Would you rely on an AK as your primary defensive rifle?

[adcoch1]

I would have zero problems using an AK in a defensive role, but my choice is the AR pattern rifles and pistols. I've had several ak pattern guns over the years, and they are a hoot to shoot especially the saiga shotguns, but the weight and accuracy of the AR just edges them out for a lot of roles. I actually like the SKS more than the AK for close in hunting roles, and arguably an SKS would deliver a better butt stroke or work better as a bayonet handle than either AK or AR. But I'm not fighting wars at the moment, so my sporting and defensive purposes are better suited to the AR.

 

[d2wing]

For 250 yards and in, AK RIFLE IS FINE.

But they suck for shooting groups for accuracy, at distances much beyond 250 yards, or if you want to do any kind of upgrade to them.

250 yards is really far out there for an AK. Uncle Ho said his fighters had to be in belt buckle grabbing distance. I saw first hand That he was right, that AK's have no range, no accuracy and a rainbow trajectory. But I am willing to have a match with a wager. I have already wagered my life in firefights against them.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Old Norinco?View attachment 1186500

Ooooh...milled receiver too. (drooling)

 

[X62503]

I also own both, but need more time and training with my SAS-M7 to elevate it to "go-to" status.

 

[Ignition Override]

This gent who evaluates many rifles to 3,500 or 5,000 rounds can be interesting; barrel temps measured/controlled, regular headspace and bolt lug + shoulder wear freq. checked. He originally was trained in the Polish army.

If an AR is usually evaluated with a scope such as a red dot, then such a scope on a quality AKM might allow a more valid comparison than the AK's leaf sight and short sight distance vs. the rear aperture of an AR with various better sight distances (vs. typical AKM).

——-Here Rob shoots out to 300 yards. I suspect that plenty of people don't want a 'more level playing field' against their AR ("confirmation bias"). Also, Tech Sights might still offer a dedicated AKM dust cover with an aperture sight. The specific Tech Sight designed for the SKS makes a large difference. Specific models are available for other rifle types.

AK with Red Dot - Simple Zero - Run it like a Boss all the way to 300yds!

AK with Red Dot is very attractive idea for many since red dots don't add much of the weight and are extremely intuitive for the shooter. Here is very simple...

www.youtube.com

Guys often seem to require the very best ergos.
As a lefty I've never been familiar with good ergos on any gun. But all of the many guns I've owned feel "normal".
Try an HK-91 or the clone I have, the PTR-91, and you probably won't like it. A friend from Essen Germany (he was a civilian over there) racked the stiff charging handle of my PTR (G3 clone), and even with the fairly heavy trigger, he never complained.
Hundreds of European women in various military services qualified with the HK G3 and were able to handle the ergos.

 

[drobs]

What stock did you use?

The under folder has either Russian or Bulgarian AK74 poly stocks on it. On my Sar-1 with a polymer folder, thats a Magpul Zhukov.

I stripped and refinished a few of those Romanian G Kit laminate stocks. They actually have some pretty colors in them.

As far as building goes, I used a bolt cutter rivet tool on the front trunion rivets and hand formed via punch and hammer the rear trunion rivets. All my AK receivers are FFL receivers - not DIY receivers. I put 1 barrel on myself using the all thread method. Marc Krebs of Krebs Custom put 1 barrel on and showed me some tricks to get the other barrels on w/o a press. He actually offered me a job, which like an idiot, I turned down.

 

[trackskippy]

This gent who evaluates many rifles to 3,500 or 5,000 rounds can be interesting; barrel temps measured/controlled, regular headspace and bolt lug + shoulder wear freq. checked. He originally was trained in the Polish army.

If an AR is usually evaluated with a scope such as a red dot, then such a scope on a quality AKM might allow a more valid comparison than the AK's leaf sight and short sight distance vs. the rear aperture of an AR with various better sight distances (vs. typical AKM).

——-Here Rob shoots out to 300 yards. I suspect that plenty of people don't want a 'more level playing field' ("confirmation bias"). Also, Tech Sights might still offer a dedicated AKM dust cover with an aperture sight. The specific Tech Sight designed for the SKS makes a large difference. Specific models are available for other rifle types.

AK with Red Dot - Simple Zero - Run it like a Boss all the way to 300yds!

AK with Red Dot is very attractive idea for many since red dots don't add much of the weight and are extremely intuitive for the shooter. Here is very simple...

www.youtube.com

Guys talk about ergos.
As a lefty I've never been familiar with good ergos on any gun. But all of the many guns I've owned feel "normal".
Try an HK-91 or the clone I have, the PTR-91, and you probably won't like it. A friend from Essen Germany (he was a civilian over there) racked the stiff charging handle of my PTR (G3 clone), and even with the fairly heavy trigger, he never complained.
Hundreds of European women in various military services qualified with the HK G3 and were able to handle the ergos.

I think youve touched on the reality spot here. As it seems with most things, people know what they know and are clueless about anything they don't, and anything else has to be crap.

My experience with comparing the AR's and the AK's has been, when you compare "comparable guns"** side by side in more realistic shooting (not your best little group shot sandbagged on a bench) they really arent all that different out to the 200-300 yards or so I think both guns are realistic. Yes, the AR has better iron "target" sights, but the AK is no slacker, if you can shoot, and as soon as you pop a decent red dot on them, things narrow down even more.

(** and when I say comparable guns, I mean the standard, issue type guns. Not the souped up, tuned up AR's that so many seem to only be able to shoot vs a basic import AK. You need to be at least somewhat realistic about things)


And as far as the complaints about ergo's, etc about the AK's, HK's, or anything "different", if people would bother to take a little time and effort to keep their continuing education going and learn as much about as much as they can, they would see that most all the different guns work well and about the same, and shoot reasonably well (assuming you can shoot) if you run them as they were meant to be, and not the one gun you like and swear by. You need to spend some quality time ith any of them to figure things out and how best to work them.

You always hear basically the same regurgitated complaints about this or that, and those complaints usually come from those who have no real experience with what it is they are bitching about. And to take that to another level, you get the complaints the gun is bad/no good, because its an enemies weapon and someone shot at them with one.

People really need to get out more.

 

[drobs]

You can get AK's in 5.56x45.

And there are some AK's in 5.56 that take AR mags.

That has been a recent thought of mine with my Galil. I would like it more if it took AR mags. There are some hard to find and very expensive AR mag conversions out there for the Galil. All of them require gun smithing to work correctly and then the mag release is on the wrong side. My thought would be to buy one of those conversions, fit to my Galil, and then find a Machine Shop or 3D Printer to make more of them in plastic with modifications. It should use a standard right side AR mag release.

Making some generalizations most shooters in my area of Missouri have AR15's. A few have 7.62x39 AK's. I'm probably the only one around with a 5.56 Galil. Last time I was at a public outdoor range, I had multiple people ask to shoot my Galil, which I let them. I guess this gun stars in multiple video games.

New and used Galil mags are readily available and affordable right now. 5 to 10 years from now that could change.

 

[brunowbe]

And there are some AK's in 5.56 that take AR mags.

That has been a recent thought of mine with my Galil. I would like it more if it took AR mags. There are some hard to find and very expensive AR mag conversions out there for the Galil. All of them require gun smithing to work correctly and then the mag release is on the wrong side. My thought would be to buy one of those conversions, fit to my Galil, and then find a Machine Shop or 3D Printer to make more of them in plastic with modifications. It should use a standard right side AR mag release.

Making some generalizations most shooters in my area of Missouri have AR15's. A few have 7.62x39 AK's. I'm probably the only one around with a 5.56 Galil. Last time I was at a public outdoor range, I had multiple people ask to shoot my Galil, which I let them. I guess this gun stars in multiple video games.

New and used Galil mags are readily available and affordable right now. 5 to 10 years from now that could change.

Galil Ace 5.56 is what you seek. I went with a Gen 1 due to not wanting to have to add sights.
Gen 1
Gen 2

 

[drobs]

Galil Ace 5.56 is what you seek. I went with a Gen 1 due to not wanting to have to add sights.
Gen 1
View attachment 1186695Gen 2
View attachment 1186696

Being left handed, I've eliminated the Galil Ace from my consideration namely for the left side charging handle. If someone made a right side charging handle for it, I'd be more tempted. Also the price is just too high for me. I might be tempted at $1000 to $1300. $1700 on sale is too much.

The PSA 5.56 AK has almost everything I want at $1250

https://palmettostatearmory.com/ak-47/ak-5-56.html

 

[valnar]

Both the AR and AK "suffer" from popularity, which makes discussing their technical merits difficult to do in a vacuum. Both Stoner and Kalashnikov are revered for their contributions, yet you seldom see new designs with long-stroke pistons or DI. Why is that?

I think short stroke piston designs offer the best of all worlds with the least amount of negatives. We've seen lots of designs lately with this style.

 

[kalah]

I have both and would be comfortable with either, especially my SBR Galil in 5.45 for which I have a boatload of ammo. It is quite accurate and effective, even with the short barrel (though a bit heavy).

That said, my actual go-to rifles are both SBR'd AR configs in 300 BLK. AK power and less weight with HV loads and quiet in subsonic.

 

[CraigC]

Being left handed, I've eliminated the Galil Ace from my consideration namely for the left side charging handle. If someone made a right side charging handle for it, I'd be more tempted. Also the price is just too high for me. I might be tempted at $1000 to $1300. $1700 on sale is too much.

The PSA 5.56 AK has almost everything I want at $1250

https://palmettostatearmory.com/ak-47/ak-5-56.html

I could talk myself into that real easy.

 

[BreechFace]

I could talk myself into that real easy.

Start talking!

 

[Ignition Override]

trackskippy: When about 60 countries used the G3 (ie my PTR-91 "Classic GI" is a clone) during the Cold War ...apparently... both men & women managed to charge the rifles, deal with the forward C.G. ("front heavy") and didn't need a bolt-hold-open feature.
How did they deal with the awkward ergos? We've been to Europe 31 times (+ my wife lived in Heidelberg) and women in Europe don't expect to be pampered.

This soldier in Lithuania might have managed alright with her G3.

 

[trackskippy]

I had two HK91's back in the 80's through the early 2000's. I never found them to be any different than anything else once you figured them out and mine were as accurate as my M1A's.

They were also very innovative when you think about it and introduced us to a lot of the things we take for granted today. I still think their iron sights are the best all around combat iron sights going, and their claw mounts gave us quick R/R optic mounts. Their slings were also innovative and brought about change there too.

Their triggers always seemed to be a problem for a lot of people, as was the lack of a BHO on empty. I think both of those are more of an American thing, and the lack of the BHO is a complaint with the AK's and a couple of others as well, but its not really a big deal, and the guns are "always" reloaded after any mag change.

Charging the guns can take a little getting used to, especially when prone, and can be rough for some. You just have to find your way. The charging handles can vary between guns and uses and some can make things a bit easier to work than others. I always preferred the larger winter knobs, but the standard more narrow knob isn't bad. You can also put a piece of paracord through the hole in the lever and make a loop or braid, and that can help with getting a hold of things and levering the bolt open. Its the initial overriding the unlocking of the bolt that's the hardest part.

A lot of people bitched about the forward C.G. and different recoil impulse too, but I never found it to be a problem. I actually kind of liked the weight a bit forward, especially when shooting offhand.

Tha A2 stocks are the best choice, and whoever came up with the G3/91 slider version should be beat with it. The 93/MP5 versions were another story.

 

[Ignition Override]

trackskippy: That's really cool that you owned the true HK-91s. Kicked myself so many times for not have the gun bug until age 52, mostly due to the -91, FALs and adjusted dollar-value prices for surplus (S.A. etc) 7,62 NATO ammo,
about 20-25 years ago.

Some of the PTR-91s have had charging handles with 'geometry' that was out of spec. PTR originally used many HK components until they ran out, then bought/imported typical (licensed) HK G3 tooling from Portugal, then gradually converting to CNC manufacturing .
Several guys on "HKPRO" people designate such an issue a "wrong charging handle gap" iirc, needing adjustment.

 

[JDGray]

The under folder has either Russian or Bulgarian AK74 poly stocks on it. On my Sar-1 with a polymer folder, thats a Magpul Zhukov.

I stripped and refinished a few of those Romanian G Kit laminate stocks. They actually have some pretty colors in them.

As far as building goes, I used a bolt cutter rivet tool on the front trunion rivets and hand formed via punch and hammer the rear trunion rivets. All my AK receivers are FFL receivers - not DIY receivers. I put 1 barrel on myself using the all thread method. Marc Krebs of Krebs Custom put 1 barrel on and showed me some tricks to get the other barrels on w/o a press. He actually offered me a job, which like an idiot, I turned down.

Did that G kit underfolder with the "straight style" stock work ok? I know the lock notches determined the angle, just wondering if the lock works properly in open and closed positions.

 

[Justin]

250 yards is really far out there for an AK. Uncle Ho said his fighters had to be in belt buckle grabbing distance. I saw first hand That he was right, that AK's have no range, no accuracy and a rainbow trajectory. But I am willing to have a match with a wager. I have already wagered my life in firefights against them.

As someone who aspires to the ideal of The American Rifleman, the AK just doesn't cut it.

Regarding a "match with a wager" I've spent the better part of the last two decades volunteering as an RSO for a practical rifle match, including once a year when we conduct an AK vs AR match where any competitor can compete with two rifles for a single match fee.

In order to make the match competitive for AKs and SKSs, the targets are set at a closer range than we normally do.

In the years spent assisting on this match, and looking at match results, it's rare for someone to run both an AR and an AK and do better with the AK.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I own both I prefer the AR.

Ha ha. I own both I prefer the AK. !!! But, I have more trigger time on the AK (like way way way way more) and have no desire to add doo-dads to either, (my AR is a M16 clone/semi-auto) so the AK is the preference.

 

[d2wing]

I think youve touched on the reality spot here. As it seems with most things, people know what they know and are clueless about anything they don't, and anything else has to be crap.

My experience with comparing the AR's and the AK's has been, when you compare "comparable guns"** side by side in more realistic shooting (not your best little group shot sandbagged on a bench) they really arent all that different out to the 200-300 yards or so I think both guns are realistic. Yes, the AR has better iron "target" sights, but the AK is no slacker, if you can shoot, and as soon as you pop a decent red dot on them, things narrow down even more.

(** and when I say comparable guns, I mean the standard, issue type guns. Not the souped up, tuned up AR's that so many seem to only be able to shoot vs a basic import AK. You need to be at least somewhat realistic about things)


And as far as the complaints about ergo's, etc about the AK's, HK's, or anything "different", if people would bother to take a little time and effort to keep their continuing education going and learn as much about as much as they can, they would see that most all the different guns work well and about the same, and shoot reasonably well (assuming you can shoot) if you run them as they were meant to be, and not the one gun you like and swear by. You need to spend some quality time ith any of them to figure things out and how best to work them.

You always hear basically the same regurgitated complaints about this or that, and those complaints usually come from those who have no real experience with what it is they are bitching about. And to take that to another level, you get the complaints the gun is bad/no good, because its an enemies weapon and someone shot at them with one.

People really need to get out more.

I don't buy what you are selling. I have a Saiga that is by far the most accurate Ak I have seen. I would wager that I can outshoot your AK with it. But just the same, My cheap Del-Ton will out shoot it by a big margin. I have posted groups in the past. You claim that no-one especially me is objective in my evaluation. I assure you that I am and you are not. No, a person that can shoot and with rifles in spec and similar quality and ammunition the AR will out the Ak at any range. I am willing to wager that my Saiga will beat your AK and my AR will outshoot your AK by a substantial margin. Off a bench or prone to 400 meters, the qualifying range for the AR. And with standard military shooting positions as well. If I lose I will by you the beverage of your choice, If I win I will settle for a glass of sweet tea. Also willing to wager a modest amount of money. You comment about us vets being biased by combat is a grievous insult common to low life types.

 

[Old Dog]

And to take that to another level, you get the complaints the gun is bad/no good, because its an enemies weapon and someone shot at them with one.

Gosh, wonder who that was directed toward. I made no complaint about the AK due to that; I stated that as my personal preference which is also based on principle.

 

[d2wing]

Gosh, wonder who that was directed toward. I made no complaint about the AK due to that; I stated that as my personal preference which is also based on principle.

It is an uncalled-for insult to every combat veteran.

 

[trackskippy]

I don't buy what you are selling. I have a Saiga that is by far the most accurate Ak I have seen. I would wager that I can outshoot your AK with it. But just the same, My cheap Del-Ton will out shoot it by a big margin. I have posted groups in the past. You claim that no-one especially me is objective in my evaluation. I assure you that I am and you are not. No, a person that can shoot and with rifles in spec and similar quality and ammunition the AR will out the Ak at any range. I am willing to wager that my Saiga will beat your AK and my AR will outshoot your AK by a substantial margin. Off a bench or prone to 400 meters, the qualifying range for the AR. And with standard military shooting positions as well. If I lose I will by you the beverage of your choice, If I win I will settle for a glass of sweet tea. Also willing to wager a modest amount of money. You comment about us vets being biased by combat is a grievous insult common to low life types.

I think I was pretty clear about what I had and how they shot/shoot. My Saiga and other AK's all shot very similarly with the same ammo, and the Saiga wasn't really "special" other than Krebs restored it back to a more or less AK103 type condition. I shoot everything the same (field positions, not off a bench), and most of my guns would be considered "stock" for what they are. Nothing tuned up or special grade about them. As I said, all my AR's with red dots all seem to shoot about the same as all my AK's with red dots out to about 200 yards or so, which I consider both guns more or less useful and realistic ranges.


As far as the insult and cowardice thing, some of you boys need to lighten up and get over yourselves. Ive heard more than once around here that the gun was bad because of exactly what I said above, and that was the excuse for it not being a good weapon. How that is somehow taken as an insult to whomever is ridiculous. Its a friggin gun. What next? Cars made in a country we are/were at war with are bad too?

 

[d2wing]

I think I was pretty clear about what I had and how they shot/shoot. My Saiga and other AK's all shot very similarly with the same ammo, and the Saiga wasn't really "special" other than Krebs restored it back to a more or less AK103 type condition. I shoot everything the same (field positions, not off a bench), and most of my guns would be considered "stock" for what they are. Nothing tuned up or special grade about them. As I said, all my AR's with red dots all seem to shoot about the same as all my AK's with red dots out to about 200 yards or so, which I consider both guns more or less useful and realistic ranges.


As far as the insult and cowardice thing, some of you boys need to lighten up and get over yourselves. Ive heard more than once around here that the gun was bad because of exactly what I said above, and that was the excuse for it not being a good weapon. How that is somehow taken as an insult to whomever is ridiculous. Its a friggin gun. What next? Cars made in a country we are/were at war with are bad too?

You cannot evaluate anything due to lack of skill and knowledge and any proper methodology. My challenge stands. It's not about the gun. It's about you insulting all combat veterans. and anyone with real experience. Who can more properly evaluate weapons than those who use them and fought in battles. Again with the insults. You are just another fan boy with no credibility. How is it in your mamas basement.