Setting And Enforcing Your Boundaries In Public

Old Dog said:

With all due respect, nowhere did I read the OP was specifying his advice applied strictly to gas stations.

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I might have misread the OP but I thought the example he gave was while pumping gas.

I will say again, that while Givens doesn't stress this he does note that most of his examples occurred in parking lots.

This mirrors my experience but my job mostly occurred in parking lots.

You said it first but I don't know too many people who have grown to adulthood without knowing how to politely and appropriately enforce social boundaries.

Which brings up another good point, if I look at you and say "Excuse me sir you're a little close to me could you back up please." And your response is"FU MFKR!!!!" That should be a fairly good indication to you this is not a normal social interaction and that you need to adjust your posture and your response accordingly.

And now, if you all will excuse me I'm busy doing laundry and watching Band of Brothers so I'll see you all later

People lose their minds with this topic. It's insane to think that one can magically enforce some subjective bubble around their body and even crazier that people feel the need to absent specific circumstances setting off alarm bells.

I'm approached by people all the time and it's nothing to freak out about. If they get into "my space" I can ask them to step back but if they don't want to then it's on me to walk away. I can't "enforce a thing." If they start screaming in my face and I can articulate violence is imminent then that changes things.

There's this thing called being a man and it involves not freaking out every time another man is within touching distance. Be aware, be capable, be prepared to deal with violence if it comes but you shouldn't expect it from everyone you meet.

Jeff White said:

Even a police officer, if he wants to be effective on the job or even keep his job doesn’t treat every person who breaks their bubble as an attacker. I was taught more years ago than I care to admit to step back to create reactive distance and only escalate to a verbal warning if the person steps forward when you step back. Most people will take the non-verbal cue that they are too close and keep their distance. It’s a non-confrontational way to stay ahead of a situation.

Obviously this won’t apply in crowded situations one might find oneself in such as public transportation or a concert or ball game. A different set of rules apply there. If armed you need to be concerned with protecting your weapon, if unarmed you need to protect your wallet and other valuables.

I did this so much on the job I do it automatically in retirement. If you go through life looking for trouble you will eventually find someone who will oblige you. Learn to read people, profile them. Let their body language guide your response.

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Exactly. I've found that simply saying words to the effect of "whoa, personal space buddy" in a non aggressive personable tone of voice while holding my palm out toward them works wonders for people to get the hint. If they don't get the hint it's usually because there are other aggressive indicators going on and that will be dealt with as appropriate.

As a cop you learn the number one way to avoid fighting isn't a death stare or authoritative voice. It's simply being calm and respectful while being clear about what you want.

I do look at my surroundings; armed or not. I interact with strangers as minimally as possible, except bartenders, wait staff, and cashiers. Regardless, some folks will approach and I will shake my head. I am not aware of any special stink-eye or FAFO look. The head shake is usually all that is required. That's usually the extent of it. Very, very few try to push it with me, even in this famous tourist magnet in the desert. I am convinced that after 70+ yrs of life, that looking for that special something by that special someone who might invade my personal space and thus, trigger some special behavior on my part is just the equivalent to looking for trouble. You know what is said about looking for trouble.

Creaky_Old_Cop said:

Though invading the personal space of another ON ITS OWN is not a specific crime, it is recognized that the Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy components of an assaultive act increase as proximity increases.

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Whether driving on a rural freeway, pumping gas, walking on a sidewalk in Portland, or riding a busy subway car in New York City, the same AOJ assessments apply. Ability and Opportunity determinations can be clear-cut and kind of mechanical (e.g. "the 21-foot rule" or "I saw a box-cutter in his hand").

Jeopardy not so much.

Jeopardy, of course, can also be described as "manifest intent".

Close proximity in a busy subway car is an accepted, normal fact of life. Not by itself a manifestation of evil intent.

But attempting to approach to within arms-reach of a person pumping self-service gas is NOT normal behavior. When combined with a predator stare, a forward lean, clenched fists, a quick sideways glance, or other actions it may be a dependable indicator of evil intent.

Manifest intent can be subtle. It can be ambivalent. It depends on what is "normal" or "has been learned through experience" for those who are involved. Or who serve on juries.

In the face of possible manifest evil intent, it makes sense to clarify things; to see what game is actually afoot if possible. The phrase I use on unknown contacts who get a little too close is: "STOP! I ain't got nuttin' for ya!" with my non-dominant hand raised traffic-cop-style. This is a lot like what the OP describes. It forces the unknown contact to reveal something about his game. If he retreats (out of my bubble, to use the OP's term), life is good. If he continues to advance, the likelihood that he has evil intent increases greatly.

And the mechanical Opportunity and Ability assessments shift into high gear.


Let's not let the OP's language and strong opinions cloud our understanding of his applications of AOJ. Not everyone around us is nice. The law does not require us to behave nicely. Or politely.

Kleanbore said:

my recourse is limited to a polite request and to moving away.

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The tricky criminals in crowded public spaces are those who can operate without clearly manifesting evil intent. Observing (or hiding) intent depends on the skills of both the criminal, AND the observer.

For example, the main Mexico City bus terminal is a hive of theft. Pickpockets abound. Thieves use sharp knives to slit open the bottoms of women's purses to extract the contents. Normal behavior in that environment is for men to NOT carry anything in their pockets. Moneybelts are common. Women don't carry handbags and hide their cash and cards in their bras.

I suspect that there are places in US cities that have similar problems.

In those places, evil intent is assumed. Unless, I suppose, you're an oblivious gringo tourist.

In the OP's example, "Old Fart" did not see "crackhead's" manifest intent. But the OP did. As a parable encouraging us all to do better here, this story seems valuable.

Creaky_Old_Cop said:

Yes, the example was, SPECIFICALLY, a behavior and awareness fail I witnessed while at Speedway while pumping gas. Old Dog is using some creative interpretation to decide what I meant. I see a lot of that on here.

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Oh, pardonez moi, s'il vous plais. Apparently, I indulged in "creative interpretation" and made the mistake of assuming that in your thread titled "Setting and enforcing your boundaries in public" you were attempting to provide a public service and offer forth advice which had application beyond simply setting and enforcing your boundaries while pumping gas at Speedway. I shall not do that again, ever!

Jeff White said:

Even a police officer, if he wants to be effective on the job or even keep his job doesn’t treat every person who breaks their bubble as an attacker. I was taught more years ago than I care to admit to step back to create reactive distance and only escalate to a verbal warning if the person steps forward when you step back.

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shafter said:

As a cop you learn the number one way to avoid fighting isn't a death stare or authoritative voice. It's simply being calm and respectful while being clear about what you want.

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My experience as well. And yep, if one always responds with a harsh tone, stern warning, whatever, in a loud "cop voice," one may be that guy who's actually escalating an otherwise routine social situation. Of course, it took me quite a few years to "get this." Some never do.

The original post says a lot about situational awareness.

As far as someone getting too close to you somewhere you have room- not a bus or train, but someplace like a gas station in the OP- you might consider walking away. I've walked around my car to get away from people before. It's fine for a cop to faceplant somebody for tapping him on the shoulder- he has a job to do and he can't just leave. That's a misdemeanor assault for the rest of us. We can just walk away.

shafter said:

As a cop you learn the number one way to avoid fighting isn't a death stare or authoritative voice. It's simply being calm and respectful while being clear about what you want.

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When I was younger I had a few cops come out of the gate with an aggressive tone. Maybe they were trying to get my attention? It never helped. There's a lot to be said for calm and respectful.

Mmm. I am employed at our local Stop N’ Rob… we’ve one particular local woman who has a lifetime ban from our property, no questions asked. Loitering, panhandling, theft, assault, list goes on. For whatever unfathomable reason, she always gets her transportation to drop her… guess where ? At our fueling station. It’s to the point now that we simply call county dispatch and they send a deputy out.

She has been known to draw blades on individuals, and panhandle for both money and transport, as well as sell… other services to less discerning patrons. We run her off at times if she’s particularly bothersome- she’s no trouble towards us- she knows we’re all armed to the teeth and will not hesitate if necessary… but she preys on unsuspecting tourists and travelers. She’s been run over, shot, carried away and dropped off; only to come wandering back like some stray mongrel.



Whole point being… you’d be absolutely flabbergasted at the number of people who just… don’t see her as a threat; even with her throwing off enough “I’m a tweaker and also naturally psycho !!!” vibes to jump start a mobile meth lab… my supervisor and I were discussing how we would never let her within ten feet of us, but most of these people just… like they’re begging to get robbed and knifed. Ab-so-lutely oblivious as oblivious could get.

Personal space: it’s a thing. It varies by person, but everyone has it. Most won’t breach it because it’s considered rude. Those that do? At the least, they’re boorish. Or worse…

I don’t go bat**** crazy when people get too close. I do get hyper vigilant, though. It’s a lot like radar and target threat analysis algorithms. Detect and discriminate. Those falling into “potential target” get extra special attention.

I also go to great lengths to avoid violation of my personal space.

On a slightly different topic - I see you say you always pump gas at the furthest pump from the building. I always try to pump gas as close to and in plain view of the front door as possible. The tricksters are always angling at new ways to steal credit card info. I feel like pump furthest out is the one most easily jacked with. I live in a pretty safe yuppie area. I'm not typically worried about being robbed (when I'm close to home), but electronic credit card theft is everywhere.

The way I look people don't want to come to close to begin with.
But if some methican decides to be stupid and try anyways. My usual response is to scowl even more and reply "who the hell carries cash anymore".

You don't get old in my line of work by being a

Littlef said:

On a slightly different topic - I see you say you always pump gas at the furthest pump from the building. I always try to pump gas as close to and in plain view of the front door as possible.

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There's a Shell station a block from my house, that's where I usually get gas.

I'm familiar with the station, I'm familiar with what's normal for that location and I'm familiar with the neighborhood crackheads that wander through their parking lot.

Like the OP, I generally park on the outside island in such a way that I have a straight shot out of the parking lot.

It's too easy to get blocked in on the inside Island. I also have a better view of what's going on around me and if something happens all I have to do is get in my car and drive straight out of the parking lot.

The Night Rider said:

There's a Shell station a block from my house, that's where I usually get gas.

I'm familiar with the station, I'm familiar with what's normal for that location and I'm familiar with the neighborhood crackheads that wander through their parking lot.

Like the OP, I generally park on the outside island in such a way that I have a straight shot out of the parking lot.

It's too easy to get blocked in on the inside Island. I also have a better view of what's going on around me and if something happens all I have to do is get in my car and drive straight out of the parking lot.

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Makes sense. Sorry you have to regularly navigate a horde of zombie crackheads. If I have to go downtown amongst the shanty towns, the rules of operation change.

Our county is patrolled mostly by Sheriff's deputies. These folks spend their first seven (I think) years in correctional facilities, bossing the inmates around. In my paramedic days, when I worked alongside law enforcement on a regular basis, it became easy to tell which ones had just come out of that duty: they were the ones who treated everyone like an inmate, and it often resulted in drama where drama wasn't necessary. Essentially, it was up to the citizen to de-escalate, and I saw more than one end up on the ground when he took offense.

Meanwhile, the older deputies had learned to deal with their fellow citizens as fellow citizens, which worked far better in general.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that I agree with the OP as far as situational awareness goes, but that I'm not sure barking orders at anyone who comes within six or nine feet is a safe or effective strategy.

Folks, perhaps we don't need to over-think or complicate awareness of potential or possible threats within our immediate area whenever we're out in Public.

The circumstances of the particular situations will often define how close people may be to us (Public Transit, standing in line at supermarkets, seated in restaurants and movie theaters, etc). It is what it is, for the reasons it must be. Being paranoid is just adding to the annoyance and/or grief factors that may exist in our lives.

There are those of us who have worked in fields where we were exposed to more potential and possible threats posed by others, and even trained to better recognize such things. There are some assorted training venues that LE and other first responders (and the military) may receive which can be directly beneficial in this regard (i.e. like the Detecting Danger training I attended). Then, there's the 'experiential knowledge' route for folks in such professions.

Where some of the Motoring Public may be at a disadvantage is not having been made aware of how to tell the difference between realistic potential threats, versus just fearing there may be some threat. The ability to differentiate between a reasonable fear, versus just a bare fear. Since much of our laws use the legal principle of the 'reasonable person standard', it may behoove folks who carry firearms as a dedicated weapon to become familiar with the nuances involved.

Paranoid versus Prudent. That's the question, and the trick.

The Night Rider said:

Finally, one thing I would never do is intervene in someone else's incident.

If Joe crackhead is trifling with the guy at the next pump over, number one it's none of my business and number two if he's doing that he's not messing with me.

Not my circus. Not my monkeys. Not my problem.

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For one thing, we often don't really know what is going on in someone else's incident and might just end up on the wrong side of the conflict. It also reminds me of a proverb: