A Shotgun, Me & a Bandit.

[V4Vendetta]

I've been thinking. If a guy tries to hold up my store, I'll be at my station with a shotgun under the desk. Now you guys probably haven't been to my store so let me describe it so you can draw a mental picture. If you walk straight to the register after you come in, you can't see my desk. My dad however, if he's at his desk, you can see. He's unarmed. If a BG comes in and pulls a gun on him, what should I do? I don't want to get him killed or have a mexican stand-off. I've been thinking that when the guy is leaving, I could pump a shell to scare him with that sound & shout "FREEZE!". If he does something foolish like turning around or not freezing, I'd waste him. But what if after my dad gives him the money from the register, the BG still isn't happy & shoots him. I don't want that either. What are your thoughts? I'm not worried about legal issues or anything like that. I plan for my parents & me to die of old age. Not some crackhead who wants a quick fix.

 

[Preacherman]

If someone is placing you or your parent(s) in mortal danger, you do NOT have to give any warning at all. I wouldn't - not only might the BG shoot them, he might turn and shoot at me. I'd also have a round in the chamber, ready to go, so that he couldn't turn and fire at me as the noise alerted him. Ideally, he'll be down and out before he realises what's hit him - which is exactly the way I want it to go.

 

[Manedwolf]

If someone is placing you or your parent(s) in mortal danger, you do NOT have to give any warning at all. I wouldn't - not only might the BG shoot them, he might turn and shoot at me. I'd also have a round in the chamber, ready to go, so that he couldn't turn and fire at me as the noise alerted him. Ideally, he'll be down and out before he realises what's hit him - which is exactly the way I want it to go.

My thinking has always been that if it's a loser with a baseball bat or a knife, just brandishing it, they get the "DROP THE..!"...gun pointed at them, since they can't do much before I could shoot.

However, if they have a gun out, I'd say first sound is first shot, because if I yelled, they'd have time to move or shoot back. If I don't, I can find cover and if they're not looking at me, take those precious seconds to line up a perfect COM shot and take into account what's beyond them. And then followup shots until either they go down, or they drop their gun or flee, if they're able to.

And yes, "fear of imminent use of unlawful deadly force against a third party" is justification for use of deadly force in NH.

Sound about right?

And is there any precedent for when people rob a store with a replica gun, and a CCW shoots them, what the police and courts tend to do?

 

[ccw007]

I've been thinking that when the guy is leaving, I could pump a shell to scare him with that sound & shout "FREEZE!". If he does something foolish like turning around or not freezing, I'd waste him.

This would be a very bad move. If he is leaving the scene then threat is over and you CANNOT use deadly force legally in NC. You MUST be in fear of you life or in fear of great bodily harm at the time. When you pull the gun out as he his leaving this could make you the aggressor. I am not sure what kind of store you have, but if you have video surveillance it could be used against you in this situation. There are hundreds of way this scenario could unfold and you can legally use deadly force, but if you do it when he is leaving you could get into some trouble.

I'm not worried about legal issues or anything like that.

You better be it could save you from spending the rest of your life in jail.
I would strongly recommend you looking into the laws here on when you can and cannot use deadly force. A CCW class is a good start.

 

[HankB]

BG has gun: BANG! or maybe BANGBANGBANG!
BG has knife or club: "DROP IT! FACE DOWN ON THE FLOOR! NOW! DO IT OR I'LL SHOOT YOU!"
BG is leaving, nobody hurt: Probably best to let him go, depending on the laws where YOU are.

. . . if you have video surveillance it could be used against you in this situation.

Police often "lose" the tapes from their dashboard cams . . . you probably could, too, if you're not careful.

 

[hso]

i disagree with much of your plan.

Don't ever chamber a shell to scare a BG. The only sound they should ever hear is the safety clicking off or the BOOM of the shotgun.

A mexican stand-off isn't the problem. You point the shotgun at the BG. You inform him that he needs to leave right now. If he says that he'll kill your dad make sure that it's aimed at his head when you pull the trigger.

If the BG has already turned and is leaving you may not have legal justification for shooting him. You certainly have plenty of justification for drawing a bead on him and making sure that he doesn't turn around before leaving and shoot anyone.

You're not a cop and your job isn't to hold him. You're only desire is that no one harm your family. That means not giving him a chance to harm them. You either kill him or force him out of the building and then hold the fort until the cops get there.

 

[V4Vendetta]

The reason I said I wasn't worried about legal issues is because I will protect my family regardless. I won't be wronged or swindled. I treat others as I want to be treated until given reason otherwise. The government can stay out of it or I'll stop paying taxes, get my stuff & leave.

 

[conkmwc]

The government can stay out of it or I'll stop paying taxes...

Good luck on that one.

 

[V4Vendetta]

Read the rest of the sentence.

 

[nfl1990]

Originally Posted by V4Vendetta
The government can stay out of it or I'll stop paying taxes...

Good luck on that one.

Yeah but read what comes right after the ...

 

[conkmwc]

Read the rest of the sentence.

I read it. Where are you going that the government will stay out of your business? I'll go with you if there's such a place.

 

[Manedwolf]

The reason I said I wasn't worried about legal issues is because I will protect my family regardless. I won't be wronged or swindled. I treat others as I want to be treated until given reason otherwise. The government can stay out of it or I'll stop paying taxes, get my stuff & leave.

And the dead BG's parents would play the media that he was a GOOD boy, your store would get hit with a civil suit, you might go to jail, and your parents would lose everything.

I agree with another poster. TAKE a CCW class...and study the laws of your state.

 

[V4Vendetta]

I read it. Where are you going that the government will stay out of your business? I'll go with you if there's such a place.

I'll go on a permanent camping trip. I'll live up in the remotest part of Alaska with my dog, my little cabin. Eat what I catch & hunt. Cut my own wood for fire & get a little dog sled team so I can go to the nearest town for canned pears, ammo & such.

 

[hso]

V4,

You need to ground yourself in reality instead of youthful hubris.

What folks here are telling you is how to work within the system you currentlty live in and not what you wish you lived in.

Defending your family goes beyond the Moment. What comes after is also important. No one here is telling you to be some bed wetting simp. We are telling you to give up TV training and learn what actually works.

If there's a lethal threat you treat it as serious as a rabid bear attack. You don't posture. You don't bluff. You don't hesitate.

If a BG comes in give him the goods. If he points a gun treat it as if he's going to kill everyone in the building. If he's leaving make sure he goes without hurting anyone.

 

[strambo]

If you end up leaving the "lower 48" because of a rash action, who will protect your family the next time? You gotta be around to protect your folks and that means handling the threat (problem 1) and staying out of jail and/or Alaska (problem 2). I lived in Fairbanks for 31/2 years, I'm sure I've met some folks who were avoidin' something.

 

[bogie]

A suggestion...

If someone can walk straight in, the place needs a counter or something partition off the entry/waiting area. What sort of business is it?

 

[strambo]

Down to specifics...Consider the fields of fire from where you sit. Is there a clean shot from you to where the perp most likely will be. What cover is available to you, what cover is available to the perp (is there a freezer full of ice cream next to the checkout etc...?) Is your Dad in danger from your rounds based on the angles considered above? What ammo in shotgun and what is beyond the target area within your field of fire? Wall, window, Day-care across the street?

After considering these things, engineer the store as necessary so that you have cover, your dad has cover and the perp does not. Where your desk is and/or where you would shoot from (your point of domination) along with where the perp is likely to be will determine the fields of fire and angles. What are the blind spots? If the perp came in with, or has an accomplice outside, can/will you see him?

Your biggest advantage is you can plan and engineer the battle before it ever happens. Of course it won't go exactly as planned, but deviating from a plan is infinitely easier than coming up with a plan on the fly and under pressure.

 

[wdlsguy]

If a guy tries to hold up my store, I'll be at my station with a shotgun under the desk.

Maybe, maybe not. The shotgun is a good idea, but you should have a handgun somewhere on your body as well. You might want to beef up your desks to provide cover from incoming rounds. You and your dad might want to wear body armor also.

 

[rustymaggot]

i disagree with much of your plan.

Don't ever chamber a shell to scare a BG. The only sound they should ever hear is the safety clicking off or the BOOM of the shotgun.

A mexican stand-off isn't the problem. You point the shotgun at the BG. You inform him that he needs to leave right now. If he says that he'll kill your dad make sure that it's aimed at his head when you pull the trigger.

If the BG has already turned and is leaving you may not have legal justification for shooting him. You certainly have plenty of justification for drawing a bead on him and making sure that he doesn't turn around before leaving and shoot anyone.

You're not a cop and your job isn't to hold him. You're only desire is that no one harm your family. That means not giving him a chance to harm them. You either kill him or force him out of the building and then hold the fort until the cops get there.

headshot seems risky to me. why not chest shot. less chance of missing if your a bit off target.

 

[Tomcat1066]

My 2 cents on this topic is simple. First, you should keep in mind the legal ramifications of your actions even if you don't care about your own wellbeing. If you use illegal deadly force, the store itself could be found liable for having a firearm on the premises without giving proper instruction. If your Dad owns this business, then HE may face legal action.

If you fire to defend your Dad, then everything should be ok as I understand NC laws on the use of deadly force. But if you draw as the BG is leaving, then you have stepped over a line. Even if he freezes, you've now used force in a situation where your life wasn't in danger. Not good for you. You may go directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200 and no chance to skip out on an extended camping trip.

Take the time to study what those who have dealt with these situations have done that worked, as well as what hasn't. You can ALWAYS learn from the good and the bad (if nothing else, what not to do). "Wasting" the badguy, while not something I would cry about, also wouldn't do a lot to help us other gun owners either.

Take the advice given here. Take some classes and LEARN. You may not plan on your family's death being from anything other than old age, but would it be better for you to be in prison when that happens?

Tom
who's glad to see you can have a gun in the store at least, since you can't have one at home.

 

[V4Vendetta]

Thanks for all the advice folks. I plan to do some more reading up on the NC gun laws. What's wrong with drawing on him as he's leaving, if I just make him get on the floor spread eagle? That way, I can hold him there until the cops show up. I don't want to be one more guy that cause trouble for us gun owners. I was serious about moving to Alaska though. I'm tired of the politics & the junk in the citys. Just live like Jeremiah Johnson.

The rounds in the shotgun will be 00 Buck. The area behind the perp would be the glass door. If the BG had back-up outside, I could see them. There are a few homes across the street. Would the 00 Buck have too much penetration?

 

[Tomcat1066]

00 buck might not do anything to the houses across the street, but it could make things interesting for any pedestrians walking outside. Remember to take into account what is beyond your target, and that will probably take care of itself.

The problem, at least as I see it, is that drawing a weapon is in and of itself an act of deadly force (IIRC). While I personally don't see a problem with apprehending the badguy, you have still used deadly force when it wasn't necessary...when your life or the life of another wasn't in direct danger.

As for moving to Alaska, have fun! To dang cold up there for me

Tom

 

[rustymaggot]

Thanks for all the advice folks. I plan to do some more reading up on the NC gun laws. What's wrong with drawing on him as he's leaving, if I just make him get on the floor spread eagle? That way, I can hold him there until the cops show up. I don't want to be one more guy that cause trouble for us gun owners. I was serious about moving to Alaska though. I'm tired of the politics & the junk in the citys. Just live like Jeremiah Johnson.

The rounds in the shotgun will be 00 Buck. The area behind the perp would be the glass door. If the BG had back-up outside, I could see them. There are a few homes across the street. Would the 00 Buck have too much penetration?

00 buck has adequate pennitration for stopping a bad guy. birdshot doesnt. birdshot wont hurt the guys across the street much but then it wont reliably stop the bad guy either. its a toss up between pennitrates enough and pennitrates too much. you give up one to get the other. best thing is to make sure your buckshot goes thru a badguys chest before heading out into the street. he should at least slow the shot down a bit.

look up the box of truth website as well as firearmstactical and look at the recomendations they talk about for shotgun ammo. better yet, get some butcher paper and see what patterns your gun is making at what ranges so you know for sure where your shots are headded. a pistol as a back up is a very good idea, keep it on you.

 

[V4Vendetta]

I won't be able to get a pistol for another few years. That's why I've put so much research into finding out shotgun info. I'll be 18 in 2 months. You have to be 21 to get any handgun in my state.

The BG will be around 30 feet away from me & the shotgun if that matters.

 

[Manedwolf]

I won't be able to get a pistol for another few years. That's why I've put so much research into finding out shotgun info. I'll be 18 in 2 months. You have to be 21 to get any handgun in my state.

The BG will be around 30 feet away from me & the shotgun if that matters.

I suggest seeing if a local range offers a defensive shotgun course. Many do. As someone on another thread said, having a gun doesn't mean you're "armed" any more than carrying around a guitar makes you a musician.