Your papers,please. (?)

[Sindawe]

DEB DAVIS LIKES to commute to work by public bus. She uses the time to read, crochet or pay bills. It's her quiet time. What with the high price of gas, she saves money, too: a week's worth of gas money gets her a month's worth of bus rides.

Deborah Davis defends freedom at home while her son serves abroad in Iraq.
The bus she rides crosses the property of the Denver Federal Center, a collection of government offices such as the Veterans Administration, the U.S. Geological Survey, and part of the National Archives. The Denver Federal Center is not a high security area: it's not Area 51 or NORAD.

On her first day commuting to work by bus, the bus stopped at the gates of the Denver Federal Center. A security guard got on and demanded that all of the passengers on this public bus produce ID. She was surprised by the demand of the man in uniform, but she complied: it would have meant a walk of several miles if she hadn't. Her ID was not taken and compared to any "no-ride" list. The guard barely glanced at it.

When she got home, what had happened on the bus began to bother her. 'This is not a police state or communist Russia', she thought. From her 8th grade Civics class she knew there is no law requiring her, as an American citizen, to carry ID or any papers, much less show them to anyone on a public bus.

She decided she would no longer show her ID on the bus.

Continues at: http://www.papersplease.org/davis/index.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I dunno about this one. I know the Fed Center is .gov property, but what is not clear from the site is if her job is ON the property, or if her bus just happend to cross it.

Thoughts?

 

[Old Dog]

Showing ID to access a federal installation is nothing new. Those who live around military bases know that when public transit goes aboard the bases, everyone onboard must display ID. It's a simple security measure, and has zilch to do with a "police state" mentality. Here's simply another case of a misguided person seeking her 15 minutes of fame ...

 

[R.H. Lee]

I don't know what she's complaining about. These are dangerous times that demand we know who everybody is. The war on terra and all that ya know......

 

[pax]

Old Dog ~

What potential crime or terrorist event would showing ID prevent?

Could a terrorist falsify an ID?

Was anyone keeping a list of the names of people who rode the bus?

Was there a list of people prohibited to enter the facility, against which names were checked?

The answers to these questions should tell you something about what was, and what was not, being accomplished by the ID check.

pax

 

[Old Dog]

Pax, I totally disagree. Are you suggesting that public transportation be allowed to access any federal installation without even cursory ID checks? Look, these ID checks won't stop a determined criminal or terrorist, but they're simply an easy first step in the series of security measures. If someone can't be troubled to display a photo ID when passing through a federal installation, that's not a display of principle, it's a display of stupidity.

Was anyone keeping a list of the names of people who rode the bus?

Was there a list of people prohibited to enter the facility, against which names were checked?

It's basically a check to to ensure there's no one aboard the bus who might look a little hinky. Believe me, security at any federal center or military base not only has lists of prohibited people, but photos when possible, too ...

 

[pax]

Old Dog ~

You could not disagree with what I said, because I made no argument. I simply asked a pointed question.

Let me ask again: exactly what crime would showing an ID prevent?

pax

 

[KCMO]

Questions:
#1 Why is a public transport bus traveling through a federal installation when the end-destination is obviously not a federal installation?

#2 I assume the law is a bit muddy here;
It’s not her fault that this bus passes through a federal installation.
Can someone please explain what rights an American citizen loses when traveling through a federal installation?

#3 When I was in the U.S.N. we made some awesome fake-ID's (for beer acquisition purposes only ).
What good does checking ID's do?

 

[Henry Bowman]

Let me ask again: exactly what crime would showing an ID prevent?

I think Old Dog answered your question: None.

What it does is give them a chance to scrutinize you and for you to show nervousness that might arouse some unspecified suspicion.


Take a different bus that doen't have this unnecessary delay.

 

[rick_reno]

This will get easier once she has been "chipped". She won't have to show ID, they should be able to read her ID from outside the bus and speed this process up. It'll make us all safer and if our President - the greatest one of our time - doesn't have to worry about who is on that bus he can concentrate on catching Bin Laden.

 

[Old Dog]

You could not disagree with what I said, because I made no argument. I simply asked a pointed question

(emphasis mine) Aw, c'mon now, Pax ... you were clearly trying to make a point with your questions, and I responded to the tone of your post. I know what you were saying, and you know what I was saying; no need for semantic games. You also asked:

Let me ask again: exactly what crime would showing an ID prevent?

And, well, I did say:

Look, these ID checks won't stop a determined criminal or terrorist, but they're simply an easy first step in the series of security measures.

This Davis woman's situation is in no way an abrogation of her rights as a citizen of the United States. If you think a five second check of your photo ID constitutes "an American citizen losing rights" ... when one is voluntarily passing through a federal installation, I'm not sure what anyone could tell you to sway your opinion.

For cryin' out loud, just take the express bus!

 

[grimjaw]

This will get easier once she has been "chipped". She won't have to show ID, they should be able to read her ID from outside the bus and speed this process up. It'll make us all safer and if our President - the greatest one of our time - doesn't have to worry about who is on that bus he can concentrate on catching Bin Laden.

I'm not sure if this is intended as sarcasm or not.

As for the Denver Federal Center, I've never been there so I don't know.

This website says it's a 'secured Federal facility', and I would expect to be challenged for identification at the entry point, whether or not it's justified or legal. If it's an entry gate for vehicles, it would probably also state that you could be searched at any time, yadda yadda yadda, like most federal or military installations.

Do they check everyone's ID that runs that route, or just the people on the bus? If they check every vehicle passing through, then it seems like someone didn't know that and thought it was unlawful. Was it random ID inspection? Checking identification as a security measure hardly seems secure (reference 9/11), and random identification checks is completely useless. I can see where legal eagles would watch for things like profiling at such a checkpoint. My federal ID badge has to be visible at all times while I'm at work (Department of Energy facility), and to work there I implicity agree that my person or vehicle can be searched at any time security feels that it's warranted. If someone challenged me for ID and I didn't show it, I'd most likely be arrested. I can even be challenged by other employees to show my identification if it's not present; we are encouraged to do so in training.

If she didn't want to show ID to enter, she should have been given the option to get off the bus and leave. If she was given the option and didn't take it, well, that would probably make me a cranky federally contracted security checkpoint person, too. If she wasn't given the option to leave, I believe she should have that right, and it was an oversight on the part of security. I know at the military base I used to work at (post 9/11), if I didn't have ID, I could turn around and leave to go get it.

I think, however, the article was written by a lawyer or mouthpiece for a movement, and it wouldn't mention anything like the above because it would hurt the case or movement.

jmm

 

[pax]

Old Dog ~

Pretend for a moment that it's really a question.

Look, these ID checks won't stop a determined criminal or terrorist, but they're simply an easy first step in the series of security measures.

If it's a first step, you've got to believe that the ID check does something. So let me ask again: what, exactly, does a simple ID check accomplish?

If it's a first step, where's the next one -- and what does the first step accomplish by itself, in the absence of another one?

pax

 

[Old Dog]

Pax, I know you know the answer to that one ... You don't really need someone such as me (who happens to have spent more than a few years involved in security of government installations) to tell you that there is a continuum of security measures.

what, exactly, does a simple ID check accomplish?

As noted before, routine ID checks let regular passengers know that they're being let through the installation as a courtesy; the ID checks will weed out the amateurs (remember the guy who got nailed at the Port Angeles ferry terminal with a trunkload of high explosives?) ... Security personnel (such as the folks we have guarding our nuclear submarine base up here), as I'm sure you well know, are typically observant, and believe me, they are quite good at picking out strangers who are trying to access areas they should not be accessing.

If it's a first step, where's the next one -- and what does the first step accomplish by itself, in the absence of another one?

The first step, in and of itself, is relying on the memory and the intuition of the security personnel checking the IDs ... The next steps are cameras, sign-in logs, baggage/belongings/vehicle inspections ... I'm sure someone shortly will proclaim that the ID checks (being as IDs can be counterfeited) is simply a "feel-good" measure to provide the "illusion" of security. Go for it. Those in the security business understand that the full spectrum of security measures begin simply.

 

[Brick]

If she's voluntarily boarding a bus and entering an establishment where ID could be checked, I don't see anything wrong as long as it's voluntary.

Dudes, come on. ID is hokey. What if I'm jogging and a cop screeches tires and draws to demand ID because I may be a "terrorist" and I don't have ID?

In this lovely state of Kalisickifornia, you must have ID on you. But I rarely carry ID with me...DL is in the car, and the ID is in the wallet. But the wallet usually comes with me only when I might make a purchase. Otherwise, it's in the car too.

And what if I refuse to identify myself?

 

[pax]

Old Dog ~

Thanks.

As noted before, routine ID checks let regular passengers know that they're being let through the installation as a courtesy;

So the purpose is to, well, intimidate, the passengers. And you think of that as a good thing.

the ID checks will weed out the amateurs (remember the guy who got nailed at the Port Angeles ferry terminal with a trunkload of high explosives?) ...

Stopping stupid criminals is a worthwhile endeavor, though I'd like to point out here that stopping stupid people doesn't usually take any special effort. (Remember that guy who got nailed at the Port Angeles ferry terminal...?)

Security personnel (such as the folks we have guarding our nuclear submarine base up here), as I'm sure you well know, are typically observant, and believe me, they are quite good at picking out strangers who are trying to access areas they should not be accessing.

And they cannot do that without glancing at a driver's license?

pax

 

[Old Dog]

So the purpose is to, well, intimidate, the passengers. And you think of that as a good thing.

Oh, for heaven's sake, no ... but if you want to consider getting asked for an ID intimidation, well ...

And they cannot do that without glancing at a driver's license?

Nope. Not these days, regrettably.

And I actually have fond memories of the days when many of our military bases were open to the public, and Joe Taxpayer could come aboard and look at all the pretty airplanes and ships, even snapping a few pics with his Kodak Instamatic. (As an aside, we had a lot more females in our clubs in those days ...) And I well remember the days before metal detectors and armed security at the doors of our federal buildings. It's a different world.

 

[pax]

Old Dog ~

Yep, I do consider that it's an attempt at intimidation. The thought apparently is (and I'm paraphrasing you here, so please correct me if I'm wrong!), that those who are planning or plotting something will act hinky when asked for ID at the gate, and thus set off the guard's spidey-sense and justify further intrusions into the citizen's private world.

Unspoken is the assumption that only guilty people will act uncomfortable or unhappy or guilty in such a circumstance.

Since asking for ID accomplishes nothing in and of itself, it's an attempt to intimidate stupid guilty people into acting like it -- a bluff.

I'm not quite old enough to join you in missing the good old days (37 is not old, no matter what my children say!). But I am old enough to have observed that even though government rules might change, human nature never has.

pax

 

[Old Dog]

Yep, I do consider that it's an attempt at intimidation.

Okay. But let's not forget, that if you're not entering a federal installation voluntarily, you're probably being taken in wearing handcuffs ... You have the choice to not display ID, and you have the choice to not access the installation ... As far as the rest of your remarks, yes, that's all part of the process.

But, just to show you where my heart is ... My military retirement ceremony is off-base, so as not to trouble any of my civilian guests (believe it or not, many of my friends are actual real live civilians) to have to show ID at the gate, get checked off a list and be otherwise intimidated ...

 

[KriegHund]

The guard called in federal cops, and she was arrested and charged with federal criminal misdemeanors after refusing to show ID on demand.

WHAT!?!?!?!

That angers me greatly. I hope this woman wins and sues the heck outta whoevers at fualt for this.

 

[pax]

Old Dog ~

No way! Real, honest-to-Vishnu civilians? That's ... strange.

Seriously, thanks for your service. And for the thought provoking conversation.

pax

 

[grimjaw]

RE: intimidation, it has been my experience with most security details (I have not been one myself but have worked with several) that they *want* to be intimidating and in control.

routine ID checks let regular passengers know that they're being let through the installation as a courtesy

You go where I let you. I am in control. If security isn't in control, who is? Not trying to say it's a bad thing, Old Dog, but that's what I see, and had explained to me. It's part of the job. I would say that's the impression given off by security, police, military, etc, and I understand the reasoning behind it.

If someone in security is demanding my identification and I wasn't aware that I was doing anything wrong or that I was entering a facility where it was required, that would be intimidating.

No?

I still think the lady knew, though, and I don't think she was intimidated. She was on her cell phone talking when the 2nd or 3rd officer showed up.

RE: guilt, I have alot of that left over from my mother, so I always look guilty, even when I have my ID.

jmm

 

[Flyboy]

Looks like it's time for a quick grammar lesson:

In German, all nouns are capitalized, not just proper nouns. For example, "Guten Abend, Herr Offizer. Meine Papieren sind hier in Ordnung."

(Translation: "Good evening, Mr. Officer. My papers are here and in order.")

I hope this is of service; I'd hate for people to look illiterate when they're writing their confessions.

 

[Old Dog]

You guys kill me sometimes, what with things such as this oh-so-subtle comparison of Nazi Germany to a requirement to show photo ID for access a U.S. federal installation ... Y'all need to get out more.

 

[Standing Wolf]

It's a simple security measure, and has zilch to do with a "police state" mentality.

It's a simple measure, all right, but has nothing to do with genuine security. Checking driving licenses does nothing to prevent crime, especially since fakes are so cheap and readily available. There's no realistic chance the person checking licenses is going to remember the name of someone who later turns out to be a criminal. What's really going on is fake security or ritual security: the appearance of efforts to secure an area.

I believe government is "checking" just because it can, just to remind the commoners it's decided it has power to toss out the Fourth Amendment.

I'd be more inclined to call it statist parasitism than Nazi parasitism; realistically speaking, however, parasites are parasites.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

What I hate about security (ID checks, metal detectors, searches, etc) is the assumption that I'm a criminal. They basically demand for me to prove that I'm not a threat.

It doesn't matter what's in my pockets. It could be anything from a bit of lint to an atomic bomb. Either way, nobody is going to get hurt. You see, I'm not a murderer. No matter what's in my pockets, I'mnot going to use it to hurt people. It pisses me off that they think I would, and that I must be "made safe" by searches, ID checks, and so forth.

It oughta be the other way around. If they wanna search me, they need to show some particular reason why I'm a threat first.

What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"???