Why the fear of government tyranny?

Status
Not open for further replies.
you're assuming all of the military would agree with the government

So much would have to change in our country to turn our government tyrannical I'm not sure it would really be possible.

Folks have generally looked at what has gone on in the past few-to-20 years for evidence of tyranny. But you bring up a point... in the U.S., the military has generally considered itself independent of politics and sworn itself to the political powers of the day. In the history of the world, that is rarely what happens. What *generally* happens is that some army goes to war, wins, and then the general of that army establishes himself as the new head of the new government (a military coup). For a while, everyone expected G. Washington to do that as well. While we don't generally recognize a military coup as a threat to our way of life, it is there.

When only the army and the police have guns, why will they listen to the politicians, especially the politicians (not naming names so as to prevent the downward spiral of this thread) who abhor the military?

We have seen the police/"militia" disregard the Constitution and follow the orders of the political hacks of New Orleans. There is no reason to believe that any law enforcement or military personnel will use their own good judgment and refuse to participate in blatantly Unconstitutional activities. Katrina proves this to be true. It did not take training in Constitutional law for those LEOs to know that what they were doing was wrong.

A military coup is the last thing that I would expect to happen in this country, but it is not beyond the realm of possible.
 
I definitely agree with #3, and I'm beginning to understand #1, but I just don't get #2.
Perhaps you haven't heard of:

1. The Fugitive Slave Act, which not only empowered Federal Marshals to return escaped slaves to their masters, but empowered them to dragoon local citizens against their will into assisting them.

2. The Japanese Internment, which rounded up thousands of people, including numerous US citizens, purely on the basis of their ethnicity. Strangely, although this monstrous injustice was committed under the excuse that the victims were nationals (or ethnically similar) of an enemy power, similar mass roundups of other ethnic groups with whom the United States was at war DIDN'T take place. No mass roundups of US CITIZENS of German, Italian, Romanian, Hungarian, or Bulgarian ethnicity took place.

Is that enough tyranny for you?
 
I think the fears of the U.S. government turning tyrannical, or actually being a tyranny, are quite simply ridiculous on this board. And frankly, make us look very silly to outsiders.

We are currently a broad based, prosperous democracy (and yes, we are a democracy, a liberal democracy or "constitutional republic" if you prefer, but still a democracy) with strong civil liberties, and many, many checks and balances to keep us from being tyrannical before it comes to actually revolting against the government with our guns.

And if we do turn into a tyranny it will be some broad populistic movement that will have great support among gun owners.
 
I think the fears of the U.S. government turning tyrannical, or actually being a tyranny, are quite simply ridiculous on this board. And frankly, make us look very silly to outsiders.

It might be true if folks didn't give actual FACTS... from Katrina to wiretaps to ruling on eminent domain... of previously unthinkable government intrusions in the recent past. This "broad based, prosperous" democracy owes $29,000 for every man, woman and child in this country, with strong civil liberties ... such as the RKBA , protection from unreasonable search and seizure, right to due process... demonstrably eroding from just 20 years ago.

"Tyranny" in our lifetime is unlikely, but history tells us that it starts with disarming the populace.

There are no tin foil hats here, just facts and history.
 
I think the fears of the U.S. government turning tyrannical, or actually being a tyranny, are quite simply ridiculous on this board. And frankly, make us look very silly to outsiders.

The truth makes us look silly?

How much tyranny are you willing to accept?

We still have the power of the ballot box available to us. We should use it to restrict the power of government while we can do so without bloodshed. If we wait too long, it will be extremely painful.
 
No four words have lead to the deaths of more people than "It can't happen here"


“Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any
government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the
citizen to keep and bear arms. This is not to say that firearms should
not be very carefully used and that definite rules of precaution should
not be taught and enforced. But the right of the citizen to bear arms
is just one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in
America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.” - Hubert H. Humphrey
 
I have said it before, and I will say it again.

When our elected leaders refuse to be voted from office, what are you gonna do, vote harder?
 
all examples of possible tyranny come from the Bush administration, which will be gone in a year. Congress itself did not approve of quite few things he did in his second term, and unless the entire system agrees and is on the exact same page, a takeover cannot take place. It would take something much more powerful than a bad president to take away our rights anyway
 
My favorite quote from the Declaration of Independence

" He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance."

Considering that Congress passed the Interstate Commerce Act and used it to bypass very restricted federal powers in order to legislate everything we do, it seems particularly apropos today.
 
Hi DaveBeal,

Personally, I think our current President may be the worst we've had in my 51 years, but I don't see the risk that he, or any other in the reasonably near future,

Sounds like lobster syndrome. I just read a news report out of Colorado that a SWAT team entered a house with guns drawn and removed an 11 year old child. Why? Because the child had taken a fall and the family decided to look after the child's wounds themselves. A paramedic decided he didn't like the idea and sent the might of the state against the family because their religious beliefs do not include hospitals.

The baby boomers have spent so much time and energy 'doing something' that they have created worse problems than the problems they sought to address.

(That is my one rant for the month. )

Selena
 
until Bush came around, these sort of things werent even seen as possible. I think that he served as an example of how easily power can be abused even in a balanced system, but I dont see how that means that the balance can be removed. I think its just been a bad couple years, and all we need is a better president. But, I could be wrong...

Even so, I still dont think tyranny is an inherent risk that we will ever have to face in this country. We'll just, at worst, be unsatisfied and keep arguing. Thats my opinion, at least.
 
RP88, I am curious as to how you would define "socialism".
And I would make the case we are well along the road there.

Here is mine- a State that endeavors to "take care" of it's citizens, so as to provide services for them, and laws to regulate behavior for the peoples good.
Like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, OSHA, DEA,ATF, And about one jillion other agencies that cloak us with laws and rules.

This is another mans description, intro. by Roger Kimball-

Tocqueville got to the nub of the issue in his famous paragraphs, in Democracy in America, on “Democratic Despotism.” Where old-fashioned despotism tyrannizes over men, democratic despotism infantilizes them. Such despotism would, Tocqueville writes,


resemble paternal power if, like that, it had for its object to prepare men for manhood; but on the contrary, it seeks only to keep them fixed irrevocably in childhood; it likes citizens to enjoy themselves provided that they think only of enjoying themselves… . It willingly works for their happiness; but it wants to be the unique agent and sole arbiter of that; it provides for their security, foresees and secures their needs, facilitates their pleasures, conducts their principal affairs, directs their industry, regulates their estates, divides their inheritances; can it not take away from them entirely the trouble of thinking and the pain of living? … [This power] extends its arms over society as a whole; it covers its surface with a network of small, complicated, painstaking, uniform rules through which the most original minds and the most vigorous souls cannot clear a way to surpass the crowd; … it does not tyrannize, it hinders, compromises, enervates, extinguishes, dazes, and finally reduces each nation to being nothing more than a herd of timid and industrious animals of which the government is the shepherd.
 
For the post above me, I thought of this radical quote;
Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition.
-Thomas Jefferson

now onto my friend's perspective;
Also, about the reality of fighting the government, do you really think a bunch of unorganized untrained people with at best semi auto AKs or ARs have any chance? Unfortunately military technology has made that a thing of the past.

Just remember that the best trained soldiers in the world all have one thing in common . . .

they are United States civilians after the term of service.

____________________________
And if we study the words of the men who forged the chains that do exist on governmental power we would see this not as treasonous talk, not as threatening, not as anything but patriotic and a passionate love for liberty and our home country. It's healthy for the bully to know that the little guy can at least hit him once, hard. It may just keep peace on the block.

st

p.s.-
with at best semi auto AKs or ARs

:neener:
speak for yourself!
 
I just read a news report out of Colorado that a SWAT team entered a house with guns drawn and removed an 11 year old child. Why? Because the child had taken a fall and the family decided to look after the child's wounds themselves. A paramedic decided he didn't like the idea and sent the might of the state against the family because their religious beliefs do not include hospitals.

Yep, I read about this, Selena. It was clearly an abuse of power, and the father's unusual religious beliefs were very likely part of the authorities' motivation. But it was the action of a single overzealous magistrate judge. I can't see it as indicative of a general trend toward tyranny.
 
Fear? No. Simple knowledge of history, a wariness and understanding of human nature when dealing with unlimited power.

Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Mason fought for an ideal that is too easily overcome by a government that has a "standing army". (and then they set up a government that had to deal with the Shay's and Whiskey rebellions right outta the chute, getting stronger at every turn)

Checks and Balances at the local level.

Should the three branches of the Federal ever decide to get all cohesive and aligned in a certain direction that is deemed intolerable to living in a "free state", there is one last group to "check" and re-balance the equation... should that need ever arise.

I can't imagine governmental tyranny happening nationwide, but we've seen it happen at local levels, we know that gov't plans concerning situational emergency/martial law embrace it or come awfully close to it.

It's not the government I fear, but rather the potential of a mob of anarchists roaming around promoting and practicing nihilistic tendencies that could get kinda ugly.

The veneer of civilization is a very very thin skin.

Then again, there is Naomi Wolf's book The End of America worth considering.
 
Dave- I've had great discussions with you before, and here is my little bit on input here. I am Jewish. My grandparents lived in eastern europe during that whole early 1940's unpleasantness, and indeed were guests of Hitler. They were dragged from their homes, thrown in ghettos, and shipped in cattle cars to concentration camps. Auschwitz, and Bergen Belsen. 6 million Jews, and countless others died because nobody was afraid of government tyranny.

Well, here in the USA we have rights, and we can protect ourselves. Do I think it will happen here? hell no. I'm not paranoid, and I don't spend my days worrying about it. But am I ready just in case? I do my level best to be. And it's not just about a possibly Holocaust. It's about ANY tyranny.

Not me. Not now, Not ever.
 
I was born in Arizona in 1962 in These United States of America. In 2008 I read "Boy, 12, could be charged as adult in killing" happening in The United States of America. Semantics? Like H*ll!!!!!!!

Even if Ron Paul was Jesus Christ himself I doubt we have much of a chance of turning this evil empire around (not speaking of the USSR as Reagan did). We are going to need a David to slay this Goliath.

May not be quite as high road as I would like, but my blood is boiling over all the constant anti Republic nonsense and I just need a cave to curl up in. I apologize for the rant, but I am sick of the Sheeple running the pasture.
 
Hi there DaveBeal Why don't you look into Blackwater USA, or rather Balckwater international as they call themselves now. They are the largest private army in the world and there stationed about 45 minutes out of DC. Headed by Eric Prince they are staffed by mostly former special forces and other various and assorted dark operations types who now work more for a check then a cause. Why do I mention them? Well under George jr they've risen from an elite firearms training academy to the largest, most well equipped, and powerful mercenary army on the face of the Earth mother. Their the private contractors you have heard so much about in Iraq and Ahfghanistan and actually even right here in the USA(see katrina). Jeez I wonder who their loyal too.
 
Why the fear of government tyranny?
Who makes up "government"? Man that's who.
Look what man and his goverments have done the last few thousand years or even the last 100, believe me man is the same today as yesterday.
 
In polls taken many police officers say they would not carry out illegal orders under martial law, its pretty evenly divided, though that could be because they are more well versed on the law or have a different perspective of "illegal" as seen during Katrina.

However the same polls taken of the military show that MOST military personel would not hesitate to follow unconstitutional orders in a time of crisis.
Don't kid yourself. If the order was given most of the military would follow orders. They would enforce what thier superiors odered them to do, and with campaigns like Iraq teaching them many lessons I dare say they would be good at it too.

However most tyranny does not just spring into being. Often times it happens slowly and within the law, the law just changes to suite it, things like the patriot act come into existance as necessary.

Take Germany. Hitler was elected by the people. Most people never knew of evils or attrocities being commited and it was considered an exagerated conspiracy theory by many at the time.
Germany was a model nation around the world, and many intellectuals at the time learned German to be able to read the most modern scientific events.
It was like English today.
Documentaries on some of the camps were even given to the world. They created camps that are nicer and more plush than any prisons we have in the US and they were featured in them. They looked like resorts, with theatres etc That put many people at ease internationaly. They of course left out the bad side of even those camps, and definately did not show the standard of most camps.
They also did not begin killing people at the start. They just worked them hard with little food and many got weak or died as a result. Many abuses took place, like the work of doctors like Mengele, forced prostution etc.
But the "Final Solution" came towards the end of the war.

The average citizen did not experience tyranny, and the average person chose not to believe rumors of government abuses of power.

Mussolini was also elected to power by the will of the people. His programs were very liked and he was a hero in his nation until near the end.

Many tyrants and forms of tyranny happened at the hands of governments that were never conquered or defeated in a war, and they write thier own history often unaccountable for all but the larger attrocities.
The Armenian Genocide almost went unrecorded for history.

Most "tyrants" and "genocides" are not recorded at the time they happen. They are legitimate actions at the time, and only years later when survivors tell thier stories and people go over the details are they uncovered as such.

Stalin and the Soviet Union killed more of thier own people in purges and reforms than Nazi Germany ever did in all of thier camps, many times more in fact. They just never were defeated by an enemy nation, and they could contain most of thier own secrets and attrocities. Had they been a little smaller even those we know of might have gone unnoticed by history.

More people were killed by thier own governments in the 20th century than by criminals around the world in several hundred years.
 
until Bush came around, these sort of things werent even seen as possible.

Hmmm...Clinton brought us Waco. I have been much more relaxed since "W" took over. :)

I think this thread has run its course. Those who remember the past know it will happen here eventually, and those who cannot will be..etc....etc.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top