223 and Deer. Anyone actually had a confirmed good broadside vitals shot fail?

[edmo01]

Several years ago I got a doe with a single 223 round...

Details:
Range - 25 yards
Gun - 16" AR with 1/9 twist
Round - hand loaded 60 grain Nosler Partition

The shot was broadside and hit in the heart/lung area. It was a complete pass through and by the size of the exit wound it fully expanded. The doe ran about 20 yards and fell dead, just like I've seen 30 caliber rounds do in the past.

Put the right bullet design into the right location and you'll have a deer.

Edmo

 

[777funk]

MC, interesting. I missed that! Thanks for pointing Caribou's post out. A lung shot that didn't do the job.

My first deer was with a 30-30 at age 15. I made a mid chest lung shot and it ran out of site and onto private property. I'm sure it did die though just too far to retrieve unfortunately. So I guess that also counts (though not with a .223).

 

[AStone]

Put the right bullet design into the right location and you'll have a deer.

That just sums it up right there.

Also applies to arrows.

 

[caribou]

Duplicate, please delete.

 

[caribou]

" The right bullet design into the right location" sums it up quite well.

I stayed away from .223 (55's) for hunting because of the range often shot at on open Tundra (like open Prairie) because accuracy and terminal effects wernt as 'sure' as I preferred, and found 100grn .243w to much more to my liking, in terminal effect and penetration out to 250 yards.

Later in life, after I lost the .243w, I found .30 cals in the .308 class of power have never failed me.

 

[jaysouth]

I loaded us some 60 gr. Nosler partitions in .223 for my brother in law.

He hunts with a Weatherby Vanguard and the Noslers to very good effect in the woods where he hunts.

Again, well made bullet properly placed.

 

[entropy]

Well the son that uses it hits squirrels in the head at 50 yards with a 22. So I'm confident that he's got the marksmanship to hit the kill zone on a deer at up to 100 from a stand/rest.

My only question is the ability for the round to do it's job if he does his. He actually complains a little about even a .223 (noise more than anything). But he'll do fine. He enjoys hunting and shooting.

It will if he does his. I don't recommend .223 for everyone for deer hunting, but it sounds like he'll have no problem, 777funk. I taught my son to shoot, I never doubted his abilities, but I had reservations when he hunted last year with his Axis. But after his results, (11 deer total, one with a .357, the rest with the .223 Axis) I am taking my Axis out this year. He's taking out an AR, he sold his Axis to buy it.

 

[Flintknapper]

Started my Daughter (age 9) with a .223

She shot her first four Deer with it. We tracked ALL of them at least 125 yds. with minimal blood trails. Good shot placement on each.

At age 11 I moved her up to a .243, much better results.

At age 14 we again moved her up (7mm-08) and her confidence soared!

Almost every Deer (and ALL of her hogs) dropped right in their tracks. The few deer that managed to run...did not make it far.

She is 29 years old now, has many, many....animals under her belt and you couldn't pry that rifle from her hands.

Yes, it is always about good shot placement, first and foremost, but there IS a power factor to consider too.

 

[777funk]

Interesting Flint. So tell me about the shots... sounds like the only thing that changed (to get better results) was caliber, but were those long tracks ideal shots (heart lung area)?

I have a friend who was an officer in Iraq from 01-05 or so. He uses an AR10 for deer (first time I'd seen an AR up close after hunting my whole life without ever bumping into one). He felt the 5.56 vs 7.62 in his combat experience was worlds apart (much more success with the later). He wasn't a Rambo type who'd romanticize his experience in combat or the overkill type either. He's the type that would drive an S-10 (or Tacoma in his case) because it was sufficient and not worry about needing a bigger truck unless he needed it. He was just saying it like it was from his experience and that he felt 308 was a more practical hunting rifle. I don't think he ever hunted with 556/223 though. But I could be wrong. Edit to add, I didn't think about it, but he was also comparing non expanding war ammunition (FMJ). So it may not be a fair judgement based on that.

 

[MCgunner]

People dis the AR10s for being heavy. Well, yeah, they're 8 and something pounds. It ain't like I'd be packin' one in rough country to shoot across canyons and if I did, the .223 would NOT be an alternative. The AR10 really isn't my cup of tea, no AR is, but I could see it as being highly effective in a stand, maybe night hunting hogs with a night vision scope (which might weigh as much as the rifle). You could lay 'em out with that sort of firepower in .308! And, weight really doesn't matter in a stand.

The AR10 has been around for a long time, yet people STILL insist on trying to hunt bigger game, even hogs, with the .223 ARs. Sure, a head shot would be effective if you can get a head shot, and hogs are taken at inside 100 yards especially at night, but still, the AR10 is the better bet IMHO. Folks don't think too much of hogs, though. Me, I love the meat, but lots of people just shoot 'em and let God sort 'em out. Yeah, they're a nuisance animal, but I'd rather kill 'em dead and collect the meat. I'm funny that way, more into the meat than the killin', is a reason I like trapping 'em as opposed to sitting out all night trying to stay awake. And, well, quality night vision is expensive on a fixed income.

Anyway, were I wanting to hunt with ANY ARs, I would skip right past the .223 and the .300 BLK and the beowolves and grendels and other such oddball weak sister substitutes and move right on up to .308 (or 7.62x51 for you ninjas out there) and live happy.

My current go to deer/hog centerfire is a .308...a Remington stainless M7, so I already handload the caliber. But, I'm really not into ARs. I shoot lefty and wouldn't much like the ergos, anyway, in the field. Too much crap sticking out of the bottom of those things to comfortably carry unless you wanna look like a ninja with one of those military 2 point slings or whatever they are. My little M7 shoots 3/4 MOA, so it's plenty adequate for MY hunting needs. BUT, if I WERE into night hunting hogs, I'd need a rifle with a rail as most night vision won't fit a standard Weaver mount, need a rail. I think a M1A would suit my personality and desires better, though, or a Mini .30 in 7.62x39, OR, maybe I could find an aftermarket rail for my SKS. They make all sorts of stuff for SKSs, but I haven't looked at the aftermarket in 20 years.

 

[627PCFan]

I stay away from the 223 for deer threads but I have had 1 DRT using a 223 bolt action and a 60gn Nosler Partition. Double lung shot, did exit. Deer dropped, got back up and made it about 25 yards and piled up.

IMO nothing wrong with the caliber if you can nail the shot everytime. I dont use it anymore. No margin for error.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I only lost 2 deer. One was last year with a .223 and the other was about 6years ago with a .25wssm.

Being unable to recover an animal puts a unique perspective on caliber choice. One instantly realizes that he should of brought a bigger hammer. No matter what the problem is, the hammer, or the nail.

Of the .25 wssm, it was a hammer on white tails. I just pulled a long shot. On, probably a lifetime achievement animal. I felt like a complete failure as a hunter.

After much grief over the .223 debacle, I had determined it was an optic issue. I had almost the same feelings of incompetence until I found the cause, a POS red dot. The problem was intermittent and wasn't fully obvious until a good range session.

Of the deer I have killed with the .223, all died quickly. But the one time it didn't, it was the calibers fault.

 

[X-Rap]

Human nature being what it is I doubt you'll find many fessing up to 223 failures because that group seems to be quite taken with the notion of using it for deer, you hear the same from those who love the 243 for elk.
I'm in agreement with those who have spoken of recoil sensitivity and believe it is as much a mental component as a physical one.
My daughter started hunting with a 280 when she weighed well under 100# and still used the same gun over a decade later. Her first question when shooting a different gun/caliber as a youth was "does it kick?" after which she would shoot and get a big smile on her face no matter the recoil.
If pressed to hunt for food I'd not hesitate to try for big game with the 223 but those would be extreme conditions where fair chase and ethics would take a back seat to what was best for me and my family. There are to many scenarios in deer hunting to make a blanket claim as to the effectiveness of a marginal caliber like 223, if you are in situations similar to stand/blind archery hunting at under 50 yds and can/will pick your shots and have the ability and anatomical knowledge to put them exactly where they need to go then have at it but I personally think that's a tall order for a beginning hunter.

 

[DeepSouth]

I have what seems to me to be an obvious questionIn follow up to the question
Anyone actually had a confirmed good broadside vitals shot fail?

If the shot "fails" then you didn't get the deer soooooo, how do you know it was a good vitals hit?

I've hit a deer with a .303 that ran hundreds of yards after being hit fine but the bullet didn't expand. I shot one deer with a 243 that I believe was hit fine, but I never found the deer, just a very little blood and some hair.

 

[777funk]

Xrap, the vitals are the size of a pie plate which I don't feel is a tall order for any shooter with experience. I also quiz my sons on where they should put the shot before they go into the field. If I don't feel comfortable with:
1. Gun safety and maturity
2. Marksmanship
3. Knowing the animal and where to shoot

they don't go. #1 should be built in from the beginning. The other two are something they gain over time. No young person (or even adult) should hunt until all 3 are there. I'm glad most if not all states require hunter's safety these days.

DeepSouth, good question. One I considered when starting the thread. As some have mentioned, they've had to put the deer down later with more shots. I consider that a failure. 2nd would be a LONG track (more than say 1/2 mile). 3rd way to call a failure is if someone in the deer camp finds the deer FAR from the shot the next day and is able to inspect the shot placement/entry hole. 4th way would be video. Although this isn't easy but if the quality is high enough, sometimes you can see where the deer's hide deflects.

 

[caribou]

Alot of people do not realise that only brain/spine hits drop an animal "dead right there".

If its not a brain/spine hit, then its gonna take some time to die.,,,,lungs, heart, liver, etc..... Some longer than others.

This is not a failure on the bullet or shooters part, its just part of 'dying' on the animals part.

A second shot usually shortens this time..........

 

[gspn]

If the shot "fails" then you didn't get the deer soooooo, how do you know it was a good vitals hit?

In the OP's case he defined a "fail" as a hit to the vitals where the animal travelled further than 150 yards.


In the example I provided, the bullet failed, yet I still recovered the deer.

My bullet exploded on the shoulder without penetrating...that is a fail for the Interlock bullet. Per the Hornady website:

"InterLock® design--a raised ring inside the jacket that is embedded in the bullet's core that keeps the core and jacket locked together during expansion to retain mass and energy."

In this case it failed miserably...it retained no mass, no energy, the jacket and core separated catastrophically, and it never even penetrated the chest cavity.

So you can certainly have a bullet fail, but still recover the animal. In my case the animal travelled 311 yards. It took far longer to find than I think most hunters would have put into it...in most cases that buck would've been written off as "grazed" or "barely hit" or "he'll live" and he'd have died for nothing in a briar patch a long way from where he was shot.

That's a long way of saying that I don't think bullet failure and recovery are mutually exclusive concepts. A bullet can fail, and the animal can still die...but maybe a loooonnng way from where it was shot.

 

[MCgunner]

Alot of people do not realise that only brain/spine hits drop an animal "dead right there".

I've had quite a few DRTs without any sort of CNS hit. It's not always a belted magnum, either. A lung hit collapsed a small spike one year from my .30-30 Contender at 90 yards. Dropped so fast in the tall grass, I thought I'd missed. My first deer, 75 yard shot on the run, clipped the top of the heart. THAT is a killer shot, instantly drops blood pressure to the brain to zero. Hit the heart through the ventricles and the valve will shut from back pressure and the aorta/carotid that supplies blood to the brain will maintain pressure for long enough for the deer to travel a ways, especially if it's already on the run. I've seen that, too.

But, one does not aim at the aorta above the heart. So, it helps to have some energy in that bullet to produce some ballistic pressure wave. The 7 mag is a bit excessive in this regard, but I've never had a deer hit amid ships take a step with it shot within 300 yards. Gotta be a thorax hit, of course. Gut shot, don't matter if it's a .458 Win Mag.

The ONE shot that is guaranteed to anchor is through the shoulders. It might kick for a bit, but it can't run with its landing gear destroyed. I like more bullet than a .22 to accomplish this. Ain't a lot of decent meat on the shoulders, anyway, and with a reasonable caliber like a .308 with a reasonable bullet, the meat damage is minimal. I grind all that for chili or sausage, anyway. In fact, save the backstrap and hind quarters for the roasts, I grind most of a deer. I like my chili.

In these thick woods out here, I prefer shoulder shots. I'm just biding my time to see if I can find a deer shot with a crossbow, though this is the last week of bow season here and I've yet to shoot anything.

 

[gspn]

My first deer, 75 yard shot on the run, clipped the top of the heart. THAT is a killer shot, instantly drops blood pressure to the brain to zero.

The first decent buck I ever killed was shot with a 7 mm mag at a distance of 7 yards. I blew the top of his heart off and he ran 150 yards, leaving so little blood for the first 50 or 60 yards that I thought I'd lose him. As I approached his final resting place it was obvious where he'd stop...there were huge amounts of blood. He did that two or three times then died. But he made it a long way.

 

[gspn]

I've had quite a few DRTs without any sort of CNS hit. It's not always a belted magnum, either. A lung hit collapsed a small spike one year from my .30-30 Contender at 90 yards.

Were you able to recover the bullet? I once shot a big buck through the lungs and he dropped like a stone. When gutting him, my investigation showed that my bullet fragmented, and a large piece shot straight up from the lungs and broke his back.

It's always interesting what I find in the post-mortem investigation.

 

[gspn]

The 7 mag is a bit excessive in this regard, but I've never had a deer hit amid ships take a step with it shot within 300 yards.

We shoot the same gun, and it sounds like we take similar shots...but our outcomes are remarkably different. i've rarely had a deer NOT run off when shot through the lungs with my 7 mag. I've used Core Lokts, lots of ballistic tips, silver tips, game kings, sciroccos, lots of stuff...but double lung they always run. They never go far, but they rarely drop on the spot when I do it.

I've shot them with 7 mag, 45-70, .30-06, 12 gauge...they almost all run on lung shots...unless the bullet fragments or deflects into something connected to the CNS while passing through.

Deer are interesting critters. They all have different degrees of physical and mental toughness.

 

[3212]

I want them bled out,don't like salty dried blood in the meat.Thats why I try for double lung shots.They usually drop within 50 yards.However,if I hit the shoulder or a head on brisket shot,my 100 grain .243's explode in the chest sending fragments everywhere with no exit wound.In this case they drop on the spot sometimes kicking for awhile.Four days ago I took a broadside 110 yard shot at an adult doe about 120 lbs.It was a double lung with an exit the size of a quarter.She ran uphill into the woods and collapsed at about 50 yards.Two years ago I hit a 6 point 150 lb buck in the shoulder at 80 yards.He was on a side hill and rolled down hill and laid there kicking for awhile but could not get up.No exit wound but fragments everywhere in the chest cavity.

 

[caribou]

"Dropped right there" and "dead right there" are not the same, differentiated by the time it takes for death to occur....at least thats what Im referring too.

Bullet induced Heart stops, lungs stop, busted both shoulder, and theres still a minute or two that they flop and fade.....but some run...., etc.

Bullet 'failure' to me is a hit to a vital and death not arriving fast enough

Each and every shot I or we have made on animals, is unique.

 

[entropy]

Alot of people do not realise that only brain/spine hits drop an animal "dead right there".

If its not a brain/spine hit, then its gonna take some time to die.,,,,lungs, heart, liver, etc..... Some longer than others.

This is not a failure on the bullet or shooters part, its just part of 'dying' on the animals part.

A second shot usually shortens this time..........

That's funny. several of the deer I've shot in the aorta have dropped in their tracks. Last I checked, the aorta on a deer is nowhere near the brain or spine. There are many factors that go into a clean instant kill; if the animal is not alerted, there are other shots beside a brain/spine shot that will do so, heart/lungs is one. I shoot for the aorta because the probablity of lethality is inceased due to nearly all of the surrounding tissue being vital also. It is too easy to miss the brain or spine, with no immediately placed vital tissue, and the terminal ballistics can get weird with skulls involved.

To be fair, I have had deer that I've hit in the aorta run full tilt for @ 50-75 yards before dropping also. These deer were 'alerted', usually by other hunters. (Two were being chased by other hunters, one was homing in on my Dad rattling horns at his stand. )

 

[caribou]

I'm with ya, entropy, on Arota and other chest hits dropping animals too, it happens all the time, and most dont get back up, but it still takes noticeable seconds for the end of a heart beat till the brain ceases to function, to be Dead..... Theres alot an animal can do then, shot and dying, yet not dead.....and its mental state when hit most likely has alot to do with its running off or laying/falling down....

My point is that the bullet may have done all its worth, asked of and more, putting the proper holes and dumping energy, so there simply was no failure on a hunter or bullets part at all..........because unless the brain is blown out, its operational untill denied oxygen, via stopping heart circulating or lung oxygenation , and thats not instant...... thats just how it works.......because blood/oxygen loss to the brain still takes a moment or minute to take effect. Point is, Game getting up isnt always a bullet failure.