200 LSWC Woes - Failure to Fit

[johnmcl]

Here's the update.

I reset my Dillon crimp die as per the instruction, and ran a few FMJ rounds through the press. The rounds dropped into the chamber gauge just fine.

For grins I run a small number of the LSWC bullets through. The OAL is now 1.24. The brass diameter at the crimp point is 0.471. The photo of a representative round in the chamber gauge clearly shows the problem. Now look at the exact same round dropped into a Les Baer barrel. The results are not what I expected.

The gun also goes into full battery with this round. Am I off to the range?

 

[jr_roosa]

Some might not go all te way to battery. But they should mostly work ok.

J.

 

[ljnowell]

I didnt see if this was said or not, but I will say it. Are you going to shoot these rounds out of a case gauge? If not, dont worry about the darned thing. If the rounds pass the plunk test in your barrel, you are good to go. Quit over thinking it and enjoy your reloads.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I was waiting for the range report from firing the rounds through the case gauge..........

The barrel makes a much better gauge for what will fit, and what won't. Case gauges are guides, but the barrel/chamber tells the real story.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[RealGun]

I am not interested in owning a gun that will only shoot with custom ammo. Fortunately, the guns I own will shoot off the shelf ammo, or I would get rid of them. Using a gauge that defines a standard fit is exactly what I want. I am also not interested in tearing my gun down every time there is a question.

 

[johnmcl]

ReloaderFred --> I'm firing these rounds tomorrow. I'll provide a report.

Realgun --> I'm with you on the custom ammunition prohibition. My guns have to shoot both commercial and my personal reloaded ammunition flawlessly. I am not interested in having a one-off, specialized gun that can only shoot a certain flavor of ammunition. Save that one for someone else.

As an engineer, I have it burnt into my DNA on the value of precision measurements. What I do not get in this exercise is the false negative on the LSWC ammo in the case gauge. A FMJ round with that much of its *ss end sticking out of the guage would not fit in the barrel. A LSWC with a similar if not identical result does fit.

So now the question is, how do I trust the gauge? I do not consider reliable and repeatable measurement an un- necessary luxury. I also appreciate the sentiment earlier from ljnowell. However, I do not shoot out of my calipers either, and I'm not ditching them.

I do not wish to use my barrel as the test tool, nor do I wish a fifth die coming into play like the Lee factory crimp.

Another answer is to order 200 grain FMJ bullets and be done with it.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I respect every individual's right to believe, or not believe, what they want. That's what makes us individuals.

Some people like to experiment and find out what makes things tick. Others prefer the hard and rigid rules, and never step outside the lines.

With your belief, and Realgun's, in the hard and rigid rules, here are a few calibers you need to stay away from:

9x25 Dillon
9x21
9x23 Winchester
357 Sig
.400 CorBon
.45-120 Sharps
.444 Marlin
.375 Winchester

These above listed calibers would drive you nuts, so my suggestion is for you to avoid them, even though some of them are my favorite calibers to experiment with and have fun with. The .45 acp is one of the easiest calibers there is to load. The others aren't as easy and sometimes take some tweaking, since chambers vary for some of the wildcat calibers. They're not for everybody, but they give me a lot of enjoyment. But then, that's just me....

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[USSR]

To add to ReloaderFred's list of cartridges to stay away from: .45 Colt and 6.5x55.

Don

 

[ljnowell]

So now the question is, how do I trust the gauge? I do not consider reliable and repeatable measurement an un- necessary luxury. I also appreciate the sentiment earlier from ljnowell. However, I do not shoot out of my calipers either, and I'm not ditching them.

Thats kind of a silly comparison really. Calipers are needed to reload, case gauges are not. Actually calipers arent really a necessity, in a guerrilla reloading(lol, humor).

I dont really see how this has anything to do with a gun requiring custom ammo when its simply that your reloads dont pass the case gauge. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or anything like it, I just feel that you are really over thinking the issue. I'm a mechanic, I tend to tinker well past the point most people stop. Also, being a mechanic I am forced to dislike you, as an engineer. Its nothing personal, just a sworn vendetta between mechanics and engineers(lol).

Good luck with your load and most importantly have fun with it, thats why we do it.

 

[RealGun]

To add to ReloaderFred's list of cartridges to stay away from: .45 Colt and 6.5x55.

I have four .45 Colt guns, one a Henry rifle, that can share ammo, although not the hot kind. It does fit though. I know the distinction between 452ish and 454ish. I have yet to need a gauge or a cylinder to use for clearing ammo to run in these guns. I do have to watch that everything is on the 452ish end of the scale except the Taurus Judge with the .454 cylinder. It shoots anything.

Any revolver ammo I make myself is now finished with a Redding Profile Crimp die. I use both a variety of lead and XTP bullets, both off the shelf and my own reloads. So far, given a minimum of knowledge of the caliber and experience with it, I don't see the .45 Colt as a problem. I wonder what I'm missing.

 

[Jim Watson]

One factor may be that you do not have a chamber gauge.
It is a maximum cartridge gauge and is therefore likely to reject rounds that will still chamber in a typical or even minimum barrel... as you show.

I saw the same effect. My dies produced SWC reloads that would pass the gauge most but not all the time. I saw 10%, sometimes more, that would not enter the gauge fully. I set them aside for practice unless they stood way out of the gauge. The real bad actors got a trip through the Lee CFC die on a single stage press. There were not many of those to deal with. I have had hardly any fail to chamber out of those low rejects or reworked rejects... except when I overlooked an A-MERC case.

I guess you could have a gunsmith run a chamber reamer into your gauge so it would be chamber size instead of cartridge size.

I now use the EGW 4 caliber gauge which they say is cut with chamber reamers. The .45 hole is pretty accommodating, I think it is really at minimum chamber dimensions.
I am at present loading 9mms that will not gauge. They have a good deal of bearing surface of a cylindro-conical bullet showing, and the gauge does not have a leade. I used to have a reamed 9mm gauge but it is gone.
They still chamber freely in one gun and with just a touch against the rifling in my other main shooter.

 

[RealGun]

One factor may be that you do not have a chamber gauge.
It is a maximum cartridge gauge and is therefore likely to reject rounds that will still chamber in a typical or even minimum barrel... as you show.

If referring to my inline post, I don't think of .45 Colt as having a chamber per se. There is a cylinder, cylinder throat, and then a forcing cone. If a round does not seat freely, a double action cylinder will not likely even close, and a single action cylinder will not rotate.

 

[Walkalong]

There are six chambers in a typical cylinder. True, you do not have to worry about it jamming when firing from over sized rounds, because as you posted, they won't go in to begin with.

 

[USSR]

Note: My reference to the .45 Colt and 6.5x55 pertains to ReloaderFred's statement of "With your belief, and Realgun's, in the hard and rigid rules, here are a few calibers you need to stay away from:". My statement was in support of his disdain for those who employ "hard and rigid rules" as it pertains to reloading some cartridges. In the case of the .45 Colt and 6.5x55, it is not a chambering issue, but rather a case of if you are rigid and follow the rules for reloading these cartridges when you will be using them in a strong and modern firearm, you will not be using them to their advantage. For example, I have a .45 Colt in a modern S&W N frame. Do I restrict myself to the 14k psi pressure level as outlined by SAAMI that ensures that any old black powder revolvers can handle? No, I regularly run loads at 20k -25k psi which the N frame can easily handle. I also have a 6.5x55 Winchester Model 70 Match Rifle. Do I run loads at the SAAMI specified 46k CUP pressure level that the Norwegian Krag can handle? No, I run them at the 60k psi that any modern bolt rifle is designed around. Nah, I will take reasoned thought and experience over hard and rigid anyday.

Don

 

[johnmcl]

Jim,

That is exactly it. I have a Midway Max Cartridge Length gauge, not a chamber gauge.

Thank you, that explains it all.

 

[Jim Watson]

If referring to my inline post, I don't think of .45 Colt as having a chamber per se. There is a cylinder, a cylinder throat, and then a forcing cone. If a round does not seat freely, a double action cylinder will not likely even close, and a single action cylinder will not rotate.
__________________
RealGun


I was not.
I referred to the OP's pictures of .45 ACP standing up out of his gauge, but chambering in his barrel.

A .45 Colt revolver definitely has chambers, six of them. Some sources call them "charge holes."
It has one cylinder and one cylinder only. Reference to the "cylinders" of a revolver is a jargon error on par with "clip" vs "magazine" except that it is seldom noticed or corrected.

 

[RealGun]

There are six chambers in a typical cylinder. True, you do not have to worry about it jamming when firing from over sized rounds, because as you posted, they won't go in to begin with.

Yes, of course. Thank you. It still is problematic to compare gauging rounds that headspace on the case mouth to those that do not.

 

[777funk]

I use a cheap Lee 1000 progressive press and with the right settings I can get SWC's to shoot great out of a Girsan 1911 and a Ruger P90 that's had the rifling free bored a touch.

I originally had problems and I found the issue was too much bell/flare on the case mouth.

Dave at Lee pointed this out to me. He told me just bell the case only enough that the bullet will not fall off. He was 100% corect. The guy casting the SWC's told me to bell the case to where 2/3 or so of the SWC would drop into the case after flaring. Then I'd have to crimp the heck out of it. What I was creating was a bulge with my flare/bell (which will undo much of the work your resizing die just did) then crimping to compensate. I could get it to run but a lot would fail to go into battery. Your picture looks bulged in the center to me and I'm guessing you have the same problem. You don't need the Factory Crimp Die. It's just a fix for a problem earlier in the line.

I believe your problem is you are putting too much bell into the case.

Do this:
1. Flare/Bell ONLY enough that the bullet will stay put and not fall off. This way you're not un-sizing your properly resized case.
2. Use little to no crimp. I use NO crimp. Seat them to 1.230 or as RCMODEL says just a thumnail of the SWC's shank showing above the case.

3. Test

 

[Walkalong]

It still is problematic to compare gauging rounds that headspace on the case mouth to those that do not.

Headspace and whether it is a rimmed case or straight walled case has nothing to do with this. It is not a case or a head space problem.

 

[RealGun]

In my opinion, citing .45 Colt as a problem caliber makes a distinction in head spacing and type of gauging. Review the thread for the context of what I wrote and to what I was responding.

 

[Walkalong]

I did.

 

[RealGun]

Then you would know that this is where we took a left turn, away from the type of cartridge the OP was discussing.

To add to ReloaderFred's list of cartridges to stay away from: .45 Colt and 6.5x55.

 

[777funk]

To the OP, as I said in post #43, in try not flaring the case quite as much (only enough the bullet doesn't fall off and will fit in the mouth's diameter but not drop in any noticeable amount), then seating the bullet to where there's just barely a sliver (thumb nail as RC put it) of the SWC's belt showing and I'd bet even with little to no crimp it'll fit in your gauge.

I believe you're un-sizing the resized case somewhere along the line (either your case bell/flare, or the crimp). I see a bulge in the middle that I'm guessing is causing the hangup (at least in your gauge - which will probably mean that your reloads won't be as reliable as factory ammo).

 

[RealGun]

I believe you're un-sizing the resized case somewhere along the line (either your case bell/flare, or the crimp). I see a bulge in the middle that I'm guessing is causing the hangup (at least in your gauge - which will probably mean that your reloads won't be as reliable as factory ammo).

I think the bullets are likely to be larger in diameter than any expander plug, i.e. it is the bullet that is sizing the case but only in its insertion area. A resizing die that does a little less work of the brass would solve it, I think. One has to have a die set that is suitable for the bullet diameters.

 

[johnmcl]

777,

When you complete the seating process, but prior to your light crimping, does your brass fits into the your gauge? Your solution is intuitively correct.