Why the fear of government tyranny?

"It won't happen here" argument is an often repeated argument.

It's happened a lot of other places. Why hasn't it happened here?

Until now, we have had a healthy distrust of government power, we've been vigilant to defend our liberties, and we have retained the means to get rid of our government if it ever got totally out of hand.

Gun control advocates, and anti-Libertarians generally, want to change those conditions.

It's like a guy who says, "I've never driven drunk, I've always followed the traffic laws, and I've always worn my seat belt - and I've never been injured in a car accident. Therefore, it can't happen to me. Starting tomorrow, I'm going to drive drunk, break all the traffic laws, and forget my seat belt. I'm not worried, because car accident injuries can't happen to me."

The average lifetime is what? Around 80 years old? Look at all of the horrible things that have happened in the last 80 years. How many of them were predictable? ALOT can happen in one person's lifetime.

Listed under "Fear of Government" is a misconception of modern law and the Geneva Convention. A US citizen cannot be taken (to paraphrase) out of your home late at night and disappear. The Habeas Corpus is both a federal and state constitution article. The U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 9. It has only been legally suspended once that I am aware of, by President Lincoln, during the Civil War. The "enemy combatants" part refers to non military combatants on foreign soil. The Geneva Convention affords them no rights such as are reserved for uniformed combatants. I mention this, so the total misinformation about "midnight abduction" type events is not perpetuated. That doesn't mean that I don't watch my back, or trust "the law" to do everything right - witness the New Orleans lesson.
sailortoo
Semper Paratus (also)

Well if you study history you see some disturbing trends that this country is headed towards. The US is fast moving toward socialism. We are fast becoming a police state. In Virginia it seems more and more private police forces are coming into existance, to the point where you need a score card to keep up.

I hear a lot of people say that Nazi Germany could never happen again but I think it could, and likely will.

As long as we have the Second Amendment we have a chance to stand against such things. The minute we lose it we become slaves.

The government of the US was designed to be inefficient and slow down change. The founding fathers knew that a government that was too efficient, i.e. could react on a moments notice, was in danger of being too easily manipulated by either a charismatic personality or the will of a special interest group (whether a majority or minority). They sought to slow change down, sacrificing the efficiency for stability.

However, they also realized that it was still possible that a government could come into power that held a monopoly on all branches of government, and might be in a position to trash what they held as basic liberties. That is why they wrote the second amendment, to give the citizens of the country that one last avenue of recourse to avoid tyranny.

Read and remember Judge Koszinsky's dissenting opinion:

"The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed — where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once. "

4178 NORDYKE v. KING

Governments kill more people in this world than crime. A simple fact of life.
Think about it.
How many people were killed by the Nazi and Stalin regimes? Compare that terrifying number to the number of people killed by criminals.

Fear is probably the most significant factor in human logic. We must make governments fear us to keep them in line. Governments exist to serve us, not the other way around.

Without the right to keep and bear arms, the rest of the Bill of Rights - if enforced at all - becomes a mere "crime scene investigation" after the crime, conducted at the whim of whatever government is in place at the time.

"The dead, unarmed, guy was right" does not do much for me.

The Second Amendment is the backbone of the U.S. Constitution. Without it, we are subject ot the whims of politics.

How 'bout looking at it another way...

If you think we are "too civilized" for the need to be armed, think about this...what if you had no electricity, no telephone service, no internet and no radio/TV for two or three days? Two weeks? A month?

What if the shelves on your local grocery store went un-stocked for three days?

What if there was communication from any central authority for a few days? No local news, no CNN, no Fox News, no Comedy Central, no radio?

What if the guy knocking on your door is a wanted criminal, but you had no idea, because there was no "Amber Alert"?

Might a gun or two be handy to protect yourself?

This is the common condition in a large part of the world and the USA before the past 50 years of BLISS.

When hungry and scared, no one really cares about you...but you and yours.

Do not trust someone else to help you and do not so easily give up your right to protect you and yours.

Personally, I think our current President may be the worst we've had in my 51 years

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So you are young enough to not remember:

-Johnson - fighting the Vietnam War by "escalating" the conflict - i.e. personally ranking the military targets to be bombed in order of "least effective" to "most effective" from the White House (hoping for Viet Cong surrender) while 50K+ soldiers died. Rules of engagement. No clear objective. We lost, and many, many more Vietnamese died.

-Carter - Allowing Iran to fall to extremist Islam because of his distrust of the CIA. Leaving hundreds of US citizens behind the border - some of whom had to be rescued by Ross Perot.

-Bill Clinton. If you need anti-Bill of Rights or or anti-RKBA references here, just let me know.

ReadyontheRight - +1 for a perceptive comment. The MSM has poisoned the minds of the public with innuendo, error and flat out lies that keep them misinformed. Gobbels (Hitler's propogandist extraordinaire) was so right, claiming to tell a lie big enough and often enough, the people will believe it (paraphrased). Hopefully, we will again some day, have an honest journalism that reports, rather than editorialize on the front page (might even learn spelling and grammar, also).
sailortoo
Semper Paratus (also)

Marry me, snewbie!

Hopefully, we will again some day, have an honest journalism that reports, rather than editorialize on the front page

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Can you name a time when we did ????

And as another thought to the OP. Best guess is that approx 170 MILLION people were killed by their OWN governments during the last century (20th, 1901-2000).

Everyone recognizes Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Pol Pot, et al as monsters. You see a picture of the toothbrush mustache or Kim Jong Il's silly eyeglasses and you see "monster". Easy.

What's not so easy is recognizing monsters that exist in contemporary society. Hitler was enormously popular. He didn't seize power, he was elected into power. Re-elected too. His actions showed his true colors only when it was too late, after German citizens gleefully gave up their own freedoms for the common good of their country, their "Heimat".

Are you so arrogant to think Americans are any different from Germans of the 1930s? We are made of the same stuff, the same DNA. It's human nature to value charismatic leadership. Hitler was highly charismatic. Germans simply looked the other way when his policies ran counter to benevolence. Do you really believe that Germany, a center of technological and cultural progress in its day, had the simple misfortune to be populated by millions of dimwits? Americans are no different. Americans are awed by stirring oration, by a pretty face, by charisma, by "gravitas". Americans want to feel good; issues be damned. Need you look any further than certain recent Presidents, or the current crop of hopefuls for more proof of that statement?

If you study history, the events and actions that caused Hitlers to arise, you'll come to the disturbing realization monsters are very much alive and well today. The circumstances that led to their prominence exist as much as ever. Hugo Chavez, Kim Jong Il have brought their nations very close to tyranny. Count Pakistan's Musharraf as another one treading a very fine line. No, those countries aren't the US, but what separates us from them, really? Economic prosperity, sure. How's that going for you?

What happens when economic prosperity goes away? Few can envision a large-scale economic disaster striking this country, but what would it look like? What circumstances exist that threaten that prosperity? As a culture, what are we doing to ensure continued prosperity? Do you really believe that our elected representatives are some omniscient Einsteins that have figured out how to guarantee our continued prosperity and freedom? If you can honestly ask those questions and not feel just a little discomfort, you're living in dreamland. Dreams tend to be followed by a rude awakening.

As long as we have the Bill of Rights, I have no fear of government tyranny. Just don't confuse fear with a healthy amount of distrust.

By the way does it disturb you that the German word Heimat translates literally to Homeland?

I don't see the risk that he, or any other in the reasonably near future, will have the opportunity to become tyrannical to the point that armed insurrection is necessary.

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The risk is there, whether you acknowledge it or not. Also we must prepare for the distant future, not just the reasonably near future. We must preserve the RKBA for all time.

It worries me a bit that the Heller decision now before the Supreme Court spoke of guns which are "lineal descendants" of militia weapons of old. I expect to live to see directed energy weapons which will not be descended from any powder weapon, and I think we should preserve the ability of citizens to own those as well. In 200 or 300 years, we might need lasers and machine guns to fight an oppressive government.

Stephd do you have a cite for this.

It was very telling when Bush said he had no problem with a dictator as long as it was him.

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I would appreciate it. Not to knock you but to see what the context was.

A very good website I found doing research into why people should be armed well enough to defy Gov't.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

If anyone wants to see how to deconstruct a government, follow what Chavez has done in Venezuela; in his effort to create his "Socialist" vision. While he took too big of a bite this last go-round and did not get the results he wanted, just keep watching - he has six more years to keep trying.

On the other end of the spectrum, one of the most insightful observations I have run across was the statement that, "we are all just five missed meals from anarchy."

I will admit that I havnt read ALL of the posts but I read most of them.


Most ppl are pointing to this......

How many people were killed by the Nazi and Stalin regimes? Compare that terrifying number to the number of people killed by criminals.

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I have only seen one post about this....

Many think this could never happen in America....Tell that to 13.7 million American Indians.

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The history books in schools dont tell much about how the Native Americans were tricked and lied to time after time and how millions were Slaughtered moments after being DISARMED. Just read the books "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee". They were told to gather together for another treaty meeting and were told to "Leave their ARMS at camp" because they were not needed. After ALL of the Men, WOMEN and CHILDREN had gathered together, the soldiers 'opened up' on them with gatlin guns and howitzers murdering as many as they could.

so YES..it has happened on our soil and YES....I believe it can and most likely WILL happen again.

Our Government runs the People.....The People does not run the Government.

That's why.

A US citizen cannot be taken (to paraphrase) out of your home late at night and disappear. The Habeas Corpus is both a federal and state constitution article. The U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 9. It has only been legally suspended once that I am aware of, by President Lincoln, during the Civil War. The "enemy combatants" part refers to non military combatants on foreign soil.

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Jose Padilla, terrorist wannabe that he may have been, was a US citizen detained on US soil, based upon the orders of our president without being accorded the right to civilian legal proceedings for 3 1/2 years.

Furthermore, while the MCA only suspended Habeas Corpus in name for non-citizens, it might be used to designate a US Citizen an unlawful enemy combatant and to deny practical application of habeas (ie, a US Citizen designated as an unlawful enemy combatant might be denied access to civilian courts regardless of a habeas petition). Please notice that I say "might", because the law is (I believe intentionally) vague. I can easily see the current administration using this vagueness in their favor to designate US Citizens who have never left the US as enemy combatants, and detaining them indefinitely... anyone complaining would hear and endless litany of "national security... blah blah blah..."

Many think this could never happen in America....Tell that to 13.7 million American Indians.

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+1. Think it can't happen here? Just ask an Indian... if you can find one. Actually, around here we have some, they rose up in arms against both the Spanish and the first US governor of the territory, supposedly they still have his scalp as a sacred relic at the pueblo (this was told to me by a tribal member). Something to be said for standing up for yourselves...

Also, lets not forget the time that Patton and MacArthur led the army against a bunch of unarmed veterans petitioning for early release of their benefits.

And remember, that in the late 1930's there was almost a fascist coup led by industry leaders against FDR over the New Deal. The disenchanted vets from above were the intended rabble. US industry was uncomfortably close to the fascist regimes in Germany and Italy at this time.

It can very well happen here, and indeed to some extent it did happen in our nation's history.

Stephd do you have a cite for this.
Quote:It was very telling when Bush said he had no problem with a dictator as long as it was him.

I would appreciate it. Not to knock you but to see what the context was.

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Bush has actually said this sort of thing on three different occasions, two of them prior to becoming president. All three were “jokes” and sort of chatty, in that way he sometimes speaks offhand. I think the most recent one may have been in response to a question about him saying it. Personally, I am very disturbed by a leader who repeatedly jokes about being dictator or its benefits.

"You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier."
from Governing Magazine, July 1998

"I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't agree with each other, but that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator," Bush joked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD3xfT0c99g
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0012/18/nd.01.html

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it.”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=A09Ha5M82us

but I don't see the risk that he, or any other in the reasonably near future, will have the opportunity to become tyrannical to the point that armed insurrection is necessary.

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I don't think we are nearly to the point that armed insurrection is necessary. But I worry, sometimes, that tyranny might be only a mushroom cloud away. Can we really not imagine martial law if something like that happens? Can we really not imagine dissidents (say those who question whose nuke it really was) being rounded up? Can we not imagine Muslims being detained in mass without due process (presume it was the “Islamo-fascists” who are blamed? The situation could quickly become extremely ugly, though it might not reach the nastiness of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or even Pinochet (three of whom were US allies). If that happens armed insurrection might well become necessary.

Hopefully, though, we retain our ability to keep and bear arms in large enough, and diverse enough, numbers to prevent a tyranny in the first place. If there really is a rifle behind every blade of grass, its not only a deterrent to foreign invasion, its a deterrent to tyranny at home. This is why I encourage every peaceable person I know to own as capable of a weapon as they are able.

I was in the Colorado National Guard in Dec 1999. If I remember correctly half of the unit was at the armory & the other half was on call for Y2K (Remember THAT little blip?) .There was absolutely a plan in place to declare martial law. I am a firm believer that any one who wants to run this country............. shouldn't be allowed to

Why the fear of government tyranny?

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History.

Hell you want to talk Government Tyranny?
New Orleans/Katrina.

Criminals on the rampage and the cops go for the easy targets, disarming the citizens who weren't committing crimes but who REALLY had a pressing need for the means of self defense.

Unfortunately for the civilians the cops were clever enough to handle them one at a time (disparity of force). A group of cops enforcing those illegal orders would have had some serious second thoughts if confronted with an equally sized (and armed) group of civilians who said "um, no, we're just going to move along to safety now and you are going to let us."

We as a nation are only a few steps away from tyranny now, if weapons are banned, what is to stop the gov't from doing what ever they please.

Another important factor in all of this is the people put in place to enforce the laws. Hitler coerced the gestapo and SS to enforce his laws through brain-washing them and using facism. Stalin used similar things along with the constant threat of murder. If the people in positions to enforce unconstitutional laws remain educated and not brain washed, bribed, forced, ect to enforce illegal laws we won't have too much of a problem.

Right now I believe that there is enough sense in most of these people that that government control is not too much of a threat but it is not hard to envision a world where that could change.

In fact it has started to change because of the title Terrorism. Now people can be charged with terrorism because the government can't pin anything else on them or wants to throw the book at them. Kids making dry ice bombs in suburbia can be charged with terrorism. Fire works at school is terrorism. It is not too far off the McCarthy communist scare of the 50s.

We should stick to the constitution and no matter how bad we want to kill these "terrorists" we should remember that it is better to let 100 guilty men go free before convicting one innocent man.

Also I have a quote that describes this pretty well
"When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and purity of its heart."
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)

An armed man is a citizen.

An unarmed man is a subject---ie slave

51 and you haven't figured that out yet?? I knew it by the age of 6---its self evident and even a child can see the implications.