YouTupe video from CCW class.

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Owen Sparks

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I took an 8 hour concealed carry class hosted by a local police department. Training is not necessary in my state to get a permit but is offered as an option. The benefit is that with the training my permit will be recognized by other states that do require training so basically it means that I can carry in a much larger number of states. This could be a big deal if I travel. But to get to the point; this video was shown as a good example of an armed citizen defending himself and others during an armed robbery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

Notice how he uses concealment to draw without being noticed by the bad guy then he does not stop shooting until the bad guy is outside and down. He then covers him until help arrives. Apparently the bad guy collapsed right outside the glass door and was still moving and very much a threat. Notice that the mom and little girl seek cover behind the desk.
 
To me, this is frighteningly close to a bad situation. The clerk, although acting right, put 3 rounds in EXTREMELY close proximity to that mother and daughter. Not saying either was at fault, but sure would have liked to think the Mother would be moving away from the trouble and the Clerk would be getting a "clear and safe" path to the BG.

In the end, everyone but the BG turn out just fine.
 
This may be a training film for a guy who is going to be a armed guard at some office but I don't see what it has to do with the average citizen getting a CCW---not appropiate type movie
 
Apparantly the bad guy was also pointing his pistol at the mother and daughter and the man behind the counter felt compelled to act.
 
HOWARD J said:
This may be a training film for a guy who is going to be a armed guard at some office but I don't see what it has to do with the average citizen getting a CCW---not appropiate type movie
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I see the disconnect.

The shooter was a clerk, going about his own business, when he observes an armed robber threatening a mother and child as well as the desk clerk behind the counter. There is no audio, but I would think that there was at least an implied threat with the demand of money.

It is very difficult to second guess what his perception was at the time he decided that the threat and danger was enough to take action, and I'm sure that was one of the questions that was asked of him by the responding officers.

I don't think this is being used as an example of when you have to use deadly force as much as it is when you may use it and as a teaching point of the thought process and justification needed to act.

Neec0 said:
put 3 rounds in EXTREMELY close proximity to that mother and daughter

....the Clerk would be getting a "clear and safe" path to the BG.
Click to expand...
These kind of situations seldom lend themselves to ideal lanes of fire...bear in mind that the first shot was well clear of the bystanders and only came close to them as the suspect moved in their direction.

This is another reason to practice precise shot placement when practicing for defensive use of your gun. While the ability to place shots into a 3" circle in practice would likely be adequate, accepting the ability to shoot into an 8" circle might not be
 
This film is great--good guy wins.
NOW: what i f the good guy shot the mother or baby by accident.
What if the bad guy returned fire & shot the good guy or the mother or baby.
Lawsuits would be flying everywhere--or don't they have them where this took place ???
Some jurys frown on heros
Unless you are being paid to protect a business--sometimes it is prudent to keep your nose out of playing hero

We don't know how the police presented this movie to the CCW students---without knowing that we are doing a lot of guessing about what they said.
BTW: I hope this company has insurance that covers bad shootings by their employees
 
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The shooter in the video has posted elsewhere about the proximity of the bystander and baby, saying, in short: It wasn't as close at it appears on video; the angle at which the video was shot makes it appear as if the mother and child were much closer to the shots than they actually were.

He also mentioned that he used a Glock 27, and even stated what brand of ammunition he used, and mentioned details concerning the villain's wounds and conviction in court. Of course I don't now remember those details...
 
Thankfully it did not happen that way Howard.

In my own opinion anytime a guy comes in with a gun hell bent on felonious intentions I for one will consider him an extremely dangerous man and will think my life is in extreme danger of termination and being a hero or cowboy is not going to be on my thought patterns but what will be is ending that immediate threat asap.
 
Mikhail is correct, IMHO. I too recall some discussion elsewhere about the camera narrowing the angle.

But reality is not well reflected on the square range. :uhoh:

"YouTupe" = old guys (like me :D) showing off their toupees. :eek:
 
HOWARD J said:
Some jurys frown on heros
Unless you are being paid to protect a business--sometimes it is prudent to keep your nose out of playing hero
Click to expand...

How do you know he was being a hero? This happened at a Super 8 Motel. Lots of motels tend to be locally and family owned and operated. He may have been protecting his life and the source of his family's livelihood.

I'm just saying there's usually more than meets the eye in these situations.

ETA: I don't know anymore than what I see in the video but who is the woman with the child? His wife, girlfriend, some guest? Those factors may have had an influence on the decisions. Does anyone know more?
 
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Well then it appears that he was protecting a business & may have had insurancew to cover a bad shooting---who knows.
Usually we are given so little info we don't know what is going on.
When the cops showed this video to a group of people going for a CCW---we don't know what the cops said re this shooting--as you can see this looks more like training a armed rent-a-cop than training folks in a general CCW class. If this film was shown to a CPL class in S/E MI--someone would get their *** kicked.
 
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Since Owen Sparks attended the training, I'm sure he'll be back to fill us in

HOWARD J said:
looks more like training a armed rent-a-cop than training folks in a general CCW class.
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You've made reference to this a couple of time and I'm just not seeing it...perhaps training for security officers are different in your area...this looks very much like something I would expect at more advanced training for a serious CCW class
 
We don't have advanced CCW training classes in S/E MI----
8 hours of baloney--nothing fancy they don't train owners of Motels to shoot people.
You have to go somewhere else for that.
Sorry
 
Not sure why we are criticizing a "good shoot" where the defender used cover brilliantly, and had three hits on target. I am not an LEO or a professional in any manner, but shucks, it looks like the guy knew how to use that gun and did a good job in a scary situation. Just my two cents.
 
more advanced training for a serious CCW class
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Isn't the same as:
We don't have advanced CCW training classes...8 hours of baloney--nothing fancy
Click to expand...

I'm referring to a class, with more advanced techniques, that a serious CCW user might want to attend to better prepare themselves... should they be in a bad situation
 
We don't have any serious training CCW/CPL classes in S/E MI
You get 6 hours of talking to --includes how not to get sued if you have to defend yourself.
2 hours of range time.
$105 fee + $15 fingerprints + $20 small photos + up to $150 for classes
You are allowed to defend yourself on the street--stand your ground.
The courts around here do not like you shooting people that are holding up stores---if you are not politically correct you can get yourself in a lot of trouble. This is Wayne County, MI
Enjoy your advanced training.
HJ
PS:I have enjoyed carrying for about 60 years
PPS: $105 + $15 every 4-5 years for renewl
 
What the clerk did looked like standard CCW stuff to me, nothing advanced. Many CCW classes are not hands-on but the how-to and what-to-do's are usually talked about, at least in MN. Also, distance is extremely difficult to judge on film so the clerk may have had ample distance between the child and point of aim. If not the kid would likely have a sun burn from the muzzle blast and be kicking and screaming.

To the OP: Thanks for posting.
 
Howard.I can somewhat understand that some in the upper power circles might not "like" you shooting someone holding up a store but just exactly where do you draw the line at protecting your one and only life??
1.The guy is coming in and exibiting deadly force.
2. I have no idea if he's is going to kill me or everyone in the room but I do know he's coming at me armed trying desperately to get a handfull of money.
3.This is an extremely dangerous situation and a lot of people are not going to wait around to see just how desperate or deadly his motives are going to be.
4.This scenario is classic reason number one why we SHOULD be allowed as law abiding citizens to carry and defend ourselves from cretins such as this guy.
 
Just remember one thing boys & girls---when you pull that trigger to protect the $50 or so bucks in the register--pray that you never get yourself into a civil lawsuit---your life will be a living hell for years to come.
Catch you later,
HJ
 
I paid $75 for 8 hours. 4 hours of classroom and 4 hours at the range where we fired close to 200 rounds.
 
You can read the shooter's words about the incident here, with an update:
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/carry-defensive-scenarios/6188-actual-shooting.html

Items of interest plucked from his comments:
A confrontation will be extremely quick and extremely violent: I teach this in my concealed carry class, but never really thought about it. From the time that the Robber walked in and pulled his gun, to the point where he was lying on the pavement was 13 seconds. The shooting portion from when my gun cleared the holster to him on the ground was under 3 seconds (I got these times from the time recorder on the security camera video) ...

You must remain alert, ALWAYS: I was unprepared for this...

I now know that I don't want any type of retention strap on my firearm. I had one during this incident...

[Holster] I was using a cheapie nylon, but will now be upgrading to a Galco retention style...

Point shooting: As I stated before, everything happend so fast. I didn't use the sights. I used muscle memmory and point shooting...
Click to expand...
[from the update]

Robber got 7 years and had on his juvenile record armed robbery and GTA.
 
Two words Howard...Castle Doctrine.
Several states have the law and for good reason.
Not sure about the state you live in.
 
It appears that this guy is a CCW instructor
Is he hired by Motel ( whatever) to protect the property ?
It appears he is behind the counter when he is shooting.
I also appears that he is a lot more qualified to handle a gun than the average average CCW holder
Just wondering ???
 
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