magazines as a rule is totally beside the point. If they're really having a problem, then they have a problem that needs fixed and they shouldn't "live with it"

The troops are not exactly in a position to redesign their equipment, they have to hope DoD and the manufacturers catch up.

 

[wayneinFL]

In the Army, during one deployment, we had a run of horrible magazines for the Beretta 9mm. I think those mags were made by Checkmate? The springs were so bad that prior to mission every night we had to download and stretch the springs out (which of course didn’t help them any), just to ensure reliable feeding. Apparently, those mag springs were of poor quality and not well made.

Aside from that, generally awesome reliability from mags when kept loaded or not, both in and out of the .mil.

Also during deployments, we had some 20 round magazines, which were desirable in this particular application for space considerations. Those mags were pretty old, but still worked extremely well.

Yeah, downloading a round from the metal 30 round M4 mags was just to make it easier to load the rifle is all. Some rifles liked that better than others, so it was pretty much an individual thing. Tolerance stacking, like someone mentioned earlier, makes sense.

I don't think it was the springs. I have some of those Checkmate mags, and they were garbage until I scrubbed the inside of them with a shotgun bore brush. I mean, scrubbed the hell out of them, until they were smooth inside. Then they worked fine.

The springs aren't great. They're softer than the ones in my factory mags. But they do work when they're not shoving rounds through sandpaper.

 

[kwguy]

I don't think it was the springs. I have some of thise Checkmate mags, and they were garbage until I scrubbed the inside of them with a shotgun bore brush. I mean, scrubbed the hell out of them, until they were smooth inside. Then they worked fine.

The springs aren't great. They're softer than the ones in my factory mags. But they do work when they're not shoving rounds through sandpaper.

I’m sure that had something to do with it.

 

[Jim Watson]

OK, I inquired of a couple of long serving veterans.
They both said that they loaded an M16 from an open bolt with a full magazine, but downloaded their reload magazines for easy insertion under a closed bolt. Is that a defect warranting redesign?

 

[Tinman357]

I never downloaded. Never had issue with seating a magazine on a closed bolt. That said, I have had to replace mag springs on some older mags. +20 yrs old.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

The troops are not exactly in a position to redesign their equipment, they have to hope DoD and the manufacturers catch up.

The interesting thing about this is that I have seen no indications from people I've known in the military that there is an honest need to download the magazines of their weapons. None. None of the SEALs I've known on the SpecOps deployments I've made, none of the range masters, none of my relatives, nobody. Every armed watchstander on any of the ship's I've been on carried magazines loaded to design capacity. The Air Force NEVER had any of their personnel standing guard over SAC bombers doing so with anything less than fully loaded magazines.

The M-16's I've shot while in the military were always loaded to capacity on the range. Neither of the M&P-15s my wife and I own have ever had any issues. None of our pistols exhibit any issues.

And saying that the troops aren't in a position to redesign their equipment is a red herring. Of course it's not their job to do so. But if there really IS a systemic problem with a firearm, you can bet in short order it'll be quite well known everywhere because these things have a way of spreading. If that were to happen, then attention would be drawn to the issue and it would get addressed. Indeed, this is exactly what happened with the M-16 when it was first introduced. It had issues with reliability and malfunctions and became the subject of a Congressional investigation and eventually lead to the M16A1. There were also ammunition issues which had to be addressed as well to fully address this.

The M4 Carbine also had problems...which were likewise addressed.

And in all this, there's nothing about magazine capacity affecting reliability or malfunctions.

YES, there are firearms out there which have problems related to magazines. Anyone who has such issues should PROPERLY address this by FIXING the underlying problem and not living with it through some stop-gap measures. Deliberately choosing to, perhaps, carry such a firearm as a potential instrument of self-defense where your very life depends on it being functionally reliable is folly. The proper way to handle this is:

1. Fix or replace the defective magazines.
2. Fix or replace the firearm itself.
3. Get rid of the firearm in favor of something which does not have systemic problems.