perhaps mag dump isn't always the best tactic

Watching the video a few times and I come up with the same thought every time. Only one guy had a clear shot, a head shot. The other two unless they were very skilled should not have fired. Obviously after the fact many better options can be seen, but that is irrelevant at this point. I don’t think this will turn out good for two of the officers, but they either lack serious training, or were just “caught up in the moment” and joined in after the first round fired, which I guess goes back to training. Very sad for all involved. The lady and her family, and the officers.

bullseye308 said:

Watching the video a few times and I come up with the same thought every time. Only one guy had a clear shot, a head shot. The other two unless they were very skilled should not have fired. Obviously after the fact many better options can be seen, but that is irrelevant at this point. I don’t think this will turn out good for two of the officers, but they either lack serious training, or were just “caught up in the moment” and joined in after the first round fired, which I guess goes back to training. Very sad for all involved. The lady and her family, and the officers.

Click to expand...

Or the protocols their training is based on is wrong. One poorly trained officer is a tragedy, three poorly trained officers is a red flag. When unarmed civilians are killed over the course of several incidents there is something organically wrong with how these officers are trained/indoctrinated.

Do these officers even train for accuracy? Like in, hit the bullseye in slow, accurate fire?

From most videos showing LEOs-involved shootings on the Net, it seems that the majority of them are good at pumping a lot of lead very fast in a general direction, but not much at hitting one particular point in the landscape...

That video is sickening, because it shows an absolute lack of stress-handling qualities, basic marksmanship, and general training for this type of job. A back-country boy raised in the woods hunting to put food on the table would have handled the situation better.

This video is more informative. It begins with the 911 call and shows the complete encounter from the beginning.



It's useful to watch this, carefully, a few times.

Have any of y'all ever pointed your weapon at another person, knowing that you are about to take their life? It's a lot different then hunting and shooting paper.
Did any of y'all read anything that said if the woman died from being shot by the officers? Is there anything that stated how many rounds were fired and how many times the man with the knife was hit?
Most of y'all are passing judgment without all the facts on the table. Remember that in real life you are not shown a video of the situation before you are put into it.
Yes, Mistakes were made. I feel bad for all involved.

If more than one officer this situation comes up all the time - there is no lead who takes command and who directs the best shooter to make the one or two shots IF needed. Nope, it becomes a pack animal scene where all the officers volley fire.

Bad control, bad tactics, bad corrective loop, bad training, it's been excused for decades and "cops" and their trainers AND their city council are not even attempting to address it.

There will be more volley fire executions until a major change in tactics is addressed and enforced. Up to and including the lead officer being prosecuted for the death of a citizen by unauthorized fire. Much less the cop who shot the unnecessary rounds.

Stop making excuses for it. Address it.

GunnyUSMC said:

Did any of y'all read anything that said if the woman died from being shot by the officers? Is there anything that stated how many rounds were fired and how many times the man with the knife was hit?

Click to expand...

18 rounds fired. Woman hit twice. I haven't seen or heard about how many times he was hit other than at least twice by bean bag.

Her neck was cut but its being reported that it was being shot that resulted in her death.

Police chief Michel Moore told reporters that hostages' lives are a priority and recruits are generally taught to use a "precise head shot." He said an investigation will look at whether the officers' actions align with hostage training.

Click to expand...

In real life, the average cop won't ever be involved in a hostage situation. (Heck, most won't ever fire their gun in a bad guy situation.)

How much training are THR members realistically expecting the average street cop to be trained in dynamic impromptu hostage taking?

Keep in mind that bean bagS didn't work and he was actually cutting her throat.

I can say that it seems that LAPD has some history with firing a lot of rounds at bad guys.

I can also say that they are supposed to 'neutralize the threat' as so many Thursday afternoon quarterback commandos like to say, and that collateral damage, while unfortunate, should not be unexpected.

It's also being reported that it's been 13 years since an innocent bystander or hostage has been killed by LAPD.

Time for Friday morning commando quarterbacking to resume.

George Dickel said:

I know police budgets are tight and the politicians aren't willing to spend money on better and more police officer training, they only want to spend it on harmful social programs that buy them votes. Police officers here where I live are underpaid as are EMT personnel and there aren't enough of them. When they get a bit of experience they move on to a larger city that pays more for their service. This incident is a glaring example of poor or insufficient training of their police or poor selection criteria for them at hiring time.

Click to expand...

Bullcrap. LA is not some backwater city. Cops there live large, a salary I can only dream of, a pension plan dripping in gold and the ability to retire at full pension while still young. There is no excuse for murder.

kheeka said:

Bullcrap. LA is not some backwater city. Cops there live large, a salary I can only dream of, a pension plan dripping in gold and the ability to retire at full pension while still young. There is no excuse for murder.

Click to expand...

I've seen the word Murder used a few times in this topic. I think some people need to learn the definition of the words they use.

John Joseph said:

It is horrific because a citizen was murdered in cold blood by the people charged with protecting her.

Click to expand...

Sorry but that wasn't MURDER it may have been MANSLAUGHTER, or NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER but not Murder.

I'm willing to bet the officer(s) didn't intend to kill an innocent citizen.

I agree many law enforcement officers shoot much worse than many gun enthusiasts. As mentioned training is limited and officers are tasked with so many other things that time on the range is much less than it should.

I know officers who have to pay for their own practice ammo and range time and it's gone on for decades.

Personally, I'm for accountability, but I'm also for supporting the police and federal agents who serve and protect us. I'm not sure what to make of this case. I will say though that I agree CA is a mess and it's only getting worse. Sadly I see my state of VA on a fast train following CA.

It's useful to watch the video I posted above 2 or 3 times. Useful because there are things there that we can be learn from. Enlarge the screen, clear your mind and watch.

They receive a 911 call that says a man has stabbed someone. The officers do not know how bad the wound is. A description of the man is provided.
The officer's arrive and pull into a courtyard. They see people milling about and going about their business. A man in a wheelchair directs them toward the suspect. The dozen or so people in the courtyard appear to be be engaged in their business and focused on that, they are not concerned with the suspect and their eyes are not on him. In the distance we can see a bald man in a blue uniform of some type with what may be a badge on. There is also, possibly, another man similarly dressed further back. Security guards? We don't know.

The suspect is maybe 30-35 yards away from where the vehicle stops. He is holding a knife and a chair and is talking to another man in a blue hat who is maybe 5 yards away from him.

The officers get out of their vehicle, begin to yell at the man to drop the knife, draw their weapons and aim them in the suspects direction and take cover behind the cruiser's doors.

The atmosphere in the courtyard shifts. The man speaking to the chair/knife fella walks away. All attention in the courtyard are now focused on the unfolding drama. Tension ratchets up. That is clearly seen.

The officers move forward a bit still pointing their side arms down range. In between the officers and the suspect is a woman in a walker. She is against the wall of a building by a doorway. She is in the line of fire. We see the people behind the chair/knife guy scramble to get out of the line of fire.

The knife/chair fella does not drop what he's carrying, he does not put his hands up, he does not lie down, instead he walks towards the officers.

The officers now move forward a few yards and bring up bean bag shotguns and their sidearms, continuing to yell for him to drop the knife.

The suspect walks forward past the woman against the wall. Maybe 5 yards past the woman towards the police.

The officers now begin to shoot him with the bean bags. Knife/chair fella looks surprised at this. He responds by using the chair as a shield.

At this point one officer, that we can see, moves out into the courtyard to get an angle on the suspect where he has a backstop of the building and can cut him off.

The knife/chair fella retreats back the way he came and walks back past the woman against the wall who remains in the line of fire. The officers continue to shout at him to drop the knife. Instead he lunges forward and grabs the woman taking her hostage. We do not know yet if he cut her or how serious those cuts were. At this point three officers open fire. 18 rounds (not a mag dump). 2 rounds kill the woman. We will learn more from the autopsy.

All this happens in less time than it takes to read this.

Rather than 'mag dump'.....perhaps 'volley fire' would be more appropriate? I know they are trained to shoot until the threat is neutralized, but seriously.....6 shots from each guy about as fast as the triggers can be pulled?

Someone was lamenting the 'I've got 17 rounds so my marksmanship doesn't matter as much' mentality (or something to that effect) and I've seen it first hand. Back when 6 shot revolvers were the norm....everyone was a LOT more careful with their shooting and we didn't hear about suspects being shot 15 times like is commonplace today. Yes....some of the revolver armed officers didn't survive their gunfights, but it almost always was from other reasons besides running out of ammo. Poor shooting will get you killed in a fight....so practice and become proficient.

Hokie_PhD said:

Sorry but that wasn't MURDER it may have been MANSLAUGHTER, or NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER but not Murder.

I'm willing to bet the officer(s) didn't intend to kill an innocent citizen.

I agree many law enforcement officers shoot much worse than many gun enthusiasts. As mentioned training is limited and officers are tasked with so many other things that time on the range is much less than it should.

I know officers who have to pay for their own practice ammo and range time and it's gone on for decades.

Personally, I'm for accountability, but I'm also for supporting the police and federal agents who serve and protect us. I'm not sure what to make of this case. I will say though that I agree CA is a mess and it's only getting worse. Sadly I see my state of VA on a fast train following CA.

Click to expand...

The LAPD shooting was willful, not accidental, nor was it negligent in that it wasn't an issue of self defense for the officer's involved, nor could their actions be reasonably expected to preserve life. That they reformed after the bean bag failure and hostage taken, and shots fired in unison I think proves premeditation, individually if not communally.

I think the officers did what they were trained to do. That is the problem as I see it.
That is why California's POST needs to be held accountable, much like if the AAMC protocols required medical students to euthanize patients that didn't recover from surgery as expected.
It's not a matter of not supporting police and federal agents. They cannot function if the public's trust is compromised and that is why professionalism is held to the highest standard (this is the first thing we were taught in the academy!) In LAPD's case, the standard is a murderously flawed standard. And it came from POST.

I’m not a lawyer nor claim to try. What I do know is that BS in places like CA and MA is making all of us less safe.

Murder has had a specific meaning that even the most clueless about the law understand. So if CA and such have attempted to redefine it that makes this even worse.

My understanding of manslaughter is that it’s killing someone by your actions without the intent the murder has. Hence if the officers didn’t intend to kill an innocent person if they were wreckless it would make more sense.

In any case, I’m fed up with those that take our rights away and attack those who keep law and order, what’s so sad is many that I know couldn’t last a week with what they seek. But that’s a totally different discussion.

SSN Vet said:

What not to do if someone has a knife at your loved one's throat.

Hmmmm..... Simultaneous mag dumps by multiple officers when the perp was no threat to them...

Is anyone surprised that the hostage was killed?

Click to expand...

I just LOVE how so many are here to tell us what "should" have happened.

ONLY those officers there can tell you why they fired,and I doubt you would understand unless you were ever in a situation even close to that.

Were they wrong in shooting the hostage,of course.

NOW ---- let the courts settle it and all take a step back and tell each other how well "we" would have done it.

Until now ,yes RIGHT NOW,there has not been a police academy that trains officers how to handle that particular situation.

And as a retired cop,I can tell you that the training that we "should get" is not available to us.

Far too expensive AND the cost in officers hurt and gear needed means it will not happen.

tipoc said:

It's useful to watch this, carefully, a few times.

Click to expand...

So many horrible training failures in there that it's painful to watch. If that video wasn't a series of egregious violations of SOP, LAPD needs to have their training program looked at by a 3rd party.

Hokie_PhD said:

Sorry but that wasn't MURDER it may have been MANSLAUGHTER, or NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER but not Murder.

I'm willing to bet the officer(s) didn't intend to kill an innocent citizen.

I agree many law enforcement officers shoot much worse than many gun enthusiasts. As mentioned training is limited and officers are tasked with so many other things that time on the range is much less than it should.

I know officers who have to pay for their own practice ammo and range time and it's gone on for decades.

Personally, I'm for accountability, but I'm also for supporting the police and federal agents who serve and protect us. I'm not sure what to make of this case. I will say though that I agree CA is a mess and it's only getting worse. Sadly I see my state of VA on a fast train following CA.

Click to expand...

I hope not in Va! Well here in sw, va LEA have good training and it hasn't happened here at this point !

One comment regarding high capacity pistols:

I remember for years the "Number One" pistol cartridge for one-shot stops was the .357 mag. One of the reasons I think that it had such a high one-shot-stop performance is that cops knew that they only had six shots...so they aimed carefully rather than spraying.

In CA, everything is by the book and POST wrote the book when it comes to peace officer training, Trainers must follow the book. LEOs have to follow the book. If the book is wrong in some detail, well, there's the problem.
I was in the SO shortly after pivotal events changed the way training is conducted, right around the time we switched from .357 revolvers to wonder nines after Newhall in '70 and before the FBI Miami massacre in '86. statistically the 30 years since has seen more innocent casualties, or has it? I'm thinking it has but I could be in error. It would be interesting to know the truth.
Either way the LAPD shooting was uncalled for and an innocent homeless, unarmed crippled woman was murdered (yes murdered, it was no mistake that she was in the line of fire, the officers were not in immediate danger, and willfully shot multiple rounds with the intent to kill who,ever was on the receiving end.) Something is wrong with the training these officers are receiving in CA, maybe in your state too.
The law enforcement training community is tightly knit. Let's hope they can get this straightened out and not pass the blame or sweep it under the rug..

kheeka said:

Bullcrap. LA is not some backwater city. Cops there live large, a salary I can only dream of, a pension plan dripping in gold and the ability to retire at full pension while still young. There is no excuse for murder.

Click to expand...

Did I say anything about LA police officers being underpaid, I said that the police officers where I live are underpaid. I stated that most cities don't budget sufficient money to properly train officers, this topic has been reported on in various news articles for years. Work on your reading comprehension.
Instead of being jealous, move to LA and get a job as a police officer.

Follow up article on the family suing the LAPD.

http://enewspaper.latimes.com/deskt...x?pubid=50435180-e58e-48b5-8e0c-236bf740270e#

Family members were told that the wounds from the knife to their mother's throat were not life threatening.

The original 911 call came in because the man with the knife got into a fight with his girlfriend and her hands had been cut. No information on how badly.

The family will contend that it was the police's aggressive and reckless behavior that created a crisis atmosphere and led to their mother's death.

RecoilRob said:

Rather than 'mag dump'.....perhaps 'volley fire' would be more appropriate? I know they are trained to shoot until the threat is neutralized, but seriously.....6 shots from each guy about as fast as the triggers can be pulled?

Someone was lamenting the 'I've got 17 rounds so my marksmanship doesn't matter as much' mentality (or something to that effect) and I've seen it first hand. Back when 6 shot revolvers were the norm....everyone was a LOT more careful with their shooting and we didn't hear about suspects being shot 15 times like is commonplace today. Yes....some of the revolver armed officers didn't survive their gunfights, but it almost always was from other reasons besides running out of ammo. Poor shooting will get you killed in a fight....so practice and become proficient.

Click to expand...

In 1988 as I and another instructor were issuing our new Sig P226 pistols to our troops one of them exclaimed "Sixteen shots! I can miss 15 times!"

scaatylobo said:

I just LOVE how so many are here to tell us what "should" have happened.

ONLY those officers there can tell you why they fired,and I doubt you would understand unless you were ever in a situation even close to that.

Were they wrong in shooting the hostage,of course.

NOW ---- let the courts settle it and all take a step back and tell each other how well "we" would have done it.

Until now ,yes RIGHT NOW,there has not been a police academy that trains officers how to handle that particular situation.

And as a retired cop,I can tell you that the training that we "should get" is not available to us.

Far too expensive AND the cost in officers hurt and gear needed means it will not happen.

Click to expand...

I don't know where you went but I went to two different academies in NJ, in 1980 and 1983, and both of them trained us in this exact scenario, as well as many others.

Jiminy Crickets... some of you need to get off the soap box.

The way you're talking is like the good guys on flight 93 are all MURDERERS.