Why the fear of government tyranny?

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DaveBeal

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Since I started reading this forum about a month ago, I've heard three main reasons why folks here believe that firearm ownership is a good thing:

  1. Defense against criminals.
  2. Defense against government tyranny.
  3. Shooting is just plain fun.
I definitely agree with #3, and I'm beginning to understand #1, but I just don't get #2. Personally, I think our current President may be the worst we've had in my 51 years, but I don't see the risk that he, or any other in the reasonably near future, will have the opportunity to become tyrannical to the point that armed insurrection is necessary. Despite warrantless wiretaps, America is still a democracy under the rule of law and doesn't seem likely to change. Anyone want to help me with this?
 
America is a republic, not a democracy.

In the twentieth century alone, well over 100,000,000 people were slaughtered by their own governments. It's always and everywhere worth one's while to hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
 
Look at the happenings around Katrina, the gov had police come in and take the weapons of those who were Law abiding leaving them at the mercies of thos who are not. Look at the tendency of both local and Fed agencies to lean towards para-military tactics in their dealings (no-knocks as have been posted on here time after time, Ruby ridge and Waco for the Feds). No things are not there yet, but it certainly seems to be moving that way.
 
My parents were little kids, living in a democratic Austria. My grandfather had a successful business with employees and apprentices, making custom boots for motorcycle racers, ski racers and others. He tooled around Vienna on his bike and had a good life, while supporting his wife and two kids, in one of the most beautiful cities in the world, Vienna.

One day, Hitler took over their country.

A lot of Americans think this could never happen here, or don't even consider that these things are real. Hitler's rise to power is just some old story on the History Channel. But to many people, still living, it was real.

Note, though, that Germany was among the most advanced societies in world history. It produced, along with Austria, some of the greatest technology, music, philsophy, literature, psychology, medicine. It was no Rwanda.

Do I sit around worrying about this stuff? No. But do I want to be stripped of my right to fight back? HELL NO.
 
Try to put yourself in the founder's shoes. They just broke their bonds with the most powerful gov on earth at the time. That gov controlled their religion, their livelihood(taxes), their ability to print their own debt-free currency(ours is not) and their ability to own property.

Let's see, prayer has been taken out of public schools, the ten commandments have been removed from some public places. Our labor is taxed in addition to a whole slew of other taxes. The federal reserve(which is a privatly owned bank) prints our money, every dollar of which is debt based rather than the gold/silver backed currencies we are supposed to be using. We dont own any land in reality considering property taxes(land rent to the gov) and emminent domain. I would say we are in basically the same situation now, so I would say now, more than ever, we need firearms plus a whole lot more.


It will be very difficult for you to understand the American ideal of freedom since you have probably been brainwashed by the public school system to react to certain stimuli in certain ways. For example, when you think of gov, you probably immedialty assume that they have your best interest at heart even though they are composed of Human beings who equally as fallible and corruptable as everyone else.
 
but I don't see the risk that he, or any other in the reasonably near future, will have the opportunity to become tyrannical to the point that armed insurrection is necessary.

they chip away at our rights one step at a time

so we shouldn't be concerned about the distant future ? our future grandkids ?

we have to prevent it now.
 
Historically, governments kill more people than criminals. Far more.

That's why.

Governments want you to feel safe from muggers, and that's why it's alright for you not to have guns.

And yet, the real threat isn't muggers.

It's Pol Pot. Stalin. Hitler. Idi Amin. Mao Zedong. The list goes on. And will go on.

Per year, the number of people murdered by criminals is truly insignificant when compared to the number of people murdered by governments. Many of them by their own governments.

Next, you'll be told it's alright, it can't happen to your government. Oh? Why not? What's to stop it? Once government has all the guns, what in the world stands between one evil man in power and your slavery or death? History shows that it can happen. Has happened. And will happen, unless the people have the means and will to keep it from happening.
 
Another thing.

There may be a low risk right here and now. But the consequences are extreme.

That's how you do risk analysis.

Low risk, low consequences, then don't worry about "it". We don't even think of these things as "risks" because if they happen, we don't really notice.

High risk, low consequences, plan on "it" and move on. Like, your car will break down at some point. No big. Put some money in the bank and just drive the thing.

High risk, high consequences. Be ever vigilant. For example, wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle or playing tackle football, because you will eventually get hit in the head, and the consequences can be very high.

Low risk, high consequences. Keep it in mind, be prepared, then go on and live your life without worrying. For example, be armed in case of some serious emergency, and then go and live your life. Katrina, the LA Riots, these things do happen. Government tyranny can, too. But again, it's not something I think about all the time; I just don't pretend that there is no risk.
 
There's a famous quote by Hubert H. Humphrey where he "splains" the need for the second amendment.

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms.... The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be always possible. "

-- Senator Hubert H. Humphrey


So, while you may not see it today, it could be coming, sometime. Do you want protection for your children, grand children, great grandchildren, etc.? The constitution and our freedoms as Americans are not limited to each generation. It transcends generations. At least, it's supposed to.
 
History teaches us that our own government is the most likely threat to our long-term freedoms. Not everyone sees the Department of Homeland Security as above suspicion with presidential contingency plans existing that grant the executive the power to indefinitely suspend the constitution and declare martial law if a crisis of sufficient magnitude occurs. Look what happened to the American citizens of japanese ancestry in WW2. Concentration camps. American concentration camps. Think it couldn't happen again? Some nuclear warheads recently were in the news after being accidentally sidelined across the country. All it would take is a single one of those to vaporize L.A., New York City, or D.C. And afterward the executive could be "president for life". Only honor keeps this from happening and honor is at best a slippery thing. So we need to keep our firearms to escape, even if the only way to do it is to bury them in grease in our backyards. Along with ample ammo. Because History says we'd be fools not to...
 
Dave,

Common think about....

Has it happened....Yes
Could it happen agian...Yes
Could it happen in America...YES

Don't give Government all the power, power corrupts. Voteing is power, and armed populace is power, Government serves us not the other way around.

You give me one good reason to believe otherwise.
 
"Low risk"?

  • Warrantless wiretaps
  • Arrests of CITIZENS who are held indefinitely without charges because someone says they might be a terrorist
  • SWAT teams execute dead-of-night home invasions based on no-knock warrants, often at the wrong address, and terrorize or even shoot innocent residents
  • Money, personal property and real estate are seized under drug forfeiture laws without the owner even being convicted of a crime

I'm sure I could think of more reasons, if I gave it a little time. These come to mind immediately. I'd say the .gov is rapidly approaching the level of tyranny -- it it hasn't already arrived there.
 
Whaddya think keeps them honest?

1. Voting
2. Gun ownership by private citizens on a large scale
Exactly.If only the goverment had guns, the only thing stopping them from doing whatever they want is their own morals...and I would never put to much faith in people always doing the right thing just becuse its right.Look at all the news stories of govermnet coruption, bribes, theft, scams, abuse, etc.Morality doesnt seem to be a big deterrent for a lot of them.
 
The simple fact of the matter is that the government cannot be trusted. Our forefathers practically laid out our entire constitution to protect people FROM the government. Our own government was afraid of what they might turn into.

I'm sure you've heard the phrase "when seconds count the police are minutes away" well let me ask you something my friend, what if your on the bad side of the police? what if they are coming for you and your family because of a misunderstanding? What if christianity becomes the declared religion and everything else gets banned? your a criminal. What if these school attacks get linked to violent video games? are you going to hand them over or become a criminal?

Federal income tax is illegal, and yet people are arrested for not paying it every year. If you stood up for your rights on that and refused to pay, you yourself could go to jail. These are all small examples but everything becomes a larger chance as the days go by. Go back in time and ask the french in 1937 if they thought they were going to be conquered by the germans, ask the romans if they thought they were going to fall, or ask a few million jewish men women and children if they thought when they gave up their guns they were being sentences to death camps.(the german government made people hand in their guns shortly before "collecting" people)
 
fear of government

I fear my government much, much more then terrorists. Since 9/11 our government has gone out of it's way to strip many of our rights from us. By law some of the things said on this and other forums could be used to place some if not all as 'enemy combatants'. They come into your house late at night and you disappear.As an 'enemy combatant' you have no rights. No lawyer, no trial and they can 'rendition' you to a foreign country and beat and torture you. Sign confessions under duress and execute you.

Our government spies on all of us, all the time. It bothers me that when I applied for a gun permit that they ran an FBI background check. What does the FBI have in that file. NSA and many other agencies also have files on me and you. What is it that makes our government think it needs to have all this information on us?

Yes I'm paranoid and my government does nothing to relieve this paranoia. Matter of fact they add to it. I have no trust for a government that doesn't trust it's citizens.

They haven't made me disappear yet but who will know, care or be able to do anything about it if it does happen. How many people in this country has this already happened to? Think the government will ever let out that information?
Not in my lifetime. Our government is way off track and seems unable and unwilling to correct itself. And that won't change no matter how many of us have guns.

It was very telling when Bush said he had no problem with a dictator as long as it was him.

Better shut up before they knock down my door.
 
The government has at a moments notice: instantaneous computer access as to where you've last used your credit or debit card, GPS location of your cellphone, the power to jam the airwaves/internet/cable, military bases all over the place, distributed jail space for a million prisoners, infrared sighted helicopters, and troops armed to the teeth who will unflinchingly obey orders to fire on American citizens designated as terrorists by their superiors. Against all that you have... your little 5 shot J-Frame they want to take away. If worse comes to worst, the best we can hope for is a possible escape by night along the Appalachian or Rocky mountain ranges.
 
Why? This is why:

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No one saw Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot etc coming. Saying "we don't need guns because our government isn't going to go off the rails as it's ok right now" is like saying "we don't need to wear seatbelts because our car isn't going to crash because it's not in the process of crashing right now."
 
Here's the original gripes. How many do you recognize today ???

http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html

To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
 
Dave, it is not the President becoming tyrannical that worries me so much, it is local politicians and law enforcement. I live near Chicago and that place is one step away from being a total police state under a dictatorship.

Our rights are abused regularly, but on a local level, not national. Sure the ATF and FBI have provided spectacular demonstrations of what we can expect from a federal police state, but such things happen much more often on a smaller scale, they just don't get as much attention.

I have to worry about CAGE units following me, State Police harassment, and the illegal retention of firearm transaction records here in Illinois. It doesn't seem to be much of a step from a repressive government to a tyrannical one.

I you understand defense against criminals, you should also be able to understand defense against government agents acting criminally.
 
In general, I don't like things about government like taxes and regulations. I will put up with them, however, much like I will put up with flies at a picnic. The joy of eating outside outweighs a couple stupid flies. If however, the flies become a major hindrance to my enjoyment of my tuna salad and start biting me, I have one of two choices: 1) leave or 2) reach for the bug spray. I like knowing that I always have choice #2.
 
Think about what you would do if the supreme court ruled that your city/county/state could confiscate your land/home, and then transfer them to a private land developer under the pretense that the developer will cause more tax revenue to be generated.

Can't happen you say? It did in Connecticut, and continues to all over the country. Several states have passed laws against it. As I recall, firearm laws are rather restrictive in Connecticut. I can tell you that if it would have happened in Alabama, guns would have been involved. A LOT of them.

Eminent domain? Come and take it.
 
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