10mm the equivalent of the 41 - sheer BUFFOONERY

[Ridgerunner665]

Everyone has an opinion on it, and there is some merit to most of them... but when comparing different calibers, I prefer to compare bullets with similar sectional density.

That gives a more apples to apples comparison.

 

[mcb]

Everyone has an opinion on it... bur when comparing different calibers, I prefer to compare bullets with similar sectional density.

That gives a more apples to apples comparison.

Are you talking about sectional density before or after it expands at impact?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Before.... no need to overcomplicate things, lol.

Bullet construction is another topic.

 

[Dibbs]

{ ?} . . .

 

[WestKentucky]

I really like 10mm however I have not had a 41 to try out. I am fairly impartial, so if anybody wants to actually settle this debate then please send me your .41 for me to try out and I will let you know how it shakes out. It would include years of testing and would be complete with results on game animals as well.

On the topic of game animals... 10mm is the low end of what I would carry for black bear and whitetail. .41 can handle much larger game, all the way up to grizzly HOWEVER I would not choose it for much because typically where a .41 would be chosen for intended quarry, a heavier gun and round would be necessary for the predators in the area. Ballistically and energetically the .41 is a clear winner. Practically though they are pretty stinking close. More than a 9mm/38spl but not enough for protection against large predators. That’s a small chunk of the world to pick a 10mm. Basically places that DO have elk, but DONT have grizzly or mountain lion.

 

[ATLDave]

Everyone has an opinion on it, and there is some merit to most of them... but when comparing different calibers, I prefer to compare bullets with similar sectional density.

That gives a more apples to apples comparison.

Ugh. What you will see, then, is that for cartridges with similar powder capacity and pressure limits, the bigger bore gun will "win" momentum and the smaller bore gun will "win" KE. Again, because that's the how the math works.

This stuff isn't that complicated. It's 2 formulas. 3 if you want to throw in SD. And none of them require any math more complicated than this non-STEM-major can track.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

As Max said earlier.... if only kinetic energy mattered?

It doesn't... sectional density and bullet construction (penetration) puts meat on the ground... poke big enough holes in vital organs and critters die.

 

[MaxP]

As Max said earlier.... if only kinetic energy mattered?

It doesn't... sectional density and bullet construction puts meat on the ground... poke big enough holes in vital organs and critters die.

Monolithic construction makes the sectional density argument questionable as well. With the same bullet (let’s say same construction and nose profile, etc.), the .41 walks away from the smaller 10mm. And velocity matters from a terminal standpoint assuming the bullet is up to the task.

 

[ATLDave]

As Max said earlier.... if only kinetic energy mattered?

It doesn't... sectional density and bullet construction puts meat on the ground... poke big enough holes in vital organs and critters die.

I feel that you and I may be talking past one another. I was responding to the claim that the 10mm cannot match the .357 because in a 220/10 versus 180/357 comparison, the .357 had more KE. I was disagreeing with that claim.

 

[Fiv3r]

If you simply mail order your 41 ammo, you have no argument. I don't care for $1-a-shot ammo, so I reload my own. I also have a 41 Special custom gun and have no choice but to load my own ammo for it. As long as Starline has the brass, a round is not "extinct".

I'm not arguing. I'm stating how I buy what I buy. I don't shoot enough to purchase quantities online worth the shipping cost for an already expensive round. My buying strategy is to buy a couple boxes of what I want to shoot on sale and stock pile it for when i get the rare half and hour to go punch holes in paper. I fund this with a bit of left over "lunch money" so that it doesn't affect the family budget. I stick to locally available rounds so that I can purchase what I find when I browse. I've got a bunch of 9mm, less. 45, even less .32, etc. I think a lot of casual shooters purchase that way. My only point in this thread has been all along that should one in my town walk into the 4 largest sellers of guns and or ammo, step up to the counter and say, "I would like to purchase a .41 revolver and/or .41 ammo." they will tell you that they dont stock it and they can order it for you and have it in a couple days to a week. You will not walk out of the store with it in hand. It physically is not here. All I have said is that .41, in my geographic region, is rarer than hen's teeth to the point that it may as well be dodo's teeth. You'll find 20 different flavors of rifle rounds that will put a deer down post haste, many of them are illegal for hunting here as they aren't straight walled or big enough in caliber, but no .41 magnum as far as I know of.

I understand that getting ammo online is an Avenue. I'm one of those dagblasted millennials. My "lazy" generation kinda perfected having stuff dropped at the door in two days from an online merchant. I know how to procure ammo. I simply mean that of the wall of probably 50 chamberings at the LGS/Academy .41 magnum is not on the shelves. If any of you would like to make a trip to my town, I will gladly and in full sincerity shake your hand and buy you a beer. If you would like to go shoot some .41 magnum before we have said beer, you will need to bring your own as there is for all intents and purposes none here to be had.

There used to be many wolves in this area. Now there are functionally zero wolves. I know that wolves exist. I just probably won't stumble across one in this area outside of the zoo. It would be really cool to see a wolf in the wild. I would love it if more of them were around, but that is not the case. That does not detract from the wolves. It does not make them lesser animals because they are not here, but they are not.

I apologize for the continued thread drift, and I won't further comment as I dont want to be the cause of it to get locked for drifting. As I have said three times now, my first post was in jest about the availability of the round. I have never stumbled across a .41 magnum round in this area. I just assumed it was just as rare other places. For that assumption, i apologize.

 

[Rule3]

Nope.... that barrel length argument doesn't fly.

I have a Glock 40 in 10mm with a 7 inch KKM barrel... I've pushed it as hard as it can be pushed with EVERY suitable powder and 1,300 fps is all it'll do with 200 grain bullets.

I also have a 6.5 inch Ruger in 41 mag... with 210 grain bullets, even starting loads will exceed 1,300 fps... and max loads will exceed 1,500 fps.

To quote Paul Harrell..... that's a LOT more.

True but my Glock 20 holds 15 rounds and my SW 41 cal holds 6.

The 10 mm is good enough for the Danish Polar Bear Police (Sirius Patrol)

 

[jski]

This is statement is wrong, and reflects a misunderstanding of the math of kinetic energy formulas. If you take the same cartridge and load it to max pressures with suitable powders with bullets 40 grains apart, the lighter bullet loading will ALWAYS have higher kinetic energy. That's because the KE formula squares velocity.

Conversely, if you were to run a momentum ("power factor") calculation for the same load you listed above, you will see the 10mm round carrying more momentum/"power factor" than the 357. (264 PF for the 10mm vs 252 PF for the .357.)

You need to compare similar bullet weights.

ATLDave, I won’t disagree with your reasoning. I’ve always wondered which was the better measure: kenetic energy or momentem?

 

[mcb]

ATLDave, I won’t disagree with your reasoning. I’ve always wondered which was the better measure: kenetic energy or momentem?

The military uses only energy. If you look at the potential lethality of fragments coming off a fragmentary warhead, lethality of a fragment is based only on its kinetic energy. There is no discussion of the fragment's momentum. That said the two valued are completely inseparable. If you have sufficient information to calculate one you can calculate the other. There is nothing you can do that effects one value that does not also effect the other value. In reality you need more than just either property's numeric value to have any real expectation of predicting the outcome meaningfully.

 

[Charlie98]

Where the 10MM shines is it's an auto loader round.

This. You can get excellent performance from the cartridge in and of itself, not even comparing it to the .357 or .41, in a standard sized autoloader. Sure, you can go the Magnum route, but you are looking at pistols like the Desert Eagle, the Grizzly, or an AMT, or something esoteric like the Coonan.

Well, the bullet is almost the same diameter. Isn't that close enough?

Just like the .410" being 'almost' the same as .429"? I'm not necessarily a fan of the '.44', but I'll admit the .41 is not the .44... er... .429.

 

[ATLDave]

ATLDave, I won’t disagree with your reasoning. I’ve always wondered which was the better measure: kenetic energy or momentem?

I don't think either is sufficient by itself... nor even both together. Terminal ballistics at handgun-ish velocities is an extremely contentious subject, with lots of people making lots of absolute statements about things that are inherently grey/probabalistic. I don't think it's susceptible of being reduced to a single number.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I don't really know how it started but I do ...

T ball. It all STARTED with T ball, no keeping score and all games end in a tie. The precious little snow flakes are all equal and it is all good as another and they can't accept the plain facts of science, physics, nature or the world. 2+2=4 and 4 exactly is just to harsh for their delicate psyche. 4.5 is pretty close, 3.9 is almost the same, 4.1 is just as good... "modern" physics tells us 9mm is the same as 45acp except when they think they might face down a bear then a 10mm is just as good as a 44 mag and a 357 is equal to... and you can shoot 38s in a 357 so...

I've nearly jumped sides on gun control issues the few days. Over half the people in this country SHOULD NOT OWN OR HANDLE GUNS. Not promoting making it law but it is still fact. Most of the people in this country today are flat out ignorant, or stupid, or both. Far past the general competence to be owning, handling, or operating dangerous, delicate, or valuable objects like guns, motor vehicles, glass items or sharp knives.

 

[ATLDave]

OK then... [backs slowly away]

 

[Zaydok Allen]

OK then... [backs slowly away]

Ah, yeah.

You can get excellent performance from the cartridge in and of itself

There is the issue in my mind. The 10mm is an excellent semiauto cartridge that is suitable for a variety of purposes. The fact that it's in a semiauto with detachable box magazines makes it very fast to reload, which may or may not affect the outcome of a situation. It surpasses several commercially produced cartridges in terms of performance. That isn't to say other cartridges aren't any good, or even that it's the "best", it just says that the cartridge stands on it's own two feet, so long as the application is appropriate. There's real benefits there.

But what the 10mm auto isn't is a substitute for a magnum revolver cartridge of the same or greater diameter with greater case capacity.

They are two different things. People need to just let them be two different things.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Wait......... WHAT!?!

Ballistically, factually INCORRECT information in the media - regardless the source!?!

Color me shocked.
OK, mildly surprised.
Well, I guess disappointed...
On 4th thought - these days - I EXPECT it!

Hell, look at the *informed* tools that say that the 10 is no more significantly powerful than the .40 because they use short-attention-span, fact-mining for weak 10s and powerful .40s. I must have heard this *fact* repeated nearly 100 times in the past many years and then every goof that overhears it passes it on further like an intellectual virus.


Todd.

 

[RealGun]

I'm not arguing. I'm stating how I buy what I buy. I don't shoot enough to purchase quantities online worth the shipping cost for an already expensive round. My buying strategy is to buy a couple boxes of what I want to shoot on sale and stock pile it for when i get the rare half and hour to go punch holes in paper. I fund this with a bit of left over "lunch money" so that it doesn't affect the family budget. I stick to locally available rounds so that I can purchase what I find when I browse. I've got a bunch of 9mm, less. 45, even less .32, etc. I think a lot of casual shooters purchase that way. My only point in this thread has been all along that should one in my town walk into the 4 largest sellers of guns and or ammo, step up to the counter and say, "I would like to purchase a .41 revolver and/or .41 ammo." they will tell you that they dont stock it and they can order it for you and have it in a couple days to a week. You will not walk out of the store with it in hand. It physically is not here. All I have said is that .41, in my geographic region, is rarer than hen's teeth to the point that it may as well be dodo's teeth. You'll find 20 different flavors of rifle rounds that will put a deer down post haste, many of them are illegal for hunting here as they aren't straight walled or big enough in caliber, but no .41 magnum as far as I know of.

I understand that getting ammo online is an Avenue. I'm one of those dagblasted millennials. My "lazy" generation kinda perfected having stuff dropped at the door in two days from an online merchant. I know how to procure ammo. I simply mean that of the wall of probably 50 chamberings at the LGS/Academy .41 magnum is not on the shelves. If any of you would like to make a trip to my town, I will gladly and in full sincerity shake your hand and buy you a beer. If you would like to go shoot some .41 magnum before we have said beer, you will need to bring your own as there is for all intents and purposes none here to be had.

There used to be many wolves in this area. Now there are functionally zero wolves. I know that wolves exist. I just probably won't stumble across one in this area outside of the zoo. It would be really cool to see a wolf in the wild. I would love it if more of them were around, but that is not the case. That does not detract from the wolves. It does not make them lesser animals because they are not here, but they are not.

I apologize for the continued thread drift, and I won't further comment as I dont want to be the cause of it to get locked for drifting. As I have said three times now, my first post was in jest about the availability of the round. I have never stumbled across a .41 magnum round in this area. I just assumed it was just as rare other places. For that assumption, i apologize.

What we expect gun stores to carry would depend on the cartridge. Expect the big four or five most popular ones. Yes, if you limit yourself to pocket money purchases locally and don't reload, that will need to control what gun you try to feed.

 

[MidRoad]

Fortunately, the internet is a thing, as is home delivery. I will never understand people in this day and age being fixated on what's available on a physical shelf. Who cares? They'll bring it to your house.

Not all of us can have it shipped to our door. My state requires it to ship to an FFL and it can be a cluster. Real PITA. Then ya piss off the LGS because you're not buying it through them...

 

[ATLDave]

Not all of us can have it shipped to our door. My state requires it to ship to an FFL and it can be a cluster. Real PITA. Then ya piss off the LGS because you're not buying it through them...

You have my sympathies. If I were on the fence about reloading, that would get me over it for sure.

Although how can they reasonably be "p***[ed] off" if you're buying a cartridge they don't even stock? That seems beyond crazy to me.

 

[WrongHanded]

I think it speaks volumes that Buffalo Bore - well known for squeezing every ounce of performance from a cartridge - get this from 10mm:

HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN
(1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)

➤ 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6-inch barrel
➤ 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5-inch barrel
➤ 1201 fps - Para Ordnance 1911 with Nowlin 5-inch barrel

But I can get this, just by following published data:

.41 Magnum '220gr LBT WFN-GC' (actual weight about 230gr)
1240 fps - Ruger Blackhawk 4-5/8" barrel

There are some handloaders who can touch Buffalo Bore's performance, but I'm not one of them. I'm not even a "handloader", just a "reloader".

 

[MidRoad]

You have my sympathies. If I were on the fence about reloading, that would get me over it for sure.

Although how can they reasonably be "p***[ed] off" if you're buying a cartridge they don't even stock? That seems beyond crazy to me.

That's a valid point. But they can always order it for you. That what I did for my hunting loads because they don't stock much hard cast stuff.

I did win a bulk order of 44 special for a steal on GB and had it shipped to them. He kinda gave me a could shoulder after that one, but for 50 cents a round it was worth it. Can't please everyone I guess.

 

[labnoti]

The comparison is perfectly valid because the .41 has no raison d'etre except the very same as 10mm. If you just want to race ballistic specs, then sure, the 41 is "more powerful," but so what? It's completely redundant with .429 ("44") Magnum and has no purpose to exist. Elmer Keith conceived 41 Magnum to be just exactly like 10mm and not more powerful. Why would he have wanted it more powerful to be redundant with 44? It's pointless. But a cartridge with a larger caliber and heavier bullet than 357 Magnum and one without excessive velocity that interferes with most people's ability to shoot it well out of a 4" duty-size gun had plenty of purpose, especially in the days when people mostly shot lead semi-wadcutters. The 41 caliber bullet had a clear advantage over 357.

A lot of people regard the "Magnum" loadings of 41 as the thing that killed it. But Elmer Keith had actually conceived of 10mm/.40 S&W way ahead of its time. To simply puff our chest out and boast of the 41's big-bore magnum awesomeness is to completely miss the whole purpose of it.