david58
Member
When I undergo a background check and fill out the papers to purchase a firearm, is there a record of the firearm tied to that background check? What if I purchase multiple guns? Asking for a friend.
Firearm record at FFL on transfer
- Thread starter david58
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Old_Grouch
Member
The only information about the firearm that is entered in the system is the type of firearm (i.e. rifle, handgun, etc.) nothing about the make, model, SN, or caliber and the records aren't kept for more than a short time.
The Form 4473 is kept on file by the dealer.
As far as multiple guns; if you purchase two or more handguns at one time or during any five consecutive business days the dealer sends a Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers form to local law enforcement.
The Form 4473 is kept on file by the dealer.
As far as multiple guns; if you purchase two or more handguns at one time or during any five consecutive business days the dealer sends a Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers form to local law enforcement.
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That form is faxed to local LE and the ATF.
7. The report is to be submitted to:
a. Copy 1–Email, fax, or mail to the ATF National Tracing Center no later than the close of business on the day that the multiple sale or other
disposition occurs. The email address is [email protected]. The fax number is 1-877-283-0288.
Mailing address:
ATF National Services Center
National Tracing Center
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25405
b. Copy 2–To Chief Local Law Enforcement Official (CLEO). The CLEO is a local or State official designated to receive this form. If you do not
know your CLEO, contact your local ATF Office to find out. Provide Copy 2 to your CLEO.
Remington1911
Member
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It sounds like you currently work at an FFL.
In the old days you are right. I have a question about how it works today with the digital 4473.
I don't like that ONE SINGLE BIT.
Can you clue us in on how and where those are stored, "cloud", local servers, off line storage.
AlexanderA
Member
This true as far as it goes. You're overlooking the fact that the details of the gun are entered in the dealer's "bound book," which is available for inspection by the ATF (and is sent to the ATF when the dealer goes out of business).
Old_Grouch
Member
I'm not overlooking it at all as I am one of the people responsible for maintaining our "bound book". The OP's question was if there is a record of the firearm tied to the background check.
Old_Grouch
Member
That I can't answer for you as we still use paper 4473s
dogtown tom
Member
A licensee can get a variance to store his records digitally. It's up to the dealer how he stores those records.
No 4473 or bound book information is sent to or stored by ATF until the dealer goes out of business.
AlexanderA
Member
It seems to me that the OP is asking whether a paper trail is generated when he buys a gun. There certainly is, at the dealer level, and it's accessible by the ATF as part of a criminal investigation.
CapnMac
Member
It will not help OP that NM law is currently in flux on a number of levels.
NM is (at least at present) a non-POC State. So, the NICS info 'expires' the day it's queried.
The 4473, in paper or digital, is retained by the FFL only.
There's some overlap of information, but the NICS and the 4473 are separate items, generally, in Point-of-Contact States, the State Bureau of Investigation may or may not retain some or all purchase records.
NM is (at least at present) a non-POC State. So, the NICS info 'expires' the day it's queried.
The 4473, in paper or digital, is retained by the FFL only.
There's some overlap of information, but the NICS and the 4473 are separate items, generally, in Point-of-Contact States, the State Bureau of Investigation may or may not retain some or all purchase records.
dogtown tom
Member
When the dealer runs the background check with FBI NICS, he will be given an NTN or NICS Transaction Number along with the status of proceed/delay/denied. He records that information on the Form 4473. As noted above, the only information given to the FBI NICS regarding that firearm is Handgun/Long Gun/Other. Thats it.
FBI NICS isn't told how many guns you are buying, just whether the transaction includes Handgun/Long Gun/Other.
If your transaction included more than one handgun or if this transaction followed a previous purchase of a handgun from that same dealer, a
Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers is submitted by the dealer. The dealer will fill this out if your subsequent purchase was within the past five business days. These are counted as days that the dealer is open for business, not necessarily Monday-Friday. If he's open only on weekends, that period could be fifteen days.
For those dealers in California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas, an additional form is required if two or more semi-automatic rifles larger than .22 caliber (including .223/5.56 caliber) with the ability to accept a detachable magazine are sold to the same buyer with five business days: Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Certain Rifles.
dogtown tom
Member
Only if its a "proceed".
Delays will stay in the system until they update to a proceed (then as you note get deleted) or deny.
Denied transactions stay there forever.
OP
OP
david58
Member
What if one then subsequently sells the firearm, using an FFL for the background check and transfer. Does the sale go into the bound book?
The FFL does a background check on buyers, not sellers.
dogtown tom
Member
Yes.
This is referred to as a "private party transfer" on the Form 4473 Que 8.
The buyer and seller meet at an FFL, if the buyer decides he wants the gun he completes and signs the Form 4473.
The dealer runs the NICS check, if the NICS is a proceed, buyer gets the gun, dealer records the acquisition from the seller (name and address) in his bound book along with the firearm information and showing a disposition to the buyer.
But if the buyer is denied, the dealer doesn't record anything in his bound book and files the Form 4473 as required. Seller goes home with his gun.
OP
OP
david58
Member
thank you!
Remington1911
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@dogtown tom answered the question.
There is no guidelines on how that digital 4473 is stored. I can half see that, but working in the .gov I can also see requirements for off site backups, or "cloud" storage.
What I was worried about was the "cloud" storage. I like the idea of the records being on paper and in bankers boxes then on a computer somewhere on the "cloud".
I think you can see where I am drifting with that, it gets real clear when you see my tinfoil hat.
Old_Grouch
Member
We have the same concerns. All of ours are on paper. There is a law that prohibits the gummint from keeping any kind of database on oners and their guns but there are two problems with that:
1. Laws can be changed.
2. I've heard that, on rare occasions, govt agencies have ignored various laws and acted as they wished. (unsubstantiated rumor, mind you.
)
Currently once the government gets a 4473, they are allowed to scan it and store it digitally, but not in a searchable form. That is explicitly forbidden. Awhile back the BATF was caught trying to make a searchable database. They were chastised, their funding was cut and they were told to follow the law going forward. Even if they get 4473s in searchable form from an FFL, they are not allowed to consolidate that information--it has to remain separate.
The ATF's Nonsensical Non-Searchable Gun Databases, Explained
The trace starts with a call or fax to the National Trace Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia. A police department has recovered a gun at a crime scene that was bought at a dealer that has since gone out of business. The inquiring officer turns to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and...
www.thetrace.org
dogtown tom
Member
Here's substantiation.2. I've heard that, on rare occasions, govt agencies have ignored various laws and acted as they wished. (unsubstantiated rumor, mind you.
When the FBI first began the NICS system, contrary to federal law they were storing the results of all background checks. Someone squealed and Congress wasn't happy.
CapnMac
Member
As a datum point only partially germane to this topic, about what percentage of your NICS contacts are not a Proceed? From the reported numbers, it looks like it's well north of 80%, but sieving through the remainder to get a percentage of Delay/Deny per the overall is more than some tedious.
I'm only asking to get a general idea, not specific numbers.
dogtown tom
Member
About 80% of my NICS checks result in an immediate Proceed.
Of the 20% that are a Delay, about a third update to a Proceed within 15 minutes, about a third update to a Proceed before the Brady Date and about a third don't update to a Proceed until after the Brady Date or remain in Open status.
My last Denial was in June of 2021.
Remember, I'm a home based dealer who does only does Title I transfers and sells silencers. Academy/Bass Pro/Cabelas/etc will have more Denials in a week than I will in a year. Brick & mortar storefronts will have more than a few people test the system because they don't pay if they don't pass. My customers have already paid for the gun.
Elkins45
Member
Here’s a quote from that article:Currently once the government gets a 4473, they are allowed to scan it and store it digitally, but not in a searchable form. That is explicitly forbidden. Awhile back the BATF was caught trying to make a searchable database. They were chastised, their funding was cut and they were told to follow the law going forward. Even if they get 4473s in searchable form from an FFL, they are not allowed to consolidate that information--it has to remain separate.
The ATF's Nonsensical Non-Searchable Gun Databases, Explained
The trace starts with a call or fax to the National Trace Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia. A police department has recovered a gun at a crime scene that was bought at a dealer that has since gone out of business. The inquiring officer turns to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and...
Until very recently, gun dealers were prohibited from using electronic, cloud-based computing systems unless the ATF granted them specific permission to do so. As a result, many records are on index cards, water-stained paper, or, in some instances, even toilet paper and napkins. (emphasis added)
Are they really suggesting dealers are keeping their bound books on toilet paper? I know The Trace is enemy propaganda, but really?
Old_Grouch
Member
We get 2 or 3 per year.
dogtown tom
Member
It's true and illegal, but happens anyway.
This guy couldn’t produce a registry to fully account for 3,732 guns in his inventory
