10mm or 357 mag

[Too_Pure]

I'll have WAY more important things to scare me, shock me, and worry about than MY muzzle blast.

True. I don't practice with full power SD ammo, either. I do, from time to time, shoot a box of what I carry to insure functionality and to remember what it's like. And I like my practice ammo to be, say, medium-high powered. I load it to my liking. I've done the loaded down thing and it just isn't as much fun.

10mm is a handloader's dream. So many possibilities. Make it a moderate .40, make it magnum, or somewhere in between.

 

[JWJacobVT]

Gee I practice with 40 S&W in my 10mm handguns (well some of them) G20, G29, S&W 610s and my S&W gen 3 4006 handles just like my S&W gen 3 1006. Yes I have some 357s also, but ccw my 10mm. Why cause I can make milk jugs dance at 80 yards with it, aiming dead on. I couldn't do that with my 45acp. So I went to the darkside. If you are hating on 10mms, just send the poor gun to me and I will take care of it LOL. Remember folks everyone has differant likes, there are even some of you that gotta have a 1911 of x brand. That doesn't mean I have to have one. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Strykervet]

I like 10mm. More rounds, some loads have similar ballistics to .357, some exceed. The 10mm is very versatile regarding loadings, 135gr. to 220gr. Just a great round. Flat shooting and accurate. I like the G29, one of my carry pieces. The .357 is great, but to appreciate the round, you really need a barrel 4" or longer. My 6" bbl. really smokes, but it is MUCH bigger than my G29, which has a significant advantage in all areas when compared to a .357 with a similar length barrel, especially for carry. My snubnose .357 doesn't compare at all to the G29 in power. Not at all.

Basically, from what I can tell, the rounds go like this in relative power: ..., .40, .45ACP, .357mag (long barrel), 10mm, .41mag, .44mag,... The 10mm is also the only magnum semi auto cartridge that fits in a normal frame. 15 rounds in a G20. This is my go-to round. My wife is even considering carrying one of the old Smith 10mm pistols.

 

[JShirley]

I have a .357, and I've had 10mms.

I would so love a Glock 36-sized 10mm! No idea why Glock hasn't made one...

Truthfully, I'd be even happier with a 4-4.6" barrel, but a nice thin (single stack) grip to fit my widdle hands would be excellent.

John

 

[MachIVshooter]

I am just interested if a elite 10mm pistol can shoot as good as a top of the line 357 revolver, seems like you limit the cartridge if the platform can't deliver at a range that it is still effective. I know some 357 revolvers (and the right shooters) can shoot small consistent groups at 100yrds, can a 10mm?

I already covered that the Limited is more accurate than my worked 6" 686, a similarly priced gun of fine pedigree that has been tuned very well (26 ounce SA trigger). It also outshoots my 4" 586, my M65 4" and my Security-Six 4". The 2" M60 is a no brainer. And like the Limited, my Kimber ST II is also more accurate than ANY of my revolvers (which include a 629-2 and a SRH .454, among many others).

The 1006 does not outshoot the 686, 586, 629 or SRH, but does the rest. The compact witness is less accurate than most of the full size wheelguns. It's not a tight gun, and I've certainly helped loosen it up, putting 180 grain bullets out of the 3.5" barrel at 1,340 FPS.

Of course, this is at 25 and 50 yards, so it stands to reason that if the Limited outperforms those guns at those distances by a certain percentage, it will outperform them at 100 by the same margin. Obviously, that means that the difference in group size will double or quadruple.

I have shot the SRH .454 at 100, and was not impressed with it's accuracy. I attribute much of that to the crappy Ruger trigger. Perhaps it would do better in a ransom rest. But then, what's the point? Not like I'm gonna drag one around the woods.

Why don't I shoot the others at 100 yards? As Sharpdressedman pointed out, both the .357 and 10mm are getting pretty iffy at that range for use on medium game. Shoot, even with the big .50 AE, I limited myself to 125 yards on big game animals. At that range, it was down to 920 ft/lbs.

You should check into your numbers before taking shots on game animals at that range. For example, lets take Buffalo Bore's heaviest bullet loads in either caliber:

.357: 180 gr @ 1,400, 783 ft/lbs. Muzzle, 549 ft/lbs @ 100 (29.9% loss)

10mm: 220 gr. @ 1,200, 703 ft/lbs Muzzle, 539 ft/lbs @ 100 (23.3% loss)

BTW, These numbers are not biased; They are directly from BB's website: http://www.buffalobore.com/

Both test guns were 5" barrels for the advertised ballistics. Obvioulsy, those numbers will change slightly with different guns and barrel lengths, but regardless, unless the loads are coming out of a rifle, both cartridges are running out of steam to get the job done that far out. Lighter bullets are going to suffer even more.

And for the record, the word is spelled infantile.

 

[357 Terms]

Ughh.. part of the humor was the mis-spelling. There is plenty of game that a 357 or 10mm would be effective on at 100yrds, groundhogs,varmits of all kinds! I would not hesitate for a second to take a shot at 100yrds on a fat groundhog. LOL a 357 or 10mm would work great! ... as long as you could hit it.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Groundhogs are small targets for pistols at 100 yards, and they better be in the open. I was thinking deer, and I'm good to abut 60-75 yards with the two (.357 & 10mm), but capable shot placement at 100 (with open sights) is out for me, because I don't want to be too likely to wound and not anchor, so that is why I don't consider them 100 yard guns. A peripheral hit at 100 with a gun that just lost 25% or more power, and was marginal to many at best at the muzzle is not a good idea.

 

[MachIVshooter]

as long as you could hit it.

That's the tough part in real-world conditions. This spring we were hog hunting, I was out walking, trying to kick up some hogs during the middle of the day. It was hot, and I knew the range would be close, so I only took my 1006, rather than hump around my AR-10 or 11-87. Well, we also had turkey tags, and 3 toms came trotting up the path ahead of me. They stopped 70-80 yards away, and then started walking off the path to avoid me. I drew a bead and fired at one when he stopped momentarily. Knocked a few feathers off, but failed to bag him.

Perhaps not the most responsible shot to take, but we weren't having much luck, and I really wanted to bring something home.

Anyway, point is, the gun is plenty accurate to have taken the animal, but an off-hand shot at 80 yards in the field with a pistol (especially when you've been walking) is not easy. I don't think it would have made any difference if I'd been carrying my Limited or my 686.

 

[DesertFox]

I regularly shoot both 10mm and .357. My name is Desert Fox and I am a 10mm-aholic. However, I am a reloader too so ammo availability is a non-issue. If I didn't reload, I'd lean in favor of the .357 due to more widely available ammo. OTOH, since I'm a (old) reloader, I prefer revolvers so that I don't have to police/chase my brass. Both the 10mm and .357 revolvers I shoot are plenty accurate with the power nod going to 10mm. Talk of 100 yard shots with either caliber in a pistol seems a bit suspect, perhaps bar-room talk or alcohol induced... Self defense from either 2 or 4 legged critters is going to happen at an arms length, not 100 yards.

As pointed out, intended purpose is critical. 2 legged critters? 4 legged critters? MT? AK? All present special needs. While I've felt plenty comfortable with a G29, G20 or various .357 revolvers, my current MT backup is a S&W 629PC .44 Mag. If I was in AK, I would pack my Mossberg 590 12 gauge. A good idea to hunt/hike with pepper spray and a flare gun when anticipating encounters...

Both 10mm and .357 benefit greatly from the longer barrel lengths... But we're talking handguns, no?

 

[ZeSpectre]

Talk of 100 yard shots with either caliber in a pistol seems a bit suspect

On an average day I can take a 6" Ruger Security Six with .357 Magnums and with 10 rounds I can regularly hit 4-5 clay pigeons set out at 100 yards.

Same thing with my full sized Witness 10mm and my CZ-75B in .40 S&W.

On an exceptional day I can consistently hit 7 and once in a blue moon 8 out of 10 with ten rounds though a "clean sweep" still eludes me.

I have witnesses who will back me up on this. It most certainly can be done.

One truly exceptional "in the groove" day I managed to hit 6 of 10 clay pigeons at 150 yards with a friend's short little Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry II (though that was more like an artillery exercise than straight shooting due to how much holdover I had to use). Sadly I have yet to replicate that little feat though I keep trying!

 

[psyshack]

I've been reading this thread from the start. IMHO this pee match is embarrassing to me.

I'm a avid .357 reloader and shooter. Retail stuff sucks. I'm also a past and soon to be again 10mm shooter. And it will be a FS G20 and stippled out. It will never fire a round out of the OEM barrel. It will be a 10mm war horse! And be a 9x25 Dillion long range button buster.

To each there own. I'll take a 10mm any day over a .357.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Its dying because there really isn't a place/need for it . I would much rather carry a sub-compact 40 than a compact 10. As for a hunting/field gun the 357 is better. If I need more than 6 357's in the field than I need a rifle.

As has been said the 10mm is more popular than ever and seems to be getting more popular by the day. Not so the .357 mag. If anything, of the 2, I'd say the .357 is dying the slow death. Too many people like me out there that have no time for revolvers.

 

[357 Terms]

^^ the 357 mag dying!??? ughhh... I give up.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The 357 mag is for the revolver folks as a rule Old reliable

10mm and 357 SIG, pistol people...

My choice would be to go with the pistol

Regards

 

[CraigC]

If anything, of the 2, I'd say the .357 is dying the slow death.

I don't care a thing for .357 handguns but this is the silliest thing I've heard in a while.

 

[baylorattorney]

10mm. I can fire it all day and not get the pain in my ears from firing .357 magnum once.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I don't care a thing for .357 handguns but this is the silliest thing I've heard in a while.

Not any sillier than the comment you just made or the original. Fact is the 10mm is getting more popular, all the while the .357 is leaving the PDs in droves and being sold by everyone in my area at a loss, because they now prefer autos or the light pocket revolvers of which nobody wants .357. And personally I don't think the Coonan will help matters.

 

[357 Terms]

^ The 357 mag has been a distant memory in just about every police dept. in this country for almost 20 yrs, yet to say its dying is ridiculous! There are more MODELS available in 357 than EVER before! There is NO doubt about that! Do a little research and try to find out how many different manufactures/models of 357 are available, ... its overwhelming!

 

[CraigC]

The .357 has long been on the downslope in the law enforcement community. However, it continues to be one of the most popular handgun cartridges of all time. It's more popular now than ever before. To say that it is "dying a slow death", is to throw all your credibility out the window. I smell a strong lack of perspective and a weird belief that everyone has given up their revolvers to shoot automatics. Maybe you should get out more???

 

[2zulu1]

Smith & Wesson was asked to design and put into production this .357mag platform for LE use;

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Weapons/Articles/2008/05/Smith-Wesson-327-TRR8-Revolver.aspx

Both Speer and Winchester manufacture bonded ammunition for the .357mag and Speer will be adding 140gr Gold Dots for the mag in the near future to complement their family of 125gr, 135gr, 158gr and 170gr GDs.

Personally, I carry the mag more often than the 10mm, that includes the M327 TRR8 as mentioned in the above article. For practical use, more ranchers and farmers in the area I live carry, and use, the .357mag/.44mag more than the non-existant 10mm. If a situation develops outside the .357mag/.38Super carry, I bypass both my G20s and carry a M29 Mountain.

I enjoy reloading and shooting all 4 calibers mentioned above; however, when the dust settles, the 10mm is loaded with bullets designed for .40 S&W velocities. Complicating things is the 10mm does not have a real world database for personal defense shootings to determine its effectiveness.

I wish Speer would develop a shallow cavity Gold Dot that would hold up to velocities that the 10mm is capable of.

Bob

 

[IdahoLT1]

I enjoy reloading and shooting all 4 calibers mentioned above; however, when the dust settles, the 10mm is loaded with bullets designed for .40 S&W velocities. Complicating things is the 10mm does not have a real world database for personal defense shootings to determine its effectiveness.

This makes no sense. Youre talking about a 200fps difference when comparing the velocities of 40S&W and 10mm in every bullet weight. I HIGHLY doubt an extra 200fps is going to make a significant difference in a bullets performance. If that were the case, I could argue the .357 loses the advantage of being able to be used in a 8" revolver for increased velocity since certain bullets weights are designed to be used in a 4" gun. Again, that argument doesnt hold any water.

 

[GMHAYESUSN]

I have a Auto Ord 1911 in 10MM auto and love it over any of the revolvers ive owned over the years and on my pre deployment leave i went to impact guns in ogden and tried 150 rounds throught a smith 1076 and was pretty impressed with it

 

[MachIVshooter]

I enjoy reloading and shooting all 4 calibers mentioned above; however, when the dust settles, the 10mm is loaded with bullets designed for .40 S&W velocities. Complicating things is the 10mm does not have a real world database for personal defense shootings to determine its effectiveness.

180's work pretty well at 1,400 FPS (I use Golden Sabres) , and 200+ are specifically designed for 10mm. If you want a controlled expansion bullet with good penetration for your 10mm, try the 200 gr. XTP.

And that "real world database" is bunk. For all the effort M&S put into it, it still amounts to nothing more than a humongous pile of anecdotes. In another thread, I demonstrated where some of their data shows a .32 ACP as being more effective than a .44 Mag. There are also loads that they showed as having greater than 100% effectiveness; How is that possible?

Is the 10mm a more effective defense cartridge than .40 S&W? Probably not, there are probably very few instances in which the increased power realizes any benefit on a human target. Why, then, do I carry one? Well, I have big hands, so 10mm guns tend to fit me better than .40 S&W models, and the capacity is the same. And I doubt anyone involved in a defensive shooting ever wished for a less potent cartridge.

One can reasonably deduce that the 10mm will be at least as effective as the .40 S&W.

The .40 S&W is to the 10mm what the .308 is to the .30-06; A cartridge developed to fit ina shorter action and achieve similar ballistics with the light to mid-weight bullets. Of course, the degree of separation between 10mm & .40 is greater than that between .30-06 and .308. No one is arguing that the .308 is more effective than the .30-06, so why then, would some suggest that the 10mm is not as good as the .40? Does not compute. Unless your hands don't fit the larger frame or you always buy factory ammo and cost is a concern, the 10mm makes more sense in a given platform.

 

[tinygnat219]

The .357 has long been on the downslope in the law enforcement community. However, it continues to be one of the most popular handgun cartridges of all time. It's more popular now than ever before. To say that it is "dying a slow death", is to throw all your credibility out the window. I smell a strong lack of perspective and a weird belief that everyone has given up their revolvers to shoot automatics. Maybe you should get out more???

No need to get absurd here. Remember that this is The High Road. The fact is, revolver ownership and use has been falling year by year. They've made up something like 17% of all new gun sales by year for the past couple of years. It's effectively dead in Law Enforcement, with the exception of Back Up Guns and some specialized SWAT use especially when you consider that it was the Gold Standard 20-25 years ago. I don't know about the .357 Magnum cartridge itself "dying a slow death", especially considering the number of guns still produced each year and all the older guns still out there but its use has definitely declined over the years. I don't see it or the .38 SPL going the way of the .44 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 SPL, or other revolvers and their cartridges.

 

[CraigC]

I don't see it or the .38 SPL going the way of the .44 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 SPL, or other revolvers and their cartridges.

What exactly is this supposed to mean? You auto shooters really need to get out more. Methinks you guys seriously lack perspective.