david58
Member
When I undergo a background check and fill out the papers to purchase a firearm, is there a record of the firearm tied to that background check? What if I purchase multiple guns? Asking for a friend.
The only information about the firearm that is entered in the system is the type of firearm (i.e. rifle, handgun, etc.) nothing about the make, model, SN, or caliber and the records aren't kept for more than a short time.
The Form 4473 is kept on file by the dealer.
As far as multiple guns; if you purchase two or more handguns within any 5 (or 7, I can't remember) day period the dealer sends a Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers form to local law enforcement.
The only information about the firearm that is entered in the system is the type of firearm (i.e. rifle, handgun, etc.) nothing about the make, model, SN, or caliber and the records aren't kept for more than a short time.
The Form 4473 is kept on file by the dealer.
As far as multiple guns; if you purchase two or more handguns at one time or during any five consecutive business days the dealer sends a Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers form to local law enforcement.
This true as far as it goes. You're overlooking the fact that the details of the gun are entered in the dealer's "bound book," which is available for inspection by the ATF (and is sent to the ATF when the dealer goes out of business).The only information about the firearm that is entered in the system is the type of firearm (i.e. rifle, handgun, etc.) nothing about the make, model, SN, or caliber and the records aren't kept for more than a short time.
The Form 4473 is kept on file by the dealer.
I'm not overlooking it at all as I am one of the people responsible for maintaining our "bound book". The OP's question was if there is a record of the firearm tied to the background check.This true as far as it goes. You're overlooking the fact that the details of the gun are entered in the dealer's "bound book," which is available for inspection by the ATF (and is sent to the ATF when the dealer goes out of business).
federal law explicitly prohibits federal law enforcement agencies from: (1) using dealers’ records of sales to establish a centralized system for the registration of firearms, firearm owners, or firearm transactions; or (2) requiring dealers’ records of sales to be recorded in, or transferred to a centralized facility.16 As a result, with very limited exceptions, records of firearm sales are not maintained at the federal level.
That I can't answer for you as we still use paper 4473sIn the old days you are right. I have a question about how it works today with the digital 4473.
A licensee can get a variance to store his records digitally. It's up to the dealer how he stores those records.It sounds like you currently work at an FFL.
In the old days you are right. I have a question about how it works today with the digital 4473.
I don't like that ONE SINGLE BIT.
Can you clue us in on how and where those are stored, "cloud", local servers, off line storage.
It seems to me that the OP is asking whether a paper trail is generated when he buys a gun. There certainly is, at the dealer level, and it's accessible by the ATF as part of a criminal investigation.No 4473 or bound book information is sent to or stored by ATF until the dealer goes out of business.
When the dealer runs the background check with FBI NICS, he will be given an NTN or NICS Transaction Number along with the status of proceed/delay/denied. He records that information on the Form 4473. As noted above, the only information given to the FBI NICS regarding that firearm is Handgun/Long Gun/Other. Thats it.When I undergo a background check and fill out the papers to purchase a firearm, is there a record of the firearm tied to that background check?
FBI NICS isn't told how many guns you are buying, just whether the transaction includes Handgun/Long Gun/Other.What if I purchase multiple guns?
Only if its a "proceed".NM is (at least at present) a non-POC State. So, the NICS info 'expires' the day it's queried.
What if one then subsequently sells the firearm, using an FFL for the background check and transfer. Does the sale go into the bound book?It seems to me that the OP is asking whether a paper trail is generated when he buys a gun. There certainly is, at the dealer level, and it's accessible by the ATF as part of a criminal investigation.
The FFL does a background check on buyers, not sellers.What if one then subsequently sells the firearm, using an FFL for the background check and transfer. Does the sale go into the bound book?
Yes.What if one then subsequently sells the firearm, using an FFL for the background check and transfer. Does the sale go into the bound book?
thank you!Yes.
This is referred to as a "private party transfer" on the Form 4473 Que 8.
The buyer and seller meet at an FFL, if the buyer decides he wants the gun he completes and signs the Form 4473.
The dealer runs the NICS check, if the NICS is a proceed, buyer gets the gun, dealer records the acquisition from the seller (name and address) in his bound book along with the firearm information and showing a disposition to the buyer.
But if the buyer is denied, the dealer doesn't record anything in his bound book and files the Form 4473 as required. Seller goes home with his gun.
A licensee can get a variance to store his records digitally. It's up to the dealer how he stores those records.
No 4473 or bound book information is sent to or stored by ATF until the dealer goes out of business.
It seems to me that the OP is asking whether a paper trail is generated when he buys a gun. There certainly is, at the dealer level, and it's accessible by the ATF as part of a criminal investigation.
We have the same concerns. All of ours are on paper. There is a law that prohibits the gummint from keeping any kind of database on oners and their guns but there are two problems with that:What I was worried about was the "cloud" storage. I like the idea of the records being on paper and in bankers boxes then on a computer somewhere on the "cloud".
Currently once the government gets a 4473, they are allowed to scan it and store it digitally, but not in a searchable form. That is explicitly forbidden. Awhile back the BATF was caught trying to make a searchable database. They were chastised, their funding was cut and they were told to follow the law going forward. Even if they get 4473s in searchable form from an FFL, they are not allowed to consolidate that information--it has to remain separate.There is no guidelines on how that digital 4473 is stored. I can half see that, but working in the .gov I can also see requirements for off site backups, or "cloud" storage.
What I was worried about was the "cloud" storage. I like the idea of the records being on paper and in bankers boxes then on a computer somewhere on the "cloud".
Here's substantiation.2. I've heard that, on rare occasions, govt agencies have ignored various laws and acted as they wished. (unsubstantiated rumor, mind you. )
As a datum point only partially germane to this topic, about what percentage of your NICS contacts are not a Proceed? From the reported numbers, it looks like it's well north of 80%, but sieving through the remainder to get a percentage of Delay/Deny per the overall is more than some tedious.Delays will stay in the system until they update to a proceed (then as you note get deleted) or deny.
Denied transactions stay there forever.
About 80% of my NICS checks result in an immediate Proceed.As a datum point only partially germane to this topic, about what percentage of your NICS contacts are not a Proceed? From the reported numbers, it looks like it's well north of 80%, but sieving through the remainder to get a percentage of Delay/Deny per the overall is more than some tedious.
I'm only asking to get a general idea, not specific numbers.
Here’s a quote from that article:Currently once the government gets a 4473, they are allowed to scan it and store it digitally, but not in a searchable form. That is explicitly forbidden. Awhile back the BATF was caught trying to make a searchable database. They were chastised, their funding was cut and they were told to follow the law going forward. Even if they get 4473s in searchable form from an FFL, they are not allowed to consolidate that information--it has to remain separate.
The ATF's Nonsensical Non-Searchable Gun Databases, Explained
The trace starts with a call or fax to the National Trace Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia. A police department has recovered a gun at a crime scene that was bought at a dealer that has since gone out of business. The inquiring officer turns to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and...www.thetrace.org
We get 2 or 3 per year.My last Denial was in June of 2021.
It's true and illegal, but happens anyway.Here’s a quote from that article:
Until very recently, gun dealers were prohibited from using electronic, cloud-based computing systems unless the ATF granted them specific permission to do so. As a result, many records are on index cards, water-stained paper, or, in some instances, even toilet paper and napkins. (emphasis added)Are they really suggesting dealers are keeping their bound books on toilet paper? I know The Trace is enemy propaganda, but really?