How could I have handled this better?

[Charles Martel]

I was visiting my Dad in Florida and we decided to drive to Ave Maria to see the new town and school. On the way we stopped for gas. There was a short line for the driver's side pump and no line for the passenger's side pump. My Dad told me to drive around and face the other way so I could fill up on the passenger's side pump.

After starting to pump gas I heard a voice from the other side of the pump say, "Hey, why don't you wait in line like everyone else!" I said, "There was no line for these pumps." He said, "The rules apply to everybody else but you, don't they?" And I said, "Why don't you mind your own business."

At that point the guy goes ballistic (I've not yet laid eyes on him) and runs around the pump shouting "What the f*** did you say? You just picked the wrong guy!! I'm going to take you down!" He's 25 years younger than me, in good shape and about 2 inches shorter. I'm in my mid 50's,

I stood my ground and quietly told him to do what he had to do. I never took my eyes off him and he got progressively more agitated. I simply stood there watching him closely. My Dad (86 years old) finally heard this guy shouting and stood up out of the car and said to they guy to calm down and leave us alone. The guy continued to rant until finally he just up and left.

After I got back in the car my Dad (WWII vet) said to me that the guy didn't want to take us both on! I do have a carry permit but was not carrying.

Observations and suggestions.

 

[TallPine]

I've never heard of such a thing as driver and passenger side pumps. Around here everybody just pulls in where-ever there is an opening. I myself sometimes back up to a pump to be able to get to the correct side (older vehicle with passenger side fill )

How could I have handled this better?

I do have a carry permit but was not carrying.

There's your answer right there

But if you have a cellphone, you should have dialed 911 just as soon as the guy got belligerent - if nothing else just to record the whole incident.

 

[Just Jim]

I armed myself and carry all the time because society has become very rude and threatening. Hell I am in my mid fifties and the changes in society that I have seen just make me more protective of my family and myself. It doesn't matter why society has changed, it's just the way it has become and the only way I see to deal with it is protect yourself.

The country is going to hell when a man will assault you over gasoline and even worse that I would have to kill him for assaulting my old arthritic body.

jj

 

[EAFO]

Florida is full of jackasses. I wouldn't even give him a second thought.

And with the new laws in FL, you have the right to defend yourself if you feel your life is being threatened. So that just further proves what kind of an idiot that guy was.

 

[ETXhiker]

You were within your rights, but...

If, after he said, "these rules apply to everyone but you", you had simply kept quiet and pumped gas, it might not have escalated. He heard "mind your own business" as a personal challenge, or even an insult to be answered.

I see CCW as a last ditch safeguard in these situations, only to be considered when all else fails. If I have to ignore a jerk to keep from shooting him, so be it.

 

[Lonestar49]

~ Salute ~ to your DAD

...

First of all, your WWII Dad's response was PRICELESS!!

Second, maybe it was a good thing, (Fate) that you were not carrying that day.

Third, being in the same age-boat as you, and having "the power-at-hand, has changed me in many ways..

Like when I took up flying back in 1975, it changed my way of driving, for the better, along with drinking (late at night, and alot) both, to avoid hangovers, and to be legal to fly the next day, with a clear head, a must in flying

And the same applied when I decided to increase my SD/HD from just 2 shotguns, and a 22 Ruger rifle, to the 3 guns listed below, and a 4th, a Sig P220, otw, but not sure what model it is.. But it's smaller than the standard size 220, and slightly longer than the 220 Carry, but same in height, width, and weight.

Needless to say, with the power at hand, my driving, along with my handling of any situation, like what you had, has changed, with the availability of any of the handguns I own, and for the better.

I drive much the same, flow with the traffic, let the rushed and inconsiderate get by if there's time, and space to change lanes, etc., etc. But, before I acquired my first pistol, I got pissed-off, and exchanged waves of one finger with any and all that didn't approve of whatever I did in their (Grand Prix professional driving ability's eyes and driving techniques) on over-crowded surface streets, or freeways, or my favorite pet-peeve, anything over 30mph in a residential area.

I have acquired more patience, a more forgiving nature, an ability to just sluff-off any road rage incident, that I just get caught up in, etc., etc.

The fact that I do have a means to protect my life, or any of my family or friends, if such a NUT, driven by Testosterone, and age difference, IN their favor, and their eyes, what they see of me, size wise, age wise, and my best quick answer to this is, with the gun, legally, and my will-power, in check, it really works out like the best poker face, bluff, and I win every hand, thus far, without a scratch, without drawing out, and without feeling like any of the nutballs have won the day over me, and my pocket Aces, so to speak.

I think, you did exactly the right thing, and even though many will say, you messed up by not carrying that day, as your father said so correctly, and from his ever-young time-tested heart (of a proven fighter/solder) and you won the day, because you didn't follow the sheep, in line, and used your dad's common sense to just go to the other side of the pumps, which IIRC, there are no one-way lanes in any of the Gas Stations I have been to throughout my life and some of this big country of ours.

Bottom line, this younger jerk got pissed that he didn't think of this, or, that he lacks common sense and had a chance to learn from it by you and your dad's simple move, but that obviously went over his head, like alot other experiences he and his like fail to learn by a simple change of life style, or life changes that seek, thru "learning" thru, change (for the better).

Change in many ways is a wonderful asset that most just piss away, thru one of many wasted efforts, that eat up wealth (of knowledge) and usually can bring disastrous results, in one way or another.



LS

 

[plexreticle]

There is a sickness in our society where people try to best each other and down everybody else. It's getting worse daily it seems.

Road rage, people fighting over parking spots, bully behavior are just the obvious examples.

I think you did well standing your ground.

 

[glockman19]

You handled it very well. Nothing to do but stand there and listen to him vent. You also had a very dangerous weapon in your hands too. the gas pump. Had he physically Confronted you. The gas from the pump and a simple match or threat of a match would have gotten enough of his attention to protect yourself.

Most importantly your elderly father was not hurt.

 

[Charles Martel]

It's funny. I read Strategies and Tactics regularly, but I was totally blindsided by this guys aggressiveness out of nowhere. I agree now, that I should have simply kept my mouth shut. No sense in aggravating anyone gratuitously, this despite him doing so.

I read here repeatedly that a defensive state of mind is essential - and I agree! But the conditions were so benign that I simply wasn't thinking along those lines.

Having a gun is very much a double edged sword. In Florida HE may have also been carrying. Who knows where pulling a gun would have led us.

He really crowded me which left me at a disadvantage. I didn't want to back down, but I also didn't want to give him the jump on me. I was standing square and felt that at the very least I should have turned 90 degrees to give him fewer targets of opportunity and at least give me an opportunity to recover from an attack.

I was glad it ended peacefully because I simply am too old for that kind of s***! I like the idea of having the mobile immediately available and calling at once.

 

[robmkivseries70]

Hi Charles,
When the guy left his pump and came at you ( moved in your direction) he became an aggressor in most jurisdictions. The pump nozzle was also the first thing I thought about in a defensive sense. Sounds like the guy wasn't smart enough to get around to the other pump and got ticked when he looked bad 'in his own mind' (using the term loosely of course).
Best,
Rob

 

[Trope]

I've had a few situations where posturing like you did worked. I generally just hold my ground and maintain eye contact, and don't respond to any of the verbal nonsense that they spew. It seems to me that they're looking for a reason to provoke me further, but I'm not going to give them anything to fuel their rage. [kind of like dealing with my toddler, now that I think of it. ]

I'm sure that there may be a time where the posturing alone will fail. And if it should fail, it will probably fail badly. It can be a useful tactic, but I don't count on it alone. Always have backup.

The "MYOB" comment probably wasn't needed, though. The comment about no line for that pump was appropriate, but his response was not. I'd probably have just looked at him at that point with a pensive expression, as if to say "what are you talking about?" without really saying it. But then, I wasn't there, so I didn't get the more subtle signals that you did. You went with your gut, and it seems to have worked for you.

 

[BullfrogKen]

"Why don't you mind your own business" generally escalates a situation for those who are looking for a reason to seize upon to escalate it.

Nobody's hurt. Nobody's out anything. It sounds like it went as well as it could have.

Be sensitive to what you say and how you say it.

 

[The Amigo]

The best response to deescalate angry people is to ignore anything the say.

Hell Ive met some pissed guys that in my mind i knew they were wrong and an ow i'm sorry i did not know, has taken care of them. Lets them keep their pride.

Its said that the true Samurai is the one the wins the battles without having to use his hand or sword but the his most prized weapon the brain.

 

[Run&Shoot]

You done good. there are probably a few things that could have been done to de-escalate. On the other hand, I don't necessarily think we should always walk around on egg shells, soaking up insults in order not to offend a loud mouth.

The only way they ever learn to keep their trap shut and be more polite is to run up against a man that is going about his own business and won't take any guff.

I normally try the de-escalation route, but once in a while it just seems like the right thing to let the aggressor know that I could care less about his feelings and I am not backing down to save his semblance of manhood.

I do agree though it is good to take time to think of your Plan B in case standing your ground doesn't work by itself. A pocket gun is a start; like asking yourself why you didn't have yours with you? Do you need to change your thinking about when it "really isn't necessary"? Or do you need a better gun or rig suitable for carry all the time?

While I am no fan of the .380 I just bought a KelTec P-3At after the VT shootings because there was about 10% of the time I did not have my G23 with me. And when I did have a SW 642 even then it was a bit too bulky for some pants. The Keltec kind of emphasizes how minor the cartridge is and has reinforced the need to also have the G23 available as much as possible. But now I always have at least the P3AT, and most of the time it is a backup to the G23. Currently I m using an ancient leather pockect holster from my grand uncle, but have a Desantis Nemesis on the way.

Also in my 50s so I know what you mean about confronting a 20s or 30s aggressor. I still have decent muscle mass, but more fat too. One thing I know is that I have a lot more determination than any punk will have, just a matter of how much damage happens in the mean time. Best to avoid if possible, or call police if possible, but sometimes you just have to put punks in their place. If you don;t who will?

 

[gunsmith]

the guy was a moron, and a busybody. FL seems to have lots of those.
carry.

 

[SniperStraz]

First of all, you should have been carrying your weapon or at the very least had it in your vehicle. Second, it seems from your story that you made absolutely no effort to defuse the situation. Rather, it seems as if you wouldn't have minded getting into a little scuffle one bit.

I stood my ground and quietly told him to do what he had to do.

When it comes to your safety and your father's safety I don't think that pride should be an issue. It seems that it was in this case. You were probably thinking "This young punk thinks he's faster and stronger and tougher? I'll show him what it is to be a real man!" At least that's what it seems like from just that one phrase in your OP. I may be going in totaly the wrong direction with this and if so I appologize. You asked, I'm only telling you what I've thought up after reading your post. Remember the two biggest rules in SD. 1. Always carry and be skillful and practiced with your weapon. (ok that may be three rules) 2. Be prepared to use it, but always try your hardest not to. (that may really be two rules) So... there it is, your 2(5) first rules in SD. Whatever the case, I'm glad you and your father are safe, and that you learned something from this incident.

 

[The Amigo]

Be careful in some states putting a punk in his place is called verbal aggression or disturbing the peace chose your words wisely if this is what you chose to do which i do not recommend. A simple leave me alone if your armed is sufficient intead of a your a you XXXKNKJNJND! catch my drift.

 

[Autolycus]

Just ignore people. Eventually they will run into someone who is tougher than them and even more short tempered then them.

 

[Charles Martel]

Tecumseh, love your moniker.

SniperSnaz, I definitely was not trying to escalate the situation after the MYOB remark.

IF I had been carrying, when would it have been appropriate to pull the gun?

 

[SniperStraz]

Well Mr. Martel I was only telling you what it read like to me. I'm glad to hear that that was not the case. Everyone will tell you different things about when you should have pulled a weapon. Answers could range from "never leave your vehicle without a gun in your hand" to "your life wasn't in danger so there was no reason to even be thinking about shooting" As far as I'm concerned, and I believe that I'm in the minority, I don't want to pull a gun unless I'm going to shoot. It should be one fluid motion. Draw, aim, double tap! My reasoning is this: I realize that just the sight of a gun has scared potential attackers off without a shot fired. On the other hand I feel that if I rely on the "scare factor" it may come as a surprise if they don't get scared. By then its too late. It all depends on how threatened you felt. I think that if you feel threatened and it's a reasonable fear, even if the attacker is 10 yards out and has a baseball bat in his hand, you don't have to wait until he hits you. Shoot him right there. If you feel like it's just a punk running his mouth off it would be really sad to kill a guy just because he can't control his mouth.
Well, that's my .02. Take it or leave it. Stay safe.

 

[BigO01]

Rules at a Gas Pump ?

When he spouted off about rules I would have asked him to please show me on the pump where those so called "RULES" were posted .

The only things on my local pumps are the octane levels of the different grades , warnings on getting in and out of you car while fueling and using cell phones all due to the risk that a static electricity discharge could cause a fire . O yes there are warnings that not paying for you gas is a crime and you can have your license revoked if you do that too .

Other than that the only rule is pull up and put gas in your car , gas can or whatever .

As long as the hose reaches your vehicles fill tube you aren't doing anything wrong and you should have told the fool that .

 

[Jack19]

I think you did fine and would tend to agree with what others have said. However....

Always....Always....Always....

Carry something less lethal than a firearm.

For me, it's Fox Pepper Spray. Comes in your choice of sizes.

On the other hand, someone getting in my face at a gas pump, might find themselves doused in gasoline and me producing a Zippo. Sure as heck would make me un-ass the AO if I was the other guy.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Always....Always....Always....

Carry something less lethal than a firearm.

I am really surprised that it took the thread this long until this comment was made. I carry Fox pepper spray, along with my gun. I think a jury would look poorly upon the use of deadly force when the aggressor does not have a weapon, but having the OC out and ready is always the right move when you have an aggressor advancing. I do not live in FL, so I cannot accurately comment on what would be the best time to use lethal force in that state.

Doing the monday morning QB, I would recommend using a little more verbal etiquette (easy for me to say now, as I type this). I do not think you were trying to instigate a larger problem, but none of us knew what a Hot-Head this guy was either.
As he came into view, I would have my OC out and begin shaking it (weak hand). If your dad (or someone you knew) was outside of the car or could get out safely, I would instruct him to get the guy's license plate number. Besides getting the license number, it also gets your dad behind the guy, which has him "surrounded". If you had to fight, that gives you an advantage. I assume this guy was walking towards you, not charging/running. At 10-15 feet away, I'd take a step towards him with the OC out at arm's length and ready, and instruct him to "stop!". This clearly shows that you are standing your ground and he needs to back down. If he continues, my strong hand would be on my CCW. Within 10 feet, I would spray the OC in his face and step back slowly (or out of the wind/spray). This all assumes that he does not appear to be reaching for a weapon of any kind. In that case, I would draw, assess, and fire.

The verbal suggestion is good advice for all of us, including ME. Overall, you did well.

 

[johndoe1027]

I think you did okay. No one got hurt (whether he should have or not is barely debatable).
There are a million possible endings to the beginning of your story (as you already knew I'm sure).
Pull a gun?
Not at a gas pump unless you HAVE to. That would be after the pump was taken from me and after the pepper spray didn't work at all. Got to think about what else might blow up from the flash. I know they make it hard to blow up a gas station these days but I don't want to take my chances.
I think you did well, the MYOB comment was debatable (that was a lot nicer than what would have shot out of my mouth) but it could have been worse and did not warrant what ensued. I kind of hope that guy found someone later that day that changed his perspective.

P.s. I wouldn't have been able to hold my tongue as well as you did. But then again, I'm that guy's age... I am having less and less patience with idiots as time goes on. It's so hard thinking that I have to walk around on eggshells and take insults and let people be stupid (I'm not saying I'm the idiot police or that I should have any power over anyone ever). I just wish they weren't so abundant.... [/rant]

I would have asked him where the one-way sign was. After all, he is the one that sat in line for a gas pump where there was an empty on on the other side. Crazy.

Glad everything turned out OK for you.

 

[tank mechanic]

P.s. I wouldn't have been able to hold my tongue as well as you did. But then again, I'm that guy's age... I am having less and less patience with idiots as time goes on. It's so hard thinking that I have to walk around on eggshells and take insults and let people be stupid (I'm not saying I'm the idiot police or that I should have any power over anyone ever). I just wish they weren't so abundant.... [/rant]

It would be really hard for to hold my toungue as well. If some one starts spouting off they are going to get an ear full as well. I put up with so much crap all day I am not going to take it from some moron at a gas station.