How could I have handled this better?

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why stand your ground against the bully? You'll never see him again, and he's obviously at fault. Start apologizing, and if that doesn't work then start hitting yourself in the head violently. Exclaim something like "No uncle Joe, I won't be your princess any more" Nobody beats up a crazy guy.

Just hit yourself in the head multiple times and run away screaming "bees! bees! bees!"

This used to work for me when I worked in the fast food industry. As a teenage manager, you get a lot of beligerent jerks who want to chew someone because they don't like how their life turned out or something. I don't know how many times I curled up into the fetal position on the ground behind the counter, covered my head and said "No daddy, don't hit me any more. I won't do it again. I'm sorry. No daddy, stop daddy"

It's messed up, I know... but I once had an African American 30-something woman come up to the counter with a cheeseburger that had a tomato on it. She asked for a manager, at 9pm I was the manager. "How can I help?" "There's tomato on this cheeseburger!" "I'm sorry, totally our mistake. Let me replace it, sorry for the inconvenience [ringing it in on the register] Ma'am, Did you order it without tomato?!" "Is your cracker a$# calling me a liar? Worthless cracker freckle face pimple popping no good can't get a better job than Wendy's illeterate cracker white trash peckerwood" Just like that, I'm not kidding, that woman had her insult in line before she even got to the counter.

"No, ma'am, not calling you a liar at all. We're replacing our mistake. I'm commenting to tell you that our Single cheeseburger comes with tomato unless you tell us that you don't want it. I'm very sorry that I offended you"
"You wouldn't have said it if I weren't Brown."

That's when I hit myself in the head twice and fell to the ground in the fetal position, covered my head and started chanting like I was abused as a kid. She didn't know what to do. She said something like "crazy %@#$" one of the employees gave her a cheeseburger and the employees started crowding around me because they had no idea what I was up to. I guess it was kinda convincing coming from a guy who was normally pretty serious.

Had another fella show up at 4pm (right after we did bank cash deposit) and ordered some food. Then tried to pay with $100 bill. The employee couldn't make change from her drawer, so she told him he'd have to wait while she asked the manager for change. Came to my office told me the situation, I went to the other cash drawers and came up with $100 in $5 bills and went up to the counter. The man sees this and says "you don't have any f'ing 20's? What kinda place is this, you don't have any f'ing 20's?" "No, I just got back from the bank, we deposited everything but $5's and $1's for change. I'm just following the rules, I don't want to get fired." "That's total bull$#@% I'm not taking fifty 5 dollar bills. f^#% stupid. your food is horrible anyways!" "Sorry sir, when they tear this place down I'll recommend they build a bank in it's spot! Have a good one!" ya, I know, I'm a smart alec, but there were cops in the lobby (shift change is at 5 in that town) and I kinda wanted to see him get angry in front of four local policeman.
He starts back toward the counter "What did you just say? Wise %@#$ punk kid, you don't know what you just started." I'm looking at the police now, they're looking at me like I'm gonna cause them some paperwork. He picks up a pile of trays and chucks them over the counter. I and another employee duck, and he yells some other explicatives... turns around and finds two policeman staring at him. He's shocked. "go ahead and turn around sir. Do you have any weapons that we should know about?" they frisk him... read him his rights and escort him out. I then spend an hour, on the clock, at the police station filling out a police report. Then another thirty minutes a few days later on taped interview with a detective.

There's quite a few other stories, but those are the funniest ones.
 
...comments from a judge...

I had the privilege (seriously!) of serving on jury duty last week in Texas. The case revolved around whether the shooting (and consequent death) was the result of self-defense or not (aka "murder").

I didn't make the final jury of 12, but I got an earful of what "self-defense" is in Texas.

From what the judge told us last week, had you drawn or even showed your weapon, you could have been charged with aggrevated assault, along with other possible criminal charges, not to mention civil charges. In Texas - outside the home, mind you, where "Castle Doctrine" generally does not apply - unless life-threatening force is enacted or threatened against you, you cannot pull iron first, legally. Yes, this guy came at you, but only with words; and unless he pulled a gun or knife first, your "legal obligation" is to retreat, not fight.

Your scenario was very much like what the judge used as his example, so I feel comfortable making this statement here. Please don't ask "What if" because that is where the judge stopped, so I stop here, too.

Of course, I am talking Texas law here - but for any fellow Texans, there's the word of the judge.

Preacher Man
 
unless he pulled a gun or knife first, your "legal obligation" is to retreat, not fight.
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What if he takes a swing at you? Can you pull it then? My understanding is that you have to be in fear of your life. Is a physical assault sufficient?
 
What if he takes a swing at you? Can you pull it then? My understanding is that you have to be in fear of your life. Is a physical assault sufficient?
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Ummmmmm....I remember the judge talking about that, but I don't exactly recall his specific words. I believe it was semi-situational: that is, you have to believe your life is in danger (Tom Cruise: "emminent danger?" Jack Nicholson: "Is there any other kind???") and your gun is the only means of denfese - you cannot retreat or provide any other defense. In other words, it's a last resort.

I was surprised at how subjective some of the law is. For example, there was a section about if a BG is coming at you with a gun from an "immediate distance" you can use deadly force. What's an immediate distance??? The lawyers were arguing this: for the person who can't hit the broad side of the barn from inside, immediate threat may be only a few feet. For others who are more proficient handgunners, it could be a hundred yards. See what I mean? The question is "How do I determine how proficient this BG is?" I guess we gotta call a time-out, discuss his handgun ability and determine his level of competency, so that I know when I can shoot.

Basically, it has to be tit-for-tat. He cusses at you, you can cuss back. He swings at you, you can swing back...unless he's coming at you with fire, smoke and lightening coming out of his eyes & ears and you can't bug out. Then, and only then, you can show your weapon - legally. Now, a fair-minded cop might not be quite that literal, allowing you to do a "preventative" draw, but as far as the court goes, that's it.

I'm not a lawyer...I'm only repeating what I heard last week.

FWIW, if you ever get a chance to go to court as an observer and watch the whole show, it's quite interesting. And (here's a shocker) it's NOTHING like what we see on TV.

Preacher Man
 
No offence, But what it?

Qutoe: Just as an aside, I am almost always open-carrying when filling up at gas stations. I wonder how this jerk would have reacted to that ???
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IMHO, about carrying open is, first, this guys fuse was lit from the other side of the pump, words were exchanged, once the fuse went off, and he became ANGRY, who knows where his sanity starts and ends, with that in motion?

Consider: The law works BOTH ways in a court of law, and if he did come around, and was within 5 or 6ft distance from you, and your holstered gun, and he, in a split second, saw your gun, then rushed you, the gun will only come into play one way or another, used by you, or maybe used by him. And, in a court of law his defence will say: YOU started the insults, you threatened him with an attempt to draw out, by placing your hand on the gun. He reacted at that point to save his life, and attacked you, maybe even shot you with your own gun (after all, in truth, He was BENT OUT OF SHAPE) and witnesses are not so good, after a cleaver Defence lawyer gets thru with their memory of the events, some 6 months later, maybe longer, along with, many witnesses decline to get involved in such matters, whether because of fear for getting involved, or simply because they don't want to get involved in a long ongoing pretrial deposition/s and simply want to get on with their lives. Basically, saying, "it's your/their problem, not mine.

Sad that the world spins this way, both in the minds of good people and bad people, both counting on Lawyers, who's job it is to convict, or get their client off, (by any means) ruled by a system that on it's best day, gives either side a 50-50 chance of winning or losing a case.

Basically IMO, open carry in this case, as well as many others, is an invitation to increase the anger of a situation, and invites a very possible, worst case scenario, as opposed to concealed carry, where at least, the bad guy has no clue, nor reason, to turn on you, given the distance between you and him was already under 15ft, more like 5ft, and that favors the Evil driven Anger of a Bully, madman, etc., to attack you because you, etc., as you, the good guy, threatened his life (in fact, only because he saw the gun in Open Carry) and it could well be what sets off the final explosion of a man/s, thriving/intent on punishment, on you.

To me, it's an invitation to trouble at such a close point of contact, and is,
in most cases, of such close contact, when the crap hits the fan.

You may be right, but in 50% of such a case, you would, like many others, spend that time in grief, knowing you were right, but the system supported the unarmed, Bad guy's, and his, lawyers, story.

IMHO, open carry is showing your hand, (no element of surprise) good or bad, and carrying concealed, leaves you with the element of surprise and IMHO, in a court of law, a jury, that fact would stand up far better IMO, if the guy came at you, hit you first, and then you pulled, would support your case, and not his, as being threatened, for his life, because he Saw the gun, and you, in his story, had started to pull it out. And in truth, right or wrong, you could be right, dead right, or convicted, in jail, right.

Stay stealth, do not advertise, as even the best at heart, seeing a gun, can feel threatened, because they don't know you, nor understand, other than, only cops and bad guys, or nuts, in "todays" world, have guns and, cops have badges or uniforms, and you don't, or the OP didn't.



LS
 
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on the "line-up" at the gas station thing...many high-trafficked stations have an unwritten "flow" that the customers just get in the habit of obeying. Mind you, this guy has probably been filling up his gas at this station every week for years now...has seen many people "butt in line" and feels like he needs to do something about it.

I'm not taking sides on the matter...just saying, from my personal experience in high-density areas...

I've been on both sides of the fence. In DC/MD/VA it's not uncommon for stations to have things run this way - to keep things efficient and fast-moving. The first time I went, I got my head bit off....I then followed the "rule" after that and it was indeed much quicker/more efficient. And then, I became the one irritated with the other drivers who were oblivious to the "rule"...*groan*


And, I tend to agree with the tit-for-tat idea as a whole. Threatening by flashing a weapon has gotten at least one person I know shot up real good, and a few others into some very tight/hot spots. The situations were 100% preventable...and they were to blame for allowing and encouraging it to escalate. Don't "flash" until you're ready to kill or die trying.



You did good...your Dad better...

Give him my thanks for serving our country.
 
Basically IMO, open carry in this case, as well as many others, is an invitation to increase the anger of a situation, and invites a very possible, worst case scenario, as opposed to concealed carry, where at least, the bad guy has no clue, nor reason, to turn on you
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Well, you're welcome to your opinion, and who knows how somebody not quite in their right mind will react...???

OTOH, my experience so far has been that folks either don't pay any attention to visible sidearms, or else they act a little wary. There has been a couple occasions where I believe this might have possibly prevented trouble, either out in the woods or on my own property.

Overall, I prefer to avoid or avert trouble rather than face when and whether to draw from concealment. In Montana at least, I don't think suddenly rushing someone at the sight of a legally holstered sidearm would go well with the law.
 
...

Oh, I understand your thinking, and in many, over 15ft or more, situations, it is a sign of posture, that can and does avert a crime on you. But, as was the case, here at a gas station, 5ft separating you and him by a gas pump, and he does not see your gun, but when he surprises you, as your filling up, on the other side, and sees your gun.. that's where the element of surprise is in HIS favor, not yours IMO.

But, meaning no disrespect, I'm sure, or hope, you're one of the faster draws, within your County, at being surprised at 5ft or 6ft by a BG.

One last thought, IF a bad guy is determined, and desperate enough, you can count on this.. In our 360 degree view world, a BG will not show his hand (his hidden gun) until he has the element of surprise along with a bead and trigger-rdy pull, on you, as he knows you have a gun, and in my best thinking, will not take a chance with you touching your gun, and may well, want your gun, along with your wallet, car.

You can't have it 360 degrees all the time, as one is stealth and has intent, you are a known gun carrying target to some of the badder people roaming around, with a hidden gun, and a hidden agenda.

Best of luck to you, if ever..

My best,


LS
 
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I'm sure, or hope, you're one of the faster draws
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Faster than when carrying concealed anyway ;)

I don't want to turn this into another open carry debate, but the original poster did ask what he might have done different.

I'd sure like to hear about all the cases where some determined badguy or unstable jackass jumped a private citizen wearing a visible sidearm...??? Seems like there is a weekly thread about some idiot confronting a THR member while either with or without his/her CCW.

Gas stations being a common place to get car-jacked, I would just as soon deter trouble as deal with it. There's another issue, but I won't get into that here.
 
Quote: Faster than when carrying concealed anyway ;)
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I agree.. unless one has one of those under the long sleeve spring driven carriers that puts the gun right in one's pointing arm's, hand, at ya.. :what:

We're on the same page.. lol ;)


In 99.2% of your statement, I have to agree with ya.. :D


LS
 
1: The gas from the pump and a simple match or threat of a match would have gotten enough of his attention to protect yourself.

You have got to be kidding me

2: Why dont you mind your own business.

This pissed him off.

And since your question is about how you could have better handled the guy getting pissed off you might want to consider the cause and not the effect.

Ever since I started to carry I am very very passsive. And I never used to give bullies an inch. I am 6'2" and 230 pound ex-boxer. I can fight. but now that I carry, I let a lot of crap go.
 
In A Nutshell

Quote: Ever since I started to carry I am very very passsive. And I never used to give bullies an inch. I am 6'2" and 230 pound ex-boxer. I can fight. but now that I carry, I let a lot of crap go.
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There is the answer to how to carry, and be smart about the/your power at hand.

Any other attitude with a gun, and I'm running to get away from trouble that will find trouble and, that would include anyone pulling out the gas pump and taking out a lighter.. Suicide, and reckless endangerment of others with gas going everywhere on fire, to be proven right, is not my style, nor do I hang with any that would think that way, other than the one, and others, that agree with the above quote: as stated above.


LS
 
Did fine, but any comments that are not submissive aggravate people already stewing over something that has nothing to do with you. You were just an excuse for this guy to express some of that pent up anger. I've seen a lot of this with the liberals and their frustration with Bush and Co. They go off for apparently no reason and blame the world for everything, it's wierd, but it is what it is.

The only thing I could suggest you do differently, hindsight being so clear and all, is to simply be apologetic. If the guy goes off the deep end, it's not because you aggravated the situation, it's because he's unstable. And not being party to the escalation helps keeps your fanny out of hot water should it get ugly.
 
You did ok because it turned out ok. Next time try this. I don't talk much to begin with and when involved in such a situation I will not say a word. You might be surprised at how much control you have over a situation if you maintain your position and just ignore stupid people.

You should have been armed with both lethal and non-lethal weapons. (ALWAYS, EVERYWHERE)

Get in shape and stay in shape. Not only might it save you and you loved one's life if it comes down to a fight, it's just a good way to live live to it's fullest.

Look in the mirror, develop the "Don't $#%@ with me stare". It works.
 
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You said it right.

I agree now, that I should have simply kept my mouth shut.
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I've been carrying for several years now. One thing that has always stayed with me from my CHL class was the comment of our instructor that having made the choice to carry, we had to learn to let go when things irritated us.

Good advice for anyone carrying. I think if someone's personal safety is paramount, you need to carry. If their honor is more important, they'd be better off without a firearm.
So glad you and your Dad are OK. My Dad's 85 and a WWII vet too.
 
Look in the mirror, develope the "Don't $#%@ with me stare". It works.
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Yes, this works very well. I somehow developed this look unintentionally in high school. I never did understand why all of my friends got picked on and caught up in fights but I never did. Someone let me in on the "big secret" when I was a senior. They said that no one picked on me because everyone thought I was crazy because of the look I always had on my face. I think it still works without me even knowing that is what I'm doing. :evil: Head down slightly, no smile (at all), look straight ahead. I shouldn't have to say (but I am) that High School may be a little(read a lot) different than a madman at the gas pump but I'd say that this particular one kind of sounds like he was in a 18 year old mind set...

Sometimes ignoring people completely works, sometimes it gives them a reason to make you pay attention. I say awknowledge (sp) them and say nothing (in this type of case). Stare them down instead (keep a good posture as well). Stand up straight but don't "swell up" too much. They might see this as a challenge. Of course my "run-ins" are of a much less intense nature for the most part. I've had very few (one) people go off like this at me.
Good advice for anyone carrying. I think if someone's personal safety is paramount, you need to carry. If their honor is more important, they'd be better off without a firearm.
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Good point Ezypikins.
 
sometimes doing absolutely nothing but looking them in the eye works.
This also works in negotiations, don't say anything until you've come to a discreet conclusion...let them talk themselves out of the fight, or out of screwing you on the sale.
 
I was once in a similar situation, only with an irate woman. As commented above, it was a situation where the "locals" had a predetermined flow order at the gas station, only there were no posted signs or painted indicators on the concrete, etc.

The woman was simply impossible to rationalize with. She was in a total rage, and wouldn't listen to a word I had to say. I honestly believed she would come after me, or failing that, at one of the passengers in the car (including my grandmother). So I made sure to stay between her and the car, and simply went mute. Watched her movements like a hawk, shrugged as much as possible, and denied her every opportunity at escalation. She waved her hands around, spit at me, threatened to run me over, you name it.

Then things got worse. She enlisted a fellow local, who had pulled in on the other side of the pumps, a guy who was about twenty years older than me, but several inches shorter. He clearly knew who she was, and understood my imaginary "violation." He took her side immediately, and made things infinitely more difficult. Now I had to watch two people, keep between them and the car, and remain as impassive as possible.

I am convinced that, had the situation gone on any further, one of them would have done something physical. Luckily, filling gas takes a very short time, and I was able to quickly dump the nozzle on the ground and replace the gas cap without turning my back to them. At this point the woman was red in the face, and the guy was openly screaming. I quickly said "Look, the guy inside the booth is calling the cops on you," and used their momentary disorientation and concern to hop in the car, and gunned it out of there. Thank god, neither attempted to follow.

Not sure what you can really do except be prepared to defend yourself. Whoever nominated pepper spray was very wise - that will really incapacitate someone like "the irate gas station guy" and pose none of the gas-ignition threats that a firearm would, let alone the immense legal ramifications.
 
wow, I never knew people got so worked up about a gas pump line. Gas stations must be different in other areas (I've driven to work in something like 12 states when I was a road warrior) than they are around here or anywhere else I've filled up. That's crazy. I can't picture a setup that would lean towards one way traffic for ease of flow but hey, apparently they are fairly common... I'm going to be a little more alert when pumping gas from here on out.
Like I said, I keep my head down a little, stand up straight, stare straight ahead, no smile, a little clench of the teeth, don't say a word. They'll calm down hopefully. If not, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
 
First of all, why in the world would people line up for one pump when another pump is open?

Second of all, your topic brings up one of my biggest fears, which is being in a physical altercation while I am carrying my gun and the other person has no weapon. I still do not have clear in my head what to do in this situation because of the fact that the person does not pose a lethal threat to me, except for the fact that now they are fighting me and may gain access to my weapon.
 
I wouldn't stay within 2 metres of a belligerent person if I could help it.

I think that retreating into the car (if possible) is an option that hasn't been mentioned yet. Might give a bit of time or space to react.

Gas stations are quite often targets for robberies so they are not safe places.
 
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