WST and .45acp

[conan32120]

I've read lots of posts about how well WST powder works in .45acp but I am not having the same results. my latest loading were 5.0gr under a 200gr berb swc at 1.18" and 4.5gr under a 230gr berb rn at 1.25", both fired from numerous pistols but primarily a sig p220. both loads approaching listed max and both suffering fte's and poor accuracy. Does WST require a heavy crimp? Though I've noticed no high pressure signs I'm hesitant to push the envelope as I've read that this powder can spike quickly. Any thoughts?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've read lots of posts about how well WST powder works in .45acp but I am not having the same results. my latest loading were 5.0gr under a 200gr berb swc at 1.18" and 4.5gr under a 230gr berb rn at 1.25", both fired from numerous pistols but primarily a sig p220. both loads approaching listed max and both suffering fte's and poor accuracy. Does WST require a heavy crimp? Though I've noticed no high pressure signs I'm hesitant to push the envelope as I've read that this powder can spike quickly. Any thoughts?

Did you start at the minimum and work up to those or start at the max? I’m also wondering about the short COAL; 1.220-1.230” is a more typical range for a 200gr SWC and just about any RN 230gr will work at 1.200”. Do they plunk okay in the Sig?

 

[LiveLife]

WST ... .45acp ... 5.0gr under a 200gr berb swc at 1.18" and 4.5gr under a 230gr berb rn at 1.25", both fired from numerous pistols but primarily a sig p220. both loads approaching listed max and both suffering fte's and poor accuracy. Does WST require a heavy crimp?

No. Berry's recommend you apply light taper crimp so as to not cut through the plating or deform the bullet.

From Berry's FAQ page - https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq

"Do not over-crimp the bullet. Crimping so tight that bullet deformation occurs, or plating is separated causing visible exposure of the lead core will cause tumbling, key-holing, and reduced accuracy."
​

With case wall thickness averaging .011", I usually apply .022" to the diameter of the bullet, especially for plated bullets, which will return the flare back flat on the bullet and skosh more.

So for .452" diameter Berry's bullet, I use .474" taper crimp.

WST ... .45acp ... 5.0gr under a 200gr berb swc at 1.18" and 4.5gr under a 230gr berb rn at 1.25" ... both loads approaching listed max

With regular plated Berry's bullets, I have had good results using lead load data. I found using higher than mid range jacketed load data would start to enlarge group size.

Here are Hodgdon's lead load data - https://shop.hodgdon.com/reloading-data-center

• 45ACP 200 gr Lead SWC WST COL 1.225" Start 4.4 gr (830 fps) - Max 5.1 gr (910 fps)
• 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN WST COL 1.200" Start 4.0 gr (776 fps) - Max 4.3 gr (812 fps)S

For 200 gr SWC load, your COL is shorter than published which increases pressure. I would redo the powder work up from 4.4 gr with .474" taper crimp and watch the accuracy trend.

For 230 gr RN load, although your COL is longer than published, you are over max lead load data and I suggest you conduct another powder work up from 4.0 gr.

 

[kidneyboy]

My normal 200gr coated SWC load is 4.2gr or 4.4gr WST at 1.225 OAL. It has run in various 1911s, a glock 21, an XDM and an XDE.
As mentioned above, have you done a plunk test?

 

[Blue68f100]

I use 4.1-4.2 gr WST with 185gr & 200gr LSWC. Min posted is 4.4 gr. I have not measured my OAL since it's customary to seat with a thumb nail thickness exposed, shoulder exposed.

I haven't shot any Berrys plated in a very long time. What I do know is once I went over mid (lead data) load the groups started opening up.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I use 4.1-4.2 gr WST with 185gr & 200gr LSWC. Min posted is 4.4 gr. I have not measured my OAL since it's customary to seat with a thumb nail thickness exposed, shoulder exposed.

I haven't shot any Berrys plated in a very long time. What I do know is once I went over mid (lead data) load the groups started opening up.

The OP’s problem with FTE’s - which I assume is failure to extract - to me kind of indicates he’s already crimping too much and the case is expanded tightly in to the chamber and won’t let go. Sig-Sauer pistols are not fussy in my experience but I have only owned two and neither was a.45. So maybe they need a little more oomph and a tight crimp which makes the BRB a bad choice. Anybody have direct experience with the Sig .45’s?

 

[lordpaxman]

Welcome to THR.

My P220 is quite happy with bayou 200gr SWC at 1.245”, 4.9gr WST, Vavg 855. That’s a comfortable major PF, and a thumbnail above the case mouth. 4.8gr WST is just at major. Taper crimp is just to remove the bell. Lighter loads work as well, if you don’t care about the PF.

230gr Rainier RN, 1.230”, 4.2 WST, Vavg 812, is just at major.

Are you using a balance or digital scale? What/how did you start these loads with? Have you verified powder charges? Any chrono data?
If factory loads in your 220 extract/eject ok, I’d say you were over the limit already. Good luck.

 

[conan32120]

Did you start at the minimum and work up to those or start at the max? I’m also wondering about the short COAL; 1.220-1.230” is a more typical range for a 200gr SWC and just about any RN 230gr will work at 1.200”. Do they plunk okay in the Sig?

plunk is fine, manual feed is fine, load just seems very underpowered

 

[conan32120]

Welcome to THR.

My P220 is quite happy with bayou 200gr SWC at 1.245”, 4.9gr WST, Vavg 855. That’s a comfortable major PF, and a thumbnail above the case mouth. 4.8gr WST is just at major. Taper crimp is just to remove the bell. Lighter loads work as well, if you don’t care about the PF.

230gr Rainier RN, 1.230”, 4.2 WST, Vavg 812, is just at major.

Are you using a balance or digital scale? What/how did you start these loads with? Have you verified powder charges? Any chrono data?
If factory loads in your 220 extract/eject ok, I’d say you were over the limit already. Good luck.

this is the first powder/bullet combo thats given me issues. I started at recommended start loads and they were so week I ended up pulling the bullets. i also fired thru an HK USP and a govt model with near identical results except the HK couldnt hit the paper at 10'. In my test loads I only load 20 rounds at each weight and use a balance scale checked on my digital. sorry no chrony but as my wife liked to tell everyone that would listen, they nearly just blooped out, the brass stayed near my feet

 

[LiveLife]

load just seems very underpowered ... also fired thru an HK USP and a govt model with near identical results except the HK couldnt hit the paper at 10'

Missing target at 3 yards? Wow, something is definitely wrong if you are experiencing the same problem with different guns (Hint, suspect your reloads).

How does factory ammo shoot in the same pistols?

use a balance scale checked on my digital. sorry no chrony

Using one scale to check another is like verifying accuracy of time with two clocks ... Both could be wrong.

I would verify the scales with check weights to rule out low powder charge. This set goes down to .15 gr for $11 -
https://www.amazon.com/Bekith-Preci...rds=scale+check+weights&qid=1627853624&sr=8-3

 

[conan32120]

Missing target at 3 yards? Wow, something is definitely wrong if you are experiencing the same problem with different guns (Hint, suspect your reloads).

How does factory ammo shoot in the same pistols?


Using one scale to check another is like verifying accuracy of time with two clocks ... Both could be wrong.

I would verify the scales with check weights to rule out low powder charge. This set goes down to .15 gr for $11 -
https://www.amazon.com/Bekith-Preci...rds=scale+check+weights&qid=1627853624&sr=8-3

sorry meant 10 yards, 30 feet which is still very sad, factory and my 231 and bullseye loads work awesome just WST has me scratching my noggin, and i do check my scales with various objects like bullets or brass

 

[LiveLife]

sorry meant 10 yards ... still very sad, factory and my 231 and bullseye loads work awesome

I agree ... my accuracy standard for decent ammo is 1" at 7-10 yards, 2" at 15 yards and 3" at 25 yards.

Since factory and W231/Bullseye loads shot well (And I assume same components were used for the WST load), I am suspicious of the WST load.

 

[Charlie98]

plunk is fine, manual feed is fine, load just seems very underpowered

Personally, I don't use WST for 230's... to get the velocity I want, I have to redline the load... and as you mentioned, it's a fast powder and can be peaky. I like it for 200's... I shoot mostly 200grn plated RN of various make. I've found WST to not produce the velocity other powders like W244 or Unique, or even W231, given similar loading parameters, but I have found it produces pretty good accuracy at lower velocity.

I think WST is very sensitive to bullet seating depth, and likely crimp, much like W244 is (in my experience.)

 

[joneb]

For 45 acp in pistol I have had best results with Bullseye and W-231 for 200-230gr bullets. I have not tried WST

 

[lordpaxman]

this is the first powder/bullet combo thats given me issues. I started at recommended start loads and they were so week I ended up pulling the bullets.

That was not my experience at all. While I did not get the velocity per the published data, it was close and those loads were fine for lighter target loads. Rounds functioned fine even with the stock spring, E/E was ok. Velocity increase was linear WRT charge increase. I did not see any indication of erratic behavior at the top end, that is this is a well behaved powder in my book.
I’m not trying to sell you on WST although I’m a fan and use a lot in .45, .40 and .38.
Was the FTE a Failure To Extract, or Eject? Given your wife’s description, “bloopy”, could be eject?
It would be unlikely but I wonder if you have a bad batch of powder? Have you measured neck tension with your setup, That is just measuring a case before and after sizing? Are your cases sooty from mouth to head after firing?
Lots of questions, depends on if you want to pursue this any further but let us know your thoughts?

 

[derek45]

WST is very accurate and clean burning with quality 230gr bullets.

 

[kcofohio]

The load I use most with WST is 5.1 gr. for the Berry's 185 gr. HBRN. At OAL of 1.250", it cycles reliably in both our Ruger and Kimber.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The load I use most with WST is 5.1 gr. for the Berry's 185 gr. HBRN. At OAL of 1.250", it cycles reliably in both our Ruger and Kimber.

The only loads for WST I use regularly are 4.1gr under a lubed 200gr cast LRN for a fun plinking round - it's enough to punch paper and make cans dance - and 5.0gr. under an Albert's 200gr. waxed/swaged LSWC. It's a very accurate and easy to handle load with that powder/bullet combo. I use it interchangeably in .45 with Red Dot and Bullseye. The OP's problems confuse me greatly - Berry's are quality cast/plated bullets, WST is an easy powder to use and very well behaved, Sig's are famous for NOT being fussy eaters, the OAL's still seem a little off to me - a deeply-seated plated lead bullet can cause all kinds of problems but the OP insists that seating depth with that bullet works well with other powders in that gun and every other .45 he's tried so I have to think it's not the obvious answer. Beats me. Seems like a bad batch of powder or maybe somebody put WSF in a WST can????

 

[DanK3Pos]

Is it possible your powder is bad? Can you try a different cartridge to see if you get similar results? I know Hodgdon has load data for WST in .38 Special and .40 S&W.

 

[conan32120]

Is it possible your powder is bad? Can you try a different cartridge to see if you get similar results? I know Hodgdon has load data for WST in .38 Special and .40 S&W.

wst load data is sparse for .38, i looked hoping to find a favorable recipient for this powder. the powder being bad has crossed my mind, my next step is using lswc and 185 gr xtp's, I may even try mag primers out of curiosity. I cant get to the range as often as I'd like so my exploration into this issue is taking longer than I would like which is why I called out for others thoughts. Oh the joys of reloading.

 

[DanK3Pos]

wst load data is sparse for .38, i looked hoping to find a favorable recipient for this powder. the powder being bad has crossed my mind, my next step is using lswc and 185 gr xtp's, I may even try mag primers out of curiosity. I cant get to the range as often as I'd like so my exploration into this issue is taking longer than I would like which is why I called out for others thoughts. Oh the joys of reloading.

I would have to review my load data, but I'm reasonably certain I've loaded Berrry's 230 FMJ with WST. My main complaint was that a lot of it ended up on the shellplate and the press was a mess in short order. Maybe I needed more dwell time. No problems with performance, though. I switched to Unique after that, which I really like. I'm getting old and I'm perfectly fine with being old school.