Why the fear of government tyranny?

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Once upon a time...

There was a time when suggesting that the King was just a man like any other and we could have a working social arrangement without kings... would get you hung for treason. And it wouldn't be the KIng doing the hanging; it would be a vassal who believed the Myth that people couldn't rule themselves, and that it would only bring chaos and destruction.

The day will come when people look back at our government the same way we look back at the rule of Kings, and they will say; why didn't they just stop cooperating with the petty tyrants of their day and live in liberty and cooperation? When I suggest this, I discover that I'm not attacked by the Government; I'm attacked by the citizens who believe that people can't rule themselves, and that it would only bring chaos and destruction.
 
As usual, I'm skipping pages 1-4.

This is what the antis ask us all the time. What I reply to them, is that the reason they don't have to worry about it, is that the threat of armed resistance has steered our government away from it ever meeting a confrontation with armed citizens for the past 200+ years. It's like every other person in leadership of a business, office, etc, who starts to wonder if those expensive securuty measures are really worth the money, since they have made life so boring ever since he bought them.

Governments have disarmed and subsequently killed 120 million of their own people in the last hundred years. I fail to see what magical thing has happened in America since the second amendment was written that makes us so much more noble or safe. What specific thing has occurred in America that would protect us where other nations experienced genocide.

It's really simple. One day, five years, fifty years, 200 years from now, doesn't matter, the government will be forced to put its own survival in front of the lives of the citizens. If the people have the means to resist, they will not dare to let them be exterminated. If they do NOT, they will let them die. It's that simple. For ME, in this overindulgent age, to say, "Oh come on; this REALLY isn't my problem. The risk of violence outweighs my responsibility to preserve my rights. I'll just bend on this one, admit that my hobby holds no real political significance, and I'll probably be fine anyway." Even if this is true, my grandchildren will be forced to bow to a government which is going to let them die, because I didn't think it was worth it to preserve their fundamental human rights.

And I know it's in fashion to smear our commander-in-chief during a time of war. Keep it high road anyway in here. (I have plenty of problems with the Bush Administration, but neither John Kerry nor Al Gore had any better ideas.
 
Why the fear of government tyranny?

I think a good answer is:
Have you read " Common Sence " by Thomas Paine ?

Most of your answers are there in a short read of about 50 pages. It should be a must read.
 
Standing Wolf said....
America is a republic, not a democracy.
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A more accurate statement would be...America was founded as a Constitutional Republic, it has degenerated into a Democracy and is
well and far along the road in its journey towards Socialism.


Any one who is unaware of the tyrannical activities that have been and are currently being promulgated on citizens in the guise of the "war on drugs" and "the war on terror" has not been paying attention to current events.
Just google "civil asset forfeiture" and then tell me with a straight face this is still a free country.

The old roman practice of bread and circuses is alive and thriving.
 
Why the fear of government tyranny?

Like most of us, history was a terribly dry subject in school. Memorizing dates, names of people and places just didn't interest us as much as some other subjects.

In retrospect of course, it is probably the most important subject any of us can study. George Santayana, a fairly modern philosopher, said "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I'm a bit older than most of the others on this forum so I remember a bit more history than you and there isn't much of it I'd want to relive.

As a small child I saw newsreel films that had been slipped out of Germany. Some of them showed Jews being loaded onto railcars for "relocation." While soldiers and police did the actual loading there were always citizens standing by, doing nothing. After all, weren't the Jews trying to take over Germany?

In recent months I've engaged people here and on other boards about the illegal immigrant problem. Some have suggested we load them all up on railcars and send them back to Mexico. . . Reloacating them. After all, aren't the illegals trying to take over America?

It's not my intent to get into an argument about the 'illegal problem.' It won't be solved anytime soon anyway. Instead, I wanted to show how hate never really dies, instead being driven underground only to resurface in places and at times we have little control over and once it has shown its ugly head we can expect Government to exploit it to the obvious detriment of the Jews/Mexicans and the eventual detriment of those citizens who just looked the other way.

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence-- it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and fearful master." -- George Washington
 
oldfart said:
As a small child I saw newsreel films that had been slipped out of Germany. Some of them showed Jews being loaded onto railcars for "relocation." While soldiers and police did the actual loading there were always citizens standing by, doing nothing. After all, weren't the Jews trying to take over Germany?

In recent months I've engaged people here and on other boards about the illegal immigrant problem. Some have suggested we load them all up on railcars and send them back to Mexico. . . Reloacating them. After all, aren't the illegals trying to take over America?
Click to expand...

There is a difference between railroading illegal aliens back to their country of origin and railroading citizens to an oven or mass grave for “processing”.

I am guessing most Americans don’t have an issue with immigration as long as it is done according to law; but thats another topic.
 
The government has at a moments notice: instantaneous computer access as to where you've last used your credit or debit card, GPS location of your cellphone, the power to jam the airwaves/internet/cable, military bases all over the place, distributed jail space for a million prisoners, infrared sighted helicopters, and troops armed to the teeth who will unflinchingly obey orders to fire on American citizens designated as terrorists by their superiors. Against all that you have... your little 5 shot J-Frame they want to take away. If worse comes to worst, the best we can hope for is a possible escape by night along the Appalachian or Rocky mountain ranges.
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Escape to where?

If you run you'll only die tired. Somewhere along the way if you don't want to be picked up you'll have to fight.

The truth is we have already crossed the 10 thresholds free societies historically move through on their way to become a more fascist state. The media is heavily controlled, corporations have superceded governmental power or equal it in many ways, police have moved to paramilitary style tactics and thelist of absolutely frightening technological control pursuits is, really, unebelievable without research.
But as the author in my quotes above has given up hope for resistance I would say that as ugly and costly as it would be, and as horrible for our nation it would be, and on and on and on, there will come a time in this nations future when the men and women will have to decide where they stand and if they want freedom to continue. If they do, there will be a fight, because the forces of control and manipulation will never, ever sleep.

And don't forget these friendly guys...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/2818211.html?page=1

if you want to take the time to read some more impressive stuff look through the links on the following THR post, halfway down the page posted by me. That's enough to get you started, you'll be fine with an internet connection from there. Don't be lazy, find out for yourself. You asked, do the homework. You'll see why we all feel this way in varying degrees. In fact that whole thread was a great discussion. I didnt get into it until the last few pages realy even though I was the OP.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=320212&page=7
st
 
There will never be an organized armed resistance in America.

We are too divided as a nation to stand up to any kind of tyranny. The brave few who do try will be killed and made example of in the media as terrorists and freedom haters, or whatever the phrase of the day is... and a majority of the population will believe it.

Tyranny has happened all over the world, very seldom does the population stand up to it and succeed. It isnt 1776 anymore, even if there was a chance, Ameicans wouldnt be capable of revolution anymore.

There havent been many successful revolutions in recent history. There have only been two good ones that I can think of, both of which started off on the right foot, but I cant say that I totally agree with the final product.

Does anyone really think that it is possible in this country anymore?
 
you ave to remember there are lots of good people still in government, and the best we have in police and military forces....they are not as gullible as you would have them be friend. Freedom is powerful, its why Ron Paul has been given more money than any other republican candidate, has been given more money from srvice members than any candidate period, and has the record for the most money earned in one day in history - beating even internet savvy Kerry. Small donations from freedom loving people, he has shown that there is a will and that we will always use the correct political avenue to pursue our goals. There have always been pessimists, and pessimists never win much of anything.
 
I have "wargamed" this scenario many times. If the gov't becomes this tyrannical, they won't collect guns by calling you up or letters to turn them in.They will wait until you are at work and the wife and kids are home.Then you will get the frantic phone call to come home because the SWAT team wants to know where your guns are and if they don't find them mom and the kids are heading for detention. Then what will you do? Sorry honey I'm heading for the hills good luck, or will you go home and hand them over and probably still get locked up. For those of us who carry a badge I see this coming as the politicans don't want anyone standing in the way of their authority and if you are not a faithful minion you are out. We have some hard choices to make in the days ahead.
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Well if you know a tactic like that is used....
Alot of things have to happen for this to happen.
1. First the police have to have records that you purchased firearms.
2. They have to know your real residence address
3. They have to know what time's you are not home
4. They have to find out what time your family is home and you're not. I dont think its a viable tactic for them, because the kids are probably at school and wife might also be working.
5. They are also gambling on a majority of your firearms being at your house.

If you can prevent the first two events from happening then it makes it much harder for them to come after you.
These can be prevented if you are willing to make your own guns and use something else as an address such as a church or a place that offers private mailboxes. Provided these entities are willing to do this for you for a nominal fee.

If they do come after you well its a hard choice ya know... I think going after people's families is what will break the camel's back.

There are at least 80 million known gun owners in this country if even less than 1 percent use violent means of resistance, there are not enough gov't enforcers in the country to pull this stunt. Even if every single one of them was a liberty hating orge.

What is the gov't going to do? Bomb snipers/ insurgents into submission? Well there goes your tax paying base.
 
Not tinfoil hat'ry here but .gov.us have already rounded up Americans and put them in camps... Japanese Americans are one group that have experienced this...

What makes anyone think they will never do this again... it can happen any day with the stroke of a pen.
 
Saw this thing on the History Channel last night...

"The Secret Life of the KKK."

Robed and masked people terrorizing or killing other people because they didn't look or believe as the masked and robed people thought they should. Very often the police did NOTHING because the police were either in the Klan or in league with them.

How do you stand up to that if you've been disarmed?
 
I am a fan of the constitution, law, and logic... these are my personal thoughts.

The constitution was written only decades after the framers led a rebellion against a tyranical government. That is why I believe they left the 2nd amendment, because they knew first hand what "could" happen.

Additionally, the "well regulated milita" argument is weak considering the fact that after the 2nd amendment was added, there was no push to take firearms out of the hands of citizens and keep them in the militia.
 
another thing about that "militia" thing...citizens in general who are qualified for service can fall into being part of the 'militia' just because of the fact that the government reserves the right to enact a draft if you think about it. At least, that is what I think about it. Doesnt that sound a little strange and/or contradicting?
 
Personally, I think our current President may be the worst we've had in my 51 years
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51 years ago would be 1957. lets take a look at the presidents we have had in that time.

Ike - probably one of the better presidents. despite being a former 5 star general, he had a very healthy distrust of a standing army and large government in general.

JFK - maybe the worst president of this century. Came within an eyelash of getting us all nuked. History is very generous to him. if he had not been assassinated, it is likely he would not be remembered very favorably at all.

LBJ - the most corrupt president of the group. Famous for micromanaging the VN war.

Nixon - one of the better presidents who if he had better people skills and better skills at hiding his indiscretions would probably be thought of a lot better. Was almost certainly the best foreign policy president this century. Managed to use China to counterbalance the Soviet union with very little cost to ourselves.

Ford - your basic political hack who actual did a fine job of dealing with the aftermath of the Nixon resignation. Mostly remembered for pardoning Nixon. He deserves better.

Carter - the weakest president of the bunch. A guy who was almost as clueless about the real world as JFK, and did not much care how clueless he was.

Reagan - what can you say about the greatest president of the century? maybe the second greatest president after Washington.

Bush - nice guy, but too much of a bureaucrat. made the mistake of allowing the UN and France to decide to keep Saddam in power in Iraq. Hopefully we will remember that in the future and not allow nitwits at the UN and in foreign governments to dictate that we leave an enemy in power when we have him in our sights.

Clinton - IMO, history is pretty generous to him so far. I wonder what we will think of him down the road.

Bush - too soon to tell. His biggest problem is he selects people around him mostly for their personal loyalty. He needs people around him who are unafraid to tell him the unvarnished truth.
 
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Does anyone really think that it is possible in this country anymore?
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Yes.
18,000,000 snipers go thru independent live-target live-fire practice annually (aka Operation Deer Season).
As a Swiss leader said to a German leader in WWII regarding the impending invasion of 400,000 professional soldiers against 200,000 militiamen, "each will shoot twice and go home."
 
There is no American exception. Americans by and large do not like Freedom. It entails responsbility, and that is bad for most. The thought is your paycheck should be fun money. Break my arm? Someone should pay for it, so long as it is not me. Retirement? Save for it? Nah. Let the government pay for it. Each and every goodie the government gives is another tentacle of tyranny for it must be paid for in the form of taxes, taxes paid willingly or collected at gun point. I yearn for the days when I only had to trade 40 days toil for the my Lord's protection. Its up to 5 months now. Socialism is a foregone conclusion in this country. The police state is an inevietable consquence of that. The only question is whether the breads and circuses will be grand enough to sate the masses. My guess is that it will.
 
<b>MD_Willington wrote:</b> gov.us have already rounded up Americans and put them in camps... Japanese Americans are one group that have experienced this. What makes anyone think they will never do this again... it can happen any day with the stroke of a pen.


Actually, the possibility of using camps or similar tactics again is legal and possible. The supreme court did not rule the use of these camps was unconstitutional, only that the detainment must be of reasonable length (in regards to the threat) and we can only detain those who pose/likely pose a threat.

Here, since the government truly believed there were Japanese loyalists planning to aid an invasion in the near future, and since there was no easy and quick way to discern what japanese immigrants were loyal/disloyal, the court found that internment was a reasonable invasion into citizens rights. But ONLY until the immediacy of the threat left, or until a detainee was proven loyal.
 
I don't see ...

… I don't see the risk that he, or any other in the reasonably near future, will have the opportunity to become tyrannical to the point that armed insurrection is necessary.
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I don't see the risk that, in the reasonably near future, the Black Plague will spread to the point that large-scale medical care is necessary.
So, if some politicians want to totally eliminate the possibility of such a response, I shouldn’t worry, right?

I don't see the risk that Russia, or any other country in the reasonably near future, will have the opportunity to attack the USA to the point that armed resistance is necessary.
So, if some socialist politicians want to totally eliminate the Armed Forces, I shouldn’t worry, right?

I don't see the risk that he, or any other in the reasonably near future, will have the opportunity to establish a national religion to the point that appeal to the 1st Amendment is necessary.
So, if some politicians want to totally eliminate the Establishment Clause, I shouldn’t worry, right?
 
1. Millions of Americans own guns.

2. There is little real likelihood that an American government will turn tyrannical.

Does No. 2 make No. 1 unnecessary? Or is No.1 the reason for No. 2?

Jim
 
I dont think we're heading towards socialism. Just because the Democrats will have the house for the first time in years during a period of there being a democratic president doesnt mean that the next four years will end up pushing the country into or towards socialism; it just means we have have to argue and here about the dems agendas that many people dont like, just like how we had to hear Bush's bullcrap for the past 6 years (I give him 2 years off because I actually liked him up until 2002). Either way, its crap if you're like me and follow all the issues near-equally
 
.Well all this talk does strike me as something not to worry much about. Sorry but that’s how I see it. Could it happen.....maybe..... but it sure wouldn't be easy for our government to take over like that.

So much would have to change in our country to turn our government tyrannical I'm not sure it would really be possible.

If it started to go that way I think the most likely out come would be civil war before tyranny. Our country really is way WAY too big for a central government to have total control over, it would probably fracture into many smaller countries in the end.

Also, about the reality of fighting the government, do you really think a bunch of unorganized untrained people with at best semi auto AKs or ARs have any chance? Unfortunately military technology has made that a thing of the past.

Does any of that mean people should not own guns?. Hell no! People have the right to defend them selves against criminals and that’s reason enough
 
you're assuming all of the military would agree with the government; if two parties dont even agree with each other, then how will military people in general--who have beliefs as well--agree? ultranationalist forces and such grow out of these situations for a reason. You're also assuming that we couldnt just target the bases and seize things. From there, we'd just do what our founding fathers did and forcefully seize war materials. Thats how it all started. Same scenario, different time period. Hopefully, the fact that there are two bickering parties will make any chance of uniting to share power nearly impossible, unlike how it was when you had one body of power and one idea (which was of the King and nothing more)
 
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