Are gun combat courses becoming expected?

Spending a fortune on training is fine if that's your hobby. As far as developing a warrior mentality I don't believe that happens. You either are or you aren't. You can't teach awareness either.
I say train all you want to but at the end of the day be honest with yourself. This is just a game we pretend at. By the way remember that awareness and the seatbelt on the way to the range because driving is riskier than any imagined assault by bad guys.

Trey Veston said:

I could never afford to attend their training courses.
But there is no way a working man can afford to blow $2k plus airfare and housing on a weekend getting lessons on combat shooting.

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It's all about priorities. I'm just barely "middle class", my house for family of four is 740 square feet and I literally live firewood sale to firewood sale in the winter time slow season. However, as a free American citizen, I believe that keeping and bearing arms as part of a well regulated militia is a responsibility. Since "well regulated" means "well trained and equipped", in today's vernacular, that necessitates professional training.

Trey Veston said:

Not to disparage those who can afford thousands of dollars on training that they will likely never use,

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Can you afford to buy coffee once or twice a day? Eat at a restaurant? Pay for a vehicle newer than ten years? Own a TV? Pay for cable? It's not just wealthy people who get good training, it's people who prioritize it.

Trey Veston said:

but there seems to be a trend among the internet firearms community that simply buying a pistol and practicing at the range regularly is grossly negligent.

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I certainly wouldn't say that's a "trend" yet, although I hope you're right.

Trey Veston said:

I don't know about the rest of you, but I grew up the son of a poor cop, became a poor cop for a while, and am still lower middle class and have to watch my spending. I drive a 15yr old SUV that is worth less than a Les Bauer 1911 and a weekend at Gunsite.

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Heck, for years I drove vehicles that were barely worth the cost of my Glock 19 carry pistol by itself, let alone the cost of the training I attended. All about priorities.

Trey Veston said:

But it seems that going to these courses is becoming more and more common, and possibly even expected.

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Lets hope so. The more well trained people we have out there, the better off we'll be.

Preparedness is the cure for Paranoia. That’s what I used to tell my late friend. He was a combat vet, retired State Trooper, firearms instructor and SWAT. If he didn’t have two guns on him, he had three. He kept an extra handgun in his vehicle along with an AR. He also had extra mags and ammo. And man could he shoot.
He was as gentle as sandpaper on a slide with the spoken word. And would just tell me to shut up in a colorful way.
I learned a lot from him and I’m Prepared.
I think that one should find what level of Preparedness they are comfortable with to take on the day.

I'm not sure why you chose to single out what's probably one of the more expensive courses, but training doesn't have to be that way. The last time I went out for training, I did a day of private instruction from a local police firearms instructor for about 10% of the Gunsite cost, but I'd guess it was 75-100 percent of the quality of more expensive instruction. I drove a couple hours each way, bought my ammo online for ~.16/round, and all told was in and out for less than $400.

WrongHanded said:

Running away is free. Being taught how to run away tactically? That cost $349 for the Basic 2 day class, but comes with a complimentary set of running shoes.

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And remember, "serpentine..."

The fundamentals of good shooting skills are the same regardless of the type of shooting you may do. Any good instructor will start with the basics. Even for long time shooters having someone observe and assess our basic skill is good as we can let little things slip.

The problem with training classes is it is strictly "buyer beware" as you have no way of knowing how good the instructor(s) are and how good the course content is. The problem here in the Land of Oz is there are not any good training courses reasonably close and the local range guys...well let's just say they are not...well let's just not go there.

Anyway a couple of years ago a local range set up a class from Gunsite. It was for several days with the cost around $1600.00. I was initially very interested in taking the class. However when I asked about who the instructors were going to be I was told they did not know. It would be whoever Gunsite sent. In addition the employees did not know what the actual course content would be. This immediately turned me off as spending $1600.00 along with taking several days off work to take a class without knowing who the instructor would be and their background.

I am not easily impressed by name dropping. Well it is a Gunsite class so it has to be good right? er...no.

Many of us (and I am holding my hand up the highest) can benefit from shooting regularly and a lot. The problem is this thing called life keeps getting in the way of our plans. Without practice our skills go stale. So how much benefit is that $2500.00 + Gunsite shooting class when you will not be able to regularly practice what you learn?

I am not a gamer anymore but IDPA is a affordable way to build your shooting skills. The holes in the target do not lie.

As my edc is the Beretta 92 I love to take a class from Ernest Langdon. A check of his website shows his classes are affordable. Unfortunately for me I did not know at the time that he travels around the country teaching and missed out on a class he offered in OKC by a month. In fact I have talked to Ernest about when he will be coming close again and the comment he made to me is in the meantime keep shooting my 92.

Sounds like good advice. Now if I can just get this thing called life out of the way.

Round count and muscle memory. (Hey, two of the terms from the 'What terminology.." thread!) I shot a lot more when I was younger, and the motions needed are burned into my very being. That said, I find I need to practice with handguns most, as those skills are the most perishable. With rifles, it's more of a making sure the skills are still on tap, and with shotguns, I'll leave you with an example: I hadn't shot Trap in about 15 years when we had a family reunion at the range by my sister's house. We were to shoot a round of Trap, but I forgot my 870, and my son's 1100. So I had to rent guns. I rented a Browning BT-99, which I've shot a few of, but never owned, for me,and an 11-87 for my son. I shot a 23, having not shot real Trap in 15 years, and with a rented gun of a type I hadn't shot in 25 years. That tied my uncle, who shot in a very competitive league. My son shot a 20 with his rented gun, and that was the first (and so far only) time on an actual Trap range. I am trying to get him to join the leagues I now shoot in.

Some observations:

• There are different kinds of competence with firearms. There is don't-shoot-yourself-by-accident competence. There is don't-think-you-are-legally-entitled-to-shoot-someone-for-letting-their-dog-poop-in-your-yard competence. There is I-can-hit-what-I-aim-at-sufficient-to-hit-one-attacker-at-mugging-distance competence. There is I-can-el-pres-a-trio-of-muggers-in-3-seconds competence. There is no one "competence."
• There is a tendency to equate training with competence. Training, properly delivered and properly taken, can increase competence... but it is not the same thing as competence.
• The four biggest obstacles to competence of any kind are: 1) access to information about what you should be doing/deciding; 2) opportunities to exercise the competence sufficient to learn it; 3) discriminating between good information and bad information; and 4) having some objective way of assessing whether you are actually doing what you think you are doing. The right class can help with all of these. The wrong class can fail #3 and render everything else worthless or counterproductive. I suspect at least half of the classes offered these days fail #3.

If the money isn't there, it just isn't there.

When I was working for a crooked IT contractor at the Cleveland Clinic, there was one day I literally wouldn't have had enough gas to get home from work if I hadn't had a pre-paid VISA card my cousin sent me for my birthday.

If you've had meaningful employment since 2009, count yourself lucky. A lot of us haven't.

I JUST got my first non-contract job since 2009 last year.

It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I was able to afford to replace my carry M1911 that I sold to pay the rent.

When I can't put gas in the car, I'm sure not going to Gunsite, or any place local for that matter.

psyopspec said:

I'm not sure why you chose to single out what's probably one of the more expensive courses, but training doesn't have to be that way.

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Quite true. I haven't been to Gunsite but they are definitely one of the most expensive options out there. Often you get what you pay for but there are also times when you're paying extra for a label.

Deanimator said:

If the money isn't there, it just isn't there.

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Of course. That doesn't describe the majority of gun owners though. If a person can afford to pay for a TV and cable, or more than one handgun, or an ATV, or a newer car, or a riding lawn mower, or beer, or eating at a restaurant, etc. etc. then they can afford to get at least some decent training. If the money isn't there, it isn't there, but that only realistically applies to a very small number of people.

Deanimator said:

If the money isn't there, it just isn't there.

When I was working for a crooked IT contractor at the Cleveland Clinic, there was one day I literally wouldn't have had enough gas to get home from work if I hadn't had a pre-paid VISA card my cousin sent me for my birthday.

If you've had meaningful employment since 2009, count yourself lucky. A lot of us haven't.

I JUST got my first non-contract job since 2009 last year.

It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I was able to afford to replace my carry M1911 that I sold to pay the rent.

When I can't put gas in the car, I'm sure not going to Gunsite, or any place local for that matter.

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I'm glad to hear that things are looking up for you. My own last ten years have been marked by some very low lows and some better financial times, as have a lot of folks. That said, I don't think any reasonable person would argue that if one is struggling to make ends meet that training should come before paying the bills. It seems like people are more focusing on whether training is prohibitively expensive for someone who has the basics covered.

Most people with permits, licenses, etc. don't train - estimates are between 93 to 99% of carriers don't. I understand the money issue perfectly. However, if one isn't against the wall, you can get pretty decent basics around here for $100 to 200 a day from a well known and qualified instructor.

You can do just fine without Gunsite or ThunderRanch.

A few further observations, most of these derived from the last 4 years spent as the Match Director of a weekly USPSA match that sees lots of new-to-competition shooters:

• People who come in who have been to classes tend to be at least marginally competent as marksmen, tend to be reasonably safe, and tend to have a lot of "tics" or dogma-driven stuff/moves in their shooting and gun handling that looks like "frosting" and wasted motion/energy to me. (E.g., "threat scan" before reholstering - in a room full of people with guns; not sure what they're "training" themselves to look for "on the streetz.")
• People who go take a class often come back energized/excited.
• Some people come back from a class and do have a marked improvement - usually because of some wrong-headed concept the instructor got them to let go of.
• Most people who come back from a class don't immediately shoot better, or at least not any better than they would shoot after any other weekend when they dumped 500-1k rounds into the berm.
• People who come back from a class and then practice diligently often do get much better... and roughly in proportion to the amount of practice they do.
• I tend to be an auto-didact. I've taught myself how to do a number of things to at least a reasonable level of confidence. I'm comfortable taking written instruction and applying it. Not everyone is. For people who have a hard time digesting written materials, instruction may be the most efficient way to upload new information. Conversely, for people who can upload information into their own brains, a good set of eyes checking what they are actually doing is probably the most valuable aspect of a class.

Each month in NRA publications either The American Rifleman or Shooting Illustration there is the Armed Citizen column. There are (x) number of brief excerpts with general incident information about individuals defending themselves and or others. There is no detailed information about competency or levels of training in regards those that defending themselves and or others. That's five decades I've read the columns monthly. The willingness to fight/be combative in defending oneself is paramount. The level of expertise not mentioned/ training who knows?

I think you all are focusing on the wrong aspect of the OP s post.
We can debate all day about the value of training but I think what the OP was bristling against was the attitude of people who are supposed to be 2a supporters that gun owners who don’t train to this higher level are “dangerous “ or unprepared.
This is a line of reasoning Antis use to justify laws requiring permits and training and cost for firearms ownership.
2a is for everyone, not just those who can afford it

Hangingrock said:

The willingness to fight/be combative in defending oneself is paramount.

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And the willingness to de-escalate, avoid physical conflict, etc., are paramount as well... rarely the subject of Armed Citizen columns, but quite critical to minimizing your chance of becoming the latest poster boy of "good guys with guns until they aren't."

Peter Gun said:

2a is for everyone, not just those who can afford it

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OK, but there are certainly some people who would be better off not exercising that right due to incompetence. Just as many people would be better off not writing letters to the editor or posting on social media, notwithstanding their right to do so.

We should all want people to use firearms responsibly. I think mandatory training would be a misguided way to pursue that goal, but wanting people to be competent is quite reasonable and beneficial to all of us.

Not only competent with handling/shooting, but competent with a basic understanding of laws so one doesn't end up in a situation such as this:
https://komonews.com/news/local/spa...t-killed-thief-sentenced-to-8-years-in-prison
Ayoob and others have been teaching classroom sessions that are as vital as the sessions out on the range.

I suspect the people pushing the big money schools either teach for them, or are indulging in training snobbery. Training is good, but you don't have to spend big $$ on it, there's probably a local class. More importantly, you have to practice. Practice doing hard things. Stop shooting at spitting distance, set up a target at 25 yards. Master that...then move to 50.

You want to really shoot? Try the precision disciplines. Get a handle on those, and everything else will come together.

Speed does not "come together" from precision. Precision is always useful, but if you think speed matters, only time-pressured training/competition will build it reliably.

It’s always about three things. Time. Means. And Opportunity. They seldom all line up. When they do then you can do anything.

I got my training for free. It did require a short haircut and a short swearing-in ceremony, and a few other things. Now, many of the guys I worked with are making good $ sharing their knowledge with others. Some of these fellows providing this training are spot-on, and some are charlatans, riding on their credentials.

ATLDave said:

Speed does not "come together" from precision. Precision is always useful, but if you think speed matters, only time-pressured training/competition will build it reliably.

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At Front Sight they teach go slowly to become fast. Work on precision of motion at a very slow pace. When you know every movement perfectly, speeding it all up becomes easy.

Please read the post to which I was responding.