Thanks. I guess it should have been obvious. Just never saw the back end of a fired round.They are the same rounds.. Front and rear view. The top round in each picture is the same .380. The bottom round in each picture is the same 9mm.
I did a little test a few days ago. These are both Federal Hydra-shoks.
The upper round is a 90 grain .380 from a Kahr CW.380.The lower a 124 grain 9mm from a Kahr CW9.
Both were fired into gallon plastic milk jugs filled with water from about 20 feet.
The 380 stopped in the first milk jug. The 9 mm exited the first milk jug and stopped in the second.
I know this is not relative to anything as far as performance in a SD situation, but I still found it an interesting comparison.
You can draw your own conclusions if there are any to be made.
My wife carries the .380 with FMJs and I carry the 9mm with JHPs nuff sed.
Sorry. 380's and to a large extent 32's came into their own for police and military use not because of lesser penetration, but because blow back pistols were a lot cheaper to manufacture than locked breach guns like the Mauser, the Luger or the Styer pistols. This happened mostly in the new countries that cropped up after World War I that lacked money - Yugoslavia, Checzkoslavia, and a couple of others.I cannot prove but personally believe the reason .380 was popular in Europe for so long pre and post war was precisely due to its lesser penetration. In those days, hollow points were not available and fmj ruled. The European military round was the 9mm fmj which notoriously over-penetrated especially for use in a civilian, urban environment. .380 fmj provided that sweet spot of enough penetration with much less over-penetration compared to 9mm. Some testing of .380 fmj shows over-penetration but some shows deep but not excessive penetration. Even when it has over-penetrated it has largely spent its energy compared to more powerful rounds. Some tests show fmj flat-nosed .380 at standard pressure to have a tendency to tumble which limits over-penetration a bit. I’m not arguing against hollow points but there is an old observation that .380 power can either provide penetration or expansion but not very well provide both so we have to choose which we prefer. Short 2.75” barrels giving up 1/2 to a full inch over traditional .380 barrels compound the problem of hollow point expansion and penetration but actually somewhat limit over-penetration of fmj.
That makes sense and you may well be right but I was not thinking of police and military use but, rather, civilian use. As I said, I am merely speculating and make no claim to expertise.Sorry. 380's and to a large extent 32's came into their own for police and military use not because...
On a human target, facing squarely like that silhouette target the the range, 4-8" might well be the case. However, a big bad guy might not be squarely facing you, or have both his arms extended holding a pistol in front of his upper torso as well.Not likely they are using .380 FMJs or am I wrong? More likely 357 Mag, 41 Mag, 44 Mag and so forth. Also the side-on heart shot on a big buck requires a lot of penetration to get to the intended target. How much penetration does a heart shot require on a human, 4-8 inches if that much?
I often rely on an Israeli surplus Beretta 84F. While I keep it loaded with hot Underwood XTP's, I wouldn't feel bad about using good quality FMJ'S.
380 was the WWII service pistol cartridge for Italy. It also was used to assassinate an Israeli Prime Minister and Archduke Ferdinand. It is more capable than many American shooters give it credit for.
Back when .32s and .380s were popular in Europe and here for that matter people were smaller, especially thinner. The human race has gotten bigger in the last 150 years. .38's worked pretty well here in the US until Elmer, Jeff, and Clint came along and created the demand for the Magnums.
Now days even 9mms and .38s are marginal to some.
IMO, people that carry FMJ rounds in their SD or CCW handgun are just being cheapskates.
Exactly, according to this study, not much difference between .380 and 9mm for SD in the real world:
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
Apparently perps don't care about gel tests or chrono readings. I got over magnumitis a long time ago both in CCW and hunting rifles.
A possible explanation:Thank you !
Wow. This is quite some reading. Copying some of the data and highlighting what stood out to me:
.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%
9mm Luger
# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%
.45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%
So, to me, the most important stat is highlighted in red, as it represents unsuccessful defense. Unsurprisingly, the .380 has higher percentage than .45 or 9mm. Surprisingly, it's actually a very small difference - about 13% in relative terms, or 2% in absolute terms vs .45. (16% vs 14%)
The most surprising stat is in green - out of three calibers, .380 has the highest % of one stop shots. Not sure why, but it's interesting to know.
This makes me feel much better about carrying .380.
Perhaps not just more practice, but also more accurate placement due to shootability. The more modern subcompacts probably do not fit this explanation so well having tiny grip profiles and very light weight, but some old classic European and American locked breech .380s certainly might.A possible explanation:
.380 pistols have less recoil, so owners practice more.
The magic "one-shot-drop" bullet only works if it hits the target....
Thank you !
Wow. This is quite some reading. Copying some of the data and highlighting what stood out to me:
.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%
9mm Luger
# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%
.45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%
So, to me, the most important stat is highlighted in red, as it represents unsuccessful defense. Unsurprisingly, the .380 has higher percentage than .45 or 9mm. Surprisingly, it's actually a very small difference - about 13% in relative terms, or 2% in absolute terms vs .45. (16% vs 14%)
The most surprising stat is in green - out of three calibers, .380 has the highest % of one stop shots. Not sure why, but it's interesting to know.
This makes me feel much better about carrying .380.
It may be true; but I doubt it. As seen in the online forums, most enthusiasts , and budding enthusiasts, are steered toward 9x19.owners practice more
There are too many unaccounted for variables in that data.A possible explanation:
.380 pistols have less recoil, so owners practice more.
The magic "one-shot-drop" bullet only works if it hits the target....
IMO, people that carry FMJ rounds in their SD or CCW handgun are just being cheapskates.