XCR or AR15 + mods?

[JustinJ]

The alternative 1 is SLR-106. Costs less half of what XCR does. Reviews of it has been AWESOME. Problems: thin barrel (common to most AKs). AK reliability and Arsenal quality are well known. Spare parts are available from many suppliers. For the price of XCR I can get THREE AKs.

Please explain why you think the barrel profile of an AK is a problem, ecspecially in semi auto. The only advantage a thicker barrel offers in a semiauto gun, except for knuckle heads who use them as crowbars, is slower and less POI as the barrel heats up. But thicker barrels also cool down slower. They are also less prone to POI shift from pressure like slings and bipods but those issues are irrelevant in an AK as it is not a precision weapon.

 

[Sam1911]

We just had a thread like this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=631129

Lots of good info shared there. Maybe read through that one carefully and see if you don't find the advice you need.

What would make a better choice out of these three as SHTF rifle.

And look, remember, if the <Poop> really does HTF, you don't need a rifle. You need a shovel, and some windex, and a whole lot of paper towels. Maybe some Vap-O-Rub to smear under your nose to reduce the odor. But most important, remember to unplug that fan! I've said it a hundred times, you just can't clean <poop> off a spinning fan!

 

[Robert]

Edit:
Wrong thread

 

[C-grunt]

Go try out a good properly built AR15 like a Colt or Daniel Defense and you will change your mind about them being a "Diva". If it really were as unreliable as people like to believe the military would have dropped it years ago.

The Robarms are supposed to be a good weapon but its all proprietary from that company.

The Arsenals are great and Im with JustinJ on not really seeing a problem with the barrel profile of an AK.

Im not a fan of the piston AR. There is no standard and they tend to cause more problems than they fix. You get more carbon and crap in your chamber during extraction than you do from the DI system.

 

[briansmithwins]

Robarms CS has them on my 'do not buy' list.

Gas piston ARs are just too variable and unproven. If you're going AR go with the original design.

I went AK. Since 7.62x39 is running about 1/2 the price of 5.56 NATO, I went with a SLR107FR. Which has been running very nicely for me at the local rifle matches.

BSW

 

[Boomie]

Since when do AR's need to be babied? Since when are they unable to shoot steel cased ammo? I must be running my AR wrong as it gives me no issues no matter what I shoot or how little I clean.

 

[Z-Michigan]

110% of what C-Grunt said. Quality DI ARs work fine in all conditions and do not have a problem with any decent steelcase (like Wolf, or the Hornady practice ammo). Some of the cheapest steelcased ammo is so awful that no gun will run with it.

I would go with a quality DI AR. And in many cases a complete upper is $550 or less, there's your modularity and quick change.

Piston ARs have all the issues noted. They can be OK, but you're getting a proprietary setup without some of the potential benefits of the XCR, and usually at around the same cost. If I were going to get one anyway I would choose an Adams Arms (or Huldra Arms, same product with a different name) or an LWRC.

Good AKs are fine too. I would go with an SGL-21 if you want to go that route.

 

[valnar]

If you want a piston AR, take a look at the PWS offering. Downside it is about as expensive as the XCR. It made my short list (actually, its on my to-buy list)

 

[JustinJ]

Quality DI ARs work fine in all conditions and do not have a problem with any decent steelcase

There have been reports of quality ARs such as Colt and BCM not cyclling properly with steel cased ammo. Supposedly the reason is that they have the smaller mil spec gas port size of .063 compared to other commercial ARs with larger gas ports. As the gas ports erodes over time the problem can fade.

 

[Girodin]

Alternative 2. GAS PISTON AR. Gas piston elliminates most of the "smoke in chamber" issue, which makes a problem shooting steel cased ammo in AR15.

Hmmm, I shoot mostly steel case through my noveske with no issue. DI has nothing to do with whether it runs steel case. It has to do with how well the gun is built. Forego the piston and get a quality DI AR.

 

[Ro1911]

I'm voteing for DI AR15 as well, I have a an arsenal slr 106f, a smith and wesson M&P 15, and a dpms AR, they all run equally well. My vote would be for the M&P15 it's a well built gun for not much money.

The one I got was like $850 and now they even have an economy model they call the M&P 15 sport and it's like $600

I'd say save your money on buying the gun and use the rest to buy a nice optic.

 

[Carter]

I've owned an xcr. It was very reliable, ergonomic, and easy to clean. It was also less accurate than my friends AR, took 10 weeks of robarms lying to me to get here, and has a few weak points in the design.

My bcm ar runs 100% with brown bear, tula, wolf, silver bear, and brass. It rarely gets cleaned, just some new clp every now and then.

A heavy barrel its nice for paper, but the front end of a gun gets real heavy real fast.

 

[Art Eatman]

After five ARs and a dozen years of reading posts about them, I figure that any of them will work: Stipulating proper maintenance, mags/ammo, lubrication and general cleanliness.

 

[offroader1006]

I think your reservations on both the Arsenal and Piston AR are founded on internet hear-say and nothing factual.

I have an Adams Arms AR15, and my buddy has has an AK-74 with about the same round count. Neither has had any problems. My AR has no signs of carrier tilt. The piston BCG uses the same extractor as the DI, so there's no problem there.

If you really are worried about what could go wrong, get a complete piston AR that comes with a warranty. Suger SR556, S&W PSX, LMT, POF, H&K, Sig, etc.

Get whichever you like more for the money you are willing to spend. I would avoid Robinson Arms for the proprietary parts alone.

 

[henschman]

I will join the chorus saying you also need to consider a QUALITY direct impingement AR. By quality I mean as close to the mil specs as possible. Your friend's Bushmaster is not in this category, so don't judge all AR's by it. One thing you for sure want if you plan on shooting a lot of steel case ammo is a chrome lined barrel, which Bushmasters don't have. Any of the high quality mil spec AR's will have this. I'd say look at Colt, BCM, Palmetto State Armory, and maybe CMMG. As long as you keep the bolt real wet, a DI AR will do just fine.

I would say get either a high quality DI AR, or an AK like the Arsenal... depending on whether you place more of a premium on reliability or accuracy. Or hell, for the price of that XCR, get BOTH!!!

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

One thing you for sure want if you plan on shooting a lot of steel case ammo is a chrome lined barrel, which Bushmasters don't have.

Yes they do.

 

[Z-Michigan]

One thing you for sure want if you plan on shooting a lot of steel case ammo is a chrome lined barrel, which Bushmasters don't have.

Uh, actually most Bushmasters DO have chrome-lined barrels, and they were doing 4150 steel before many people cared. Apart from that, though, they aren't the best and you can do better for about the same money, or sometimes less. I would agree with Colt and BCM. PSA looks good so far but is too new to be sure. CMMG has proven inconsistent. I would add LMT and Daniel Defense to the list of top choices.

 

[ny32182]

I think the XCR design is the best to ever hit the market (I sometimes wish a different company actually produced it) but due to the proprietary nature I would not have it as a first or only autoloading rifle, which seems to be the goal for most of the SHTFers. For first/only, I too would go with the good quality DI AR due to the plethora of parts and ease of changing out just about any of said parts.

 

[Inebriated]

I say the Arsenal. Or hell, even your own Saiga conversion. You said you like AK ergonomics, so get the AK. It's reliable, more accurate than most people think, and you like the ergos. Also, the thinner barrel is pretty much a non-issue on a semi. It's more of a plus, if you ask me.

 

[G.barnes]

If your looking at an ak why aren't you looking at an slr 95. It has a milled reciever instead of stamped and can be had for around 750. That's in line with a cheap ar like a dpms oracle without a chrome barrel or bore. The slr 95 will eat up all the steel cased ammo you can run through it. Plus you can get 7.62 x 39 steel case easier and cheaper than steel .223 case all the war stricken countries are running aks.

 

[IndianaBoy]

To be honest, I seen my friends Bushmaster choke brass ammo after shooting wolf. I seen how dirty it gets after shooting milsurplus.
So I know that AR has to be babied.

My experience doesn't mirror yours. But I build my ARs using quality components and I pay attention to the details that matter.


Perhaps you should base your opinion of ARs on something a little higher quality than a Bushmaster, or use a statistical sample set greater than one. Even if most Bushmasters are fine, your friends might have an issue. Or he doesn't keep it properly lubed. This doesn't mean I think you need to run out and buy the most expensive AR available. But little things like making sure that you have a chromed bore and chamber, with a proper 5.56 chamber, etc.. make a big difference.


There isn't a better platform for 5.56 than the AR in my opinion, and reliability is excellent in all of my rifles. And I shoot a lot of Wolf for hoser stages in 3-gun.

In my opinion the myth that ARs are unreliable is exactly that.


Edit: Also, I saw a comment above that mentioned keeping the bolt 'real wet'. In my experience, excessive lube will attract excessive carbon... and create a gunky slurry that would choke any gun. A properly lubed AR bolt isn't drenched in oil. You need a little on the lugs, a drop on the bearing surface with the carrier, a drop on the gas rings, and a drop on the cam pin. Put some on the bearing surface of the outside of the carrier (where it rides in the upper) and you are ready to go.

 

[Girodin]

why aren't you looking at an slr 95. It has a milled reciever instead of stamped and can be had for around 750.

Maybe he doesn't want the added weight of the milled receiver with no corresponding functional benefit?

Plus you can get 7.62 x 39 steel case easier and cheaper than steel .223 case all the war stricken countries are running aks.

The last time I checked the usual online places .223 steel case was cheaper than x39.

 

[rbernie]

Merged duplicate threads.

 

[JustinJ]

Why not a Sig556? The kinks appear to have been worked out. I'd go with the patrol version as they are less front heavy. Supposedly one is coming out with a removable barrel.

 

[I_AM_LEGEND]

Gecko45, you're back!!! lol

if you want a setup for SHTF, get a quality AR in 5.56 or an AK in 7.62, a quality sidearm in 9mm or 45, and lots of mags, ammo and training....

if you need a second long arm, its a .22lr to take small game.

you're goal should be to keep a low profile and survive, not get in as many firefights as possible.