1911 Trigger Job Clinic Part 4 the trigger
- Thread starter bigjim
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romulus
Member
The only question I would dre answer (not even knowing if I'm right but I can take a crack at this) is where to polish. I would polish top and bottom of pad and all bow (yoke?) surfaces...
I agree except that on the trigger bow you should first make sure that the bow is not bent or out of alignment. If it is, polishing will wear it through before the thing works right.
I am probably a minority, but I definitely want a fairly heavy trigger on a carry gun. (A gun I have carried has a 6 1/2 pound pull, and I don't consider it too heavy at all.)
A target gun is a different story. Although I still don't like to go below 3 1/2 pounds, I will take it below 3 if I know the gun is for the range only. I once had a guy demand a one pound pull; I told him I wouldn't even try, so he went elsewhere. The "smith" claimed that he not only took the pull down to a pound, but that he ground off the half-cock notch to keep it from "spoiling" his fine sear job. The gun went full auto with three rounds left in the first magazine.
Jim
I am probably a minority, but I definitely want a fairly heavy trigger on a carry gun. (A gun I have carried has a 6 1/2 pound pull, and I don't consider it too heavy at all.)
A target gun is a different story. Although I still don't like to go below 3 1/2 pounds, I will take it below 3 if I know the gun is for the range only. I once had a guy demand a one pound pull; I told him I wouldn't even try, so he went elsewhere. The "smith" claimed that he not only took the pull down to a pound, but that he ground off the half-cock notch to keep it from "spoiling" his fine sear job. The gun went full auto with three rounds left in the first magazine.
Jim
Black Snowman
Member
Well Jim he never said he wanted a functional gun, he just said he wanted a 1 lbs trigger pull and he found someone to give him what he wanted. I'm following these threads with interest since I FINALLY have a 1911 pattern pistol. I'm a real DIY kinda guy and I'll tackle just about anything IF I understand what I'm doing first, but I won't touch something if I'm going in blind. Especially when It's a gun.
So please enlighten us further and know that your wisdom and experiance is being well recieved and appreciated.
So please enlighten us further and know that your wisdom and experiance is being well recieved and appreciated.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Minority
Jim said:
I am probably a minority, but I definitely want a fairly heavy trigger on a carry gun. (A gun I have carried has a 6 1/2 pound pull, and I don't consider it too heavy at all.
-----------------------------------------
No argument with that statement on this end. As I stated earlier, a
2-3 pound trigger is a liability in a carry gun. Stress and adrenalin
can cause you to nudge that trigger without knowing it. I don't
even mind a little creep on a defensive pistol. It's a bit of extra
insurance against the pucker factor .
The truth is, that a 6 pound trigger that breaks clean is very good, and
most people would try one and swear that it broke at 4 pounds. I've
proven that on a number of occasions. When they saw the truth on a scale, they couldn't believe it.
On the other end of the spectrum, unless the shooter is experienced with
such triggers, he can't understand how touchy a true 3-pound trigger really
is. Most of them are a little hesitant about even shooting such a pistol on
the range, much less carrying it for serious business.
Imagine too, that if a pistol with such a trigger was used in a justifiable shooting. A sharp civil litigator could make an issue out of that "hair trigger". Ordnance specs called for...I believe...between 5 and 7 pounds
for the trigger pull. If you're involved in a shooting, it will help to have
the gun within specs if it should be tested. If the trigger group is optimized, a 6 or even 7 pound trigger is pretty damn good.
A hairy trigger is useful on a bullseye pistol...but I leave those to the
gamesmen. I want a minimum of 5 pounds on my carry guns.
Good thread!
Tuner
Jim said:
I am probably a minority, but I definitely want a fairly heavy trigger on a carry gun. (A gun I have carried has a 6 1/2 pound pull, and I don't consider it too heavy at all.
-----------------------------------------
No argument with that statement on this end. As I stated earlier, a
2-3 pound trigger is a liability in a carry gun. Stress and adrenalin
can cause you to nudge that trigger without knowing it. I don't
even mind a little creep on a defensive pistol. It's a bit of extra
insurance against the pucker factor .
The truth is, that a 6 pound trigger that breaks clean is very good, and
most people would try one and swear that it broke at 4 pounds. I've
proven that on a number of occasions. When they saw the truth on a scale, they couldn't believe it.
On the other end of the spectrum, unless the shooter is experienced with
such triggers, he can't understand how touchy a true 3-pound trigger really
is. Most of them are a little hesitant about even shooting such a pistol on
the range, much less carrying it for serious business.
Imagine too, that if a pistol with such a trigger was used in a justifiable shooting. A sharp civil litigator could make an issue out of that "hair trigger". Ordnance specs called for...I believe...between 5 and 7 pounds
for the trigger pull. If you're involved in a shooting, it will help to have
the gun within specs if it should be tested. If the trigger group is optimized, a 6 or even 7 pound trigger is pretty damn good.
A hairy trigger is useful on a bullseye pistol...but I leave those to the
gamesmen. I want a minimum of 5 pounds on my carry guns.
Good thread!
Tuner
OK you fellas you win...... I put a fresh (unmolested) leaf spring in my gun and it now breaks clean at 4.75 lbs and I swear it FEELS like its much less. But I used a RCBS trigger gage and it is a rock solid 4 and 3/4 lbs pull everytime.
Everytime that is if I rack the slide. Here is something that worries me. If I thumb cock the hammer it is about 6 onces less!! Why is that?
Ideas?
Everytime that is if I rack the slide. Here is something that worries me. If I thumb cock the hammer it is about 6 onces less!! Why is that?
Ideas?
romulus
Member
Just postulating here, but your thumb will not apply the same force as a slide acting rearward. Steel is still a plastically deformable substance, so under the force of the slide the sear may be engaging and deforming the hammer notch ever so slightly and more deeply, enough to make a measurable difference...just thinking out loud here...
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Thumb-Cocking
I think Romulus just nailed it down for ya.
When you thumb cock, you usually stop pulling on the second click as the
hammer goes to full cock. When the slide cocks it, the hammer is cammed
past full cock, and falls back to the sear. That extra bit of momentum
may just be what's making the difference.
Kudos!
Tuner
I think Romulus just nailed it down for ya.
When you thumb cock, you usually stop pulling on the second click as the
hammer goes to full cock. When the slide cocks it, the hammer is cammed
past full cock, and falls back to the sear. That extra bit of momentum
may just be what's making the difference.
Kudos!
Tuner
JeffC
Member
I had that problem once, think it had somethin' to do with the way the disconnector engaged the sear. When thumbing the hammer the disconnector doesn't move down the tunnel so it isn't forced down the tunnel and then driven back up so it's possibly touching the sear in a different spot..... I think
I don't remember any more
.1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
JeffC...
May have just nailed it. Never noticed the difference in trigger pull between
thumb-cocking and slide racking, 'cause I always check one after cocking the hammer with the slide while holding the trigger to the rear to simulate
the firing cycle. It keeps things consistent. Anything that is different can
produce a different reading.
Theory 1: Thumb-cocking doesn't produce the same results as slide-cocking. Different mechanics/dynamics involved.
Theory 2: Manually slide cocking will likely give a different reading that
live fire, for the same reasons.
Makes sense to me.
Kudos Jeff! Welcome into the fray.
Tuner
May have just nailed it. Never noticed the difference in trigger pull between
thumb-cocking and slide racking, 'cause I always check one after cocking the hammer with the slide while holding the trigger to the rear to simulate
the firing cycle. It keeps things consistent. Anything that is different can
produce a different reading.
Theory 1: Thumb-cocking doesn't produce the same results as slide-cocking. Different mechanics/dynamics involved.
Theory 2: Manually slide cocking will likely give a different reading that
live fire, for the same reasons.
Makes sense to me.
Kudos Jeff! Welcome into the fray.
Tuner
romulus
Member
Jeff's explanation is like a light bulb going off...excellentay!
JeffC
Member
Thanks for the welcome guys, the water feels real nice in here.... no hot spots , if you know what I mean .
, if you know what I mean .How important is a light weight trigger to a good trigger job? For example if for asthetic reasons I want to keep the trigger's appearance blue that would require a steel trigger (or I suppose one with some polymer finish). Can I get by with a high qulity sear, disconector, hammer and leave a steel trigger. Is there any special considerations?
For that matter does anyone make a solid, short trigger that has a black finish in polymer like an sti?
For that matter does anyone make a solid, short trigger that has a black finish in polymer like an sti?
JeffC
Member
I don't see why you can't keep your steel trigger. What you'll need to do is make sure the sear spring is strong enough to prevent trigger bounce, which can lead to hammer follow.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Steel Trigger
Howdy ajacobs,
Yes, you can keep your steel trigger, and as Jeff said, as long as the
sear spring is up to the task of fighting its inertial mass. The lighter
your components...(trigger, hammer, sear) the more chance of getting
away with a super light trigger pull. As weight goes up, so must spring tensions. Jeff, my man...You're gettin' plum good at this 1911 stuff.
The older Colt Gold Cups used a wide, steel trigger that was very heavy, compared to a standard trigger, and a small preload spring was imposed
between the sear and trigger to keep a little more forward tension on the
trigger. Detail stripping the pistol was a pain because of the spring and the little clip that retained it. (I HATE those things) When Colt went to an
aluminum trigger in the Gold Cup, the preload spring was dropped, or so
I'm told.
Take care,
Tuner
Howdy ajacobs,
Yes, you can keep your steel trigger, and as Jeff said, as long as the
sear spring is up to the task of fighting its inertial mass. The lighter
your components...(trigger, hammer, sear) the more chance of getting
away with a super light trigger pull. As weight goes up, so must spring tensions. Jeff, my man...You're gettin' plum good at this 1911 stuff.
The older Colt Gold Cups used a wide, steel trigger that was very heavy, compared to a standard trigger, and a small preload spring was imposed
between the sear and trigger to keep a little more forward tension on the
trigger. Detail stripping the pistol was a pain because of the spring and the little clip that retained it. (I HATE those things) When Colt went to an
aluminum trigger in the Gold Cup, the preload spring was dropped, or so
I'm told.
Take care,
Tuner
romulus
Member
Are there any pre-catastrophe symptoms of trigger-bounce? How can you tell if the sear spring is fatigued?
Thanks
Thanks
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Warning Signs
There are a few, romulus,
Hammer follow to half-cock during a slidelock reload is a big one. A
very light trigger pull after a slidelock reload is another one. It can
be tested periodically by loading one round into a magazine and
letting the slide slam it into battery using the slidestop to release it.
I keep dummy rounds for things like this...A snap cap will work too.
The dynamics of the event is thus:
The slide slams into battery and the pistol is jerked forward. The trigger
obeys Newton's dictum that it must remain at rest, and the sear, which is
moving forard with the gun, gets nudged a little. Simply put, it's like the old hunting horror story of a twig getting into the rifle's trigger guard while the hunter is walking. Bang.
The hammer is also affected when the slide slams home. Its own inertial
mass causes it to try to move slightly farther back from full cock. If the
mainspring isn't up to the task of getting it back onto the sear before the
sear can rotate, the hammer falls. It usually catches on the half-cock,
but sometimes not. If you get a hammer followdown, don't load the gun again until you fix it.
Since it's caused by inertia, more weight in the hammer and trigger makes
it more likely. Lightening either of these makes it less likely, along with making the sear lighter will make THAT part respond faster to any tension
from the sear spring. My two newest Colts...an XSE Commander and a NRM Gov't Model, both had lightened sears, so it appears that the trend is
toward little things that counter the effects of inertia...at least from Colt.
Generally speaking, hammer hooks that are close to the original design specs are long enough to catch the sear before a followdown can occur,
even with springs that are at a less than optimal tension level. JMB put
long hammer hooks and a 23# mainspring in the pistol for a very good reason...Best not to tinker with'em overmuch.
Happy New Year all!
Tuner
There are a few, romulus,
Hammer follow to half-cock during a slidelock reload is a big one. A
very light trigger pull after a slidelock reload is another one. It can
be tested periodically by loading one round into a magazine and
letting the slide slam it into battery using the slidestop to release it.
I keep dummy rounds for things like this...A snap cap will work too.
The dynamics of the event is thus:
The slide slams into battery and the pistol is jerked forward. The trigger
obeys Newton's dictum that it must remain at rest, and the sear, which is
moving forard with the gun, gets nudged a little. Simply put, it's like the old hunting horror story of a twig getting into the rifle's trigger guard while the hunter is walking. Bang.
The hammer is also affected when the slide slams home. Its own inertial
mass causes it to try to move slightly farther back from full cock. If the
mainspring isn't up to the task of getting it back onto the sear before the
sear can rotate, the hammer falls. It usually catches on the half-cock,
but sometimes not. If you get a hammer followdown, don't load the gun again until you fix it.
Since it's caused by inertia, more weight in the hammer and trigger makes
it more likely. Lightening either of these makes it less likely, along with making the sear lighter will make THAT part respond faster to any tension
from the sear spring. My two newest Colts...an XSE Commander and a NRM Gov't Model, both had lightened sears, so it appears that the trend is
toward little things that counter the effects of inertia...at least from Colt.
Generally speaking, hammer hooks that are close to the original design specs are long enough to catch the sear before a followdown can occur,
even with springs that are at a less than optimal tension level. JMB put
long hammer hooks and a 23# mainspring in the pistol for a very good reason...Best not to tinker with'em overmuch.
Happy New Year all!
Tuner
New guy question
Hi Guys, new pilgrim here.
I've been wading through all the good info here, and have a question. I have two 1911's, one Argentine, and one Combat Commander. The triggers have a crisp let off, but have a fair amount of creep in them. Is this normal? I'm more of a rifle shooter, and am used to little to no movement before the firing occurs.
Hi Guys, new pilgrim here.
I've been wading through all the good info here, and have a question. I have two 1911's, one Argentine, and one Combat Commander. The triggers have a crisp let off, but have a fair amount of creep in them. Is this normal? I'm more of a rifle shooter, and am used to little to no movement before the firing occurs.
stans
Member
Factory triggers, except on target grade guns, usually have a bit of creep in the pull. This is the result of dropping in parts and not fine tuning them. That of course keeps the cost and liability down.
I hope I'm not treading old ground to heavily, but how is the creep removed? I'd be tempted to try drop in parts if they would work. There aren't all that many 'smiths in this area I would have confidence in. Andy Cannon is just south of me, but I heard he doesn't work on civilian guns anymore.
Wichaka
Member
Drop in parts are okay..........as long as your gun is exactly in spec with what the drop in parts were spec'd to. If the position of your hammer & sear pins aren't where they should be, you'll be doing some fitting. And drop in parts aren't always drop in, they usually need some fitting anyway.........
Creep is removed a few different ways.........giving the sear a bit more relief on the breakaway angle, polishing everything to a mirror finish, and making sure the primary engagement angle matches the hammer hooks. Also checking out trigger movement..........nothing binding on the bow & pad. Then there's the disconnect........sear spring..........you get the picture.
I like my hooks at least .023.........but cant find them that way on after market hammers, so I usually mill them into the hammer. And I use 23lb main springs on all my trigger jobs. I can still get 4lb triggers from 23lbers, but still think that 5lbs is a good place to be.
Creep is removed a few different ways.........giving the sear a bit more relief on the breakaway angle, polishing everything to a mirror finish, and making sure the primary engagement angle matches the hammer hooks. Also checking out trigger movement..........nothing binding on the bow & pad. Then there's the disconnect........sear spring..........you get the picture.
I like my hooks at least .023.........but cant find them that way on after market hammers, so I usually mill them into the hammer. And I use 23lb main springs on all my trigger jobs. I can still get 4lb triggers from 23lbers, but still think that 5lbs is a good place to be.
Dave Sample
member
I am never going to count colis with Tuner again and I am never going to discuss triggers with this forum again. I may smoke some weed with Willie again.........................................if the occasion arises.
Wichaka
Member
Cap'n Bling;
I am never going to count colis with Tuner again and I am never going to discuss triggers with this forum again. I may smoke some weed with Willie again.........................................if the occasion arises.
Yes Dave, I can remember my first beer too.........don't worry the effects are temporary.......
I am never going to count colis with Tuner again and I am never going to discuss triggers with this forum again. I may smoke some weed with Willie again.........................................if the occasion arises.
Yes Dave, I can remember my first beer too.........don't worry the effects are temporary.......
Jammer Six
member
You lightweights sound like you need better connections for both drugs.
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