223 and Deer. Anyone actually had a confirmed good broadside vitals shot fail?

[777funk]

I recommended a 223 as a deer rifle for younger kids and took some flak for it. If you look at the recoil charts 223 is extremely low. A .22 hornet might have less but .223 recoil is barely there. Not much more felt recoil than a .22LR. "Knockdown" Power is the only thing in question. I've done a little homework to make sure my recommendation is not off kilter and find plenty of evidence that it works fine.

BUT... and a big BUT... interspersed through almost every 223 thread, you have guys chiming in saying it's "inhumane" and "will just wound deer". I'm assuming most of these comments are by the inexperienced who enjoy voicing their opinions. When it comes down to it, .224 is only 0.020" (actually .019") smaller than .243 as far as the entry hole (assuming entry hole size with no other factor is what kills the deer as some of course incorrectly assume).

So the real question, and please don't answer based on feelings or inexperienced opinion on the mater. Only qualified answers (based on first hand experience) here.

Here's the question:
Is there anyone here who's placed a 55gr or higher Soft Point (no hollow point varmint or FMJ bullets) into the vitals (broadside shot) of a white tail and had it run more than 150 yards? By vitals, I don't mean the brain, neck, or gut shot, I mean what you'd think, what you see below:



Not related and I'd NEVER endorse it but I heard a guy (good hunter/shooter) who mentioned shooting a deer from 200 yards out with a .17HMR on his farm. He said it was snowy out so he could track it forever and figured that if he hit a rib and it didn't penetrate for some reason, it probably wouldn't die anyways. He said it was a good lung shot and dropped in 30 yards. Same guy has around 20 deer kills with his .223 and never a problem.

 

[777funk]

by the way I'll reply to my own post. I've taken deer with .223 without issues. I've had a bad shot (scope way high at distance shot) cause one to go 1/2 mile before it died. But it was not the caliber, it was the bullet placement. A 30-06 would have likely done a similar job.

 

[Patocazador]

I believe you answered your own question. Good placement equals dead deer, poor placement means long tracking and probable lost deer.

Is everyone, especially a kid, a real good shot?

If the answer is no then I agree with your detractors.

 

[entropy]

Yes. My son had several fall to 55 gr. V-Max factory Hornady ammo from his Axis. Ranges from 10 yds. to 100+ for instant drop shots, 220 was the longest, that one went about fifty yards and dropped.

 

[777funk]

Good placement equals dead deer, poor placement means long tracking and probable lost deer.

Yes sir! And great point. But I don't think this statement applies to only the .223 caliber. It could be taken with any caliber all the way up to 50BMG realistically.


It'll be good to hear if anyone has lost a deer or had to track for long distance with a shot placed in the heart or lungs region. The only way I can see this being possible is if a shoulder blade stopped it.

 

[clearcut]

I got my 2nd blacktail with a 55 grn. 223 mini 14 it dropped in it's tracks.Quartering away about 40 yds.

CC

 

[Hookeye]

We run the 55 gr Hornady V max with excellent results.
But then we shoot chucks and yotes with them, not deer.
I'd think there better bullets for that in .223.
And sometimes things don't go as planned, so a bit more might help in such situations.
I don't get it.
Was a small kid, weighed 105 and was 5' 4" tall when I graduated high school.
Remember hitting 5 ft in 9th grade.
My chosen rifle was a .243 win Ruger #1B.
But I shot all the other stuff my dad and his buds had.
They bonked but never bit.
Skinny kid, guns stayed put.
Even as an adult, I see fat people with recoil issues. Think the fat or even lots of muscle, acts as an intermediate sliding surface.
150 lbs, and I thought a 7 mag with hot as can be 160's was a joke. Remember reading about them in HS...........Petersens I had tucked in my biology book...............lights affixed to 30-06 and a 7 mag, to show diff in recoil.
Looked impressive.
The feel...........while different, was not.
However, my hunting bud says his 760 in .30-06 thumps (no pad). I think it feels like a pipsqueak.
He same size as me, but a little softer and not of as much exp.
Think much of it is poor fitting guns, crappy scope setups and too much damn television.

 

[Hookeye]

I might try a .256win or 6mm tcu at some point, just for kicks.

But that when I know nothing of size will show.

 

[3212]

This past Thursday on a Junior/Senior doe hunt I took an adult doe at 110 yards with a 100 grain spitzer from a .243 through the lungs.She ran 50 yards up into the woods and collapsed.I had a quarter sized exit wound.My buddy's 10 year old grandson took an adult doe(about 120 lbs) with a .223 at 40 yards.Shot it center of the shoulder.No exit wound.It ran 40 yards and collapsed.I don't know what the bullet weight was.

 

[Sunray]

There's no such thing as "Knockdown" Power. Using a .223 for deer requires a suitable bullet. A V-Max is not a suitable bullet.
Bullet diameter is irrelevant. It's the bullet construction that matters. Deer bullets require controlled expansion and penetration. Varmint bullets like the V-Max expand rapidly upon impact with little penetration.
"...any caliber all the way up to 50BMG realistically..." Applies to a 120mm L/44 smooth bore on an Abrams tank too.
A .17HMR would very likely be illegal. Don't think ANYWHERE allows rimfires of any calibre for deer. So are FMJ's in most places.
"...when I graduated high school..." Always laugh at doctors who tell me I should weigh what I did when I graduated high school.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Back in '83, after sighting in a Mini-14 with some Remington 50gr Power-lokt ammo, I proceeded to attempt to take a smallish buck with it. Five rounds to chest/torso failed to bring it down before it got out of sight into thick woods. After tracking it down, I dispatched it with a single shot to the head with a .357mag revolver. The bullets had expanded violently leaving golf-ball sized permant wound cavities and failed to penetrate a vital organ.

The power lokt was /is not a suitable bullet, nor is an iron sighted Mini-14 capable of a high level of precision.

I've had outstanding performance on deer from the .223 with suitable bullets. Modestly strong soft point bullets 55gr or heavier have given me satisfactory performance on deer.
Blitz, TNT, or SX bullets, should be avoided.

 

[gspn]

The only way I can see this being possible is if a shoulder blade stopped it.

I agree with the shoulder blade thing. A few years ago my son shot a 170 lb. whitetail buck broadside, with a .243. We were shooting a 95 grain Hornady SST, it was a shoulder shot at 142 yards, and the bullet blew up on impact. It completely failed to penetrate the chest cavity.

After several hours of tracking an extremely sparse blood trail we found the buck 311 yards away.

I may have simply experienced a bad bullet...they can't all be perfect...but yes I've seen that shot fail. I'm not saying it's not an adequate caliber for the job with the right placement and bullet, just giving you the data point you were looking for. It can happen. So far I've never had it happen with my 7 mag. I've killed probably 80 or 90 deer with it and it punches through everything.

 

[newfalguy101]

In the for what its worth category, exit wounds bleed almost every time, entrance wounds not so much.

Last fall I shot and killed a small deer with my 223, while not a "failure" the bullet did NOT exit and left zero blood trail.

 

[splattergun]

Having just finished a mule deer hunt among a party that included a 10 year old boy and a 16 year old girl, both of whom passed the shooting test for their hunter safety, I can tell you that children are not necessarily good enough shooters to guarantee a vital hit with a .223.

The 10 year old, shooting a new-to-him Rossi youth .243, hit his deer at 115 yards in the gut 1st shot, 2 subsequent shots all missed. Adults had to put the buck down for him.

The 16 year old, shooting a 7mm-08 she is used to using, completely missed all shots on 3 different bucks at ranges from 75 to 150 yards in field conditions. This girl has killed 2 other deer in previous years, but only when set up to shoot from hay bales.

Both these kids need a lot more practice shooting from field positions before I would trust them to kill a deer with a .223.

 

[777funk]

There's no such thing as "Knockdown" Power.

Yes Sunray. That's why I put it in quotes in the original post. But at the same time, I've seen hogs flip feet up when hit in videos. So with some ammo, there may actually be knockdown. I never mentioned V-max btw. Those are designed for varmints. I was specific in bullet type (Soft Point 55gr or higher). But on the flip side, looks like several in this thread have had success with V-max. Definitely wouldn't try an FMJ and yes rimfire is illegal in most if not all states and not even a consideration.

Last fall I shot and killed a small deer with my 223, while not a "failure" the bullet did NOT exit and left zero blood trail.

Interesting to hear FALGuy. Do you know what bullet was used? Did you have a long tracking job? Any idea where you hit it?

 

[Hangingrock]

Not all but enough people that grow corps AKA farmers don't care what caliber is used or how long it takes a deer to die. I'm surrounded by crop fields I see deer just about everyday and there is no shortage of deer. Hunters are allowed (5) deer per tag then go buy another tag.

 

[newfalguy101]

Hit in the shoulder, 64gr Win power point handload. Minimal tracking, however, the chest was full of blood and no blood trail.

The range was probably 50ish yards, maybe as far as 75

 

[caribou]

Yes. Theres alot of hunters up this way that use .223 to great effect, but then, again, placement is everything.
A couple years ago I gave my oldest daughter 300$ for her birthday (her 21st) and she came home with a Ruger Mini-14 insted of a Hangover

Mini-14s are not notoriously accurate and she kept the scope that came with it (and the single 30 rd mag).
She shot at about 100 yards or so, and hit a bull caribou with Remington 55grn soft points, and got both lungs;
And it kept on going.....a small entry between the last ribs (a high on the body hit), but the bullet completely flew to bits by the second lung and made no exit.
Agnes had to finish it off after about 20 minutes of catching up.

For sure it would have died, eventually, and carried home, but the closer they die to where they were shot, all the better. but the lesson for the daughter was enough that she hasnt been seen with that Mini-14 and is back to her M-38 Mosin. I'm sure that the Mosin would have blown both lungs and made 2 dandy holes to bleed out.

 

[VoodooMountain]

223 is fine for deer with the right bullet at close range. It may not be a great youth round as shot placement is that much more critical, but that depends on the youth's ability as well.

Location plays a factor as well. Here in Kansas there are a lot if places where it's difficult to harvest a deer inside of 100 yards

 

[777funk]

Well the son that uses it hits squirrels in the head at 50 yards with a 22. So I'm confident that he's got the marksmanship to hit the kill zone on a deer at up to 100 from a stand/rest.

My only question is the ability for the round to do it's job if he does his. He actually complains a little about even a .223 (noise more than anything). But he'll do fine. He enjoys hunting and shooting.

 

[MCgunner]

There's no such thing as "Knockdown" Power.

Have you ever shot a whitetail in the lungs with a 7mm rem mag at 3200 fps with a 150 Game King inside 100 yards? Could give you a new perspective on this.

If there's no such thing as knock down power...or just power...then a .22 short should be just fine on cape buffalo.

I don't believe a kid should deer hunt until they can handle a .243 minimum. I shot my first at age 11 with a .257 Roberts and I'd been turned loose for a couple of years in the woods to hunt squirrel with my .22. I lived and breathed hunting and shooting. We didn't have video games back then, nor computers for that matter. The M14 was the issue rifle of the US military and the .222, .222 mag, .22-250, and .22 Swift were hot varmint cartridges. Admittedly bullets have gotten a lot better, but nobody even THOUGHT of hunting deer with a .22 centerfire back then. In fact, in Texas, anything under 25 caliber was illegal.

So, it's been MHO that the big push for killing bigger game with a pop guns is the popularity of the AR15, not so much the caliber. Me, personally, I don't own an AR and do own that same .257 Roberts, a .308, a 7mm Rem Mag, a 7.62x39, several 50 caliber black powder rifles, and a few mil surps I don't hunt with. I'm not sure why I should be forced to hunt with a .22 centerfire or own an AR15.

But, to each his own. People do kill deer with ARs and it's all the rage with the video game generation, so knock yourself out. It IS legal now in my state. Don't expect ME to use one, though. My choice.

 

[777funk]

MC, I agree with you on the knockdown factor! That's what I mentioned in the "feet up" comment a few posts back. I've seen it though not often.

Respectfully to your opinion (I agree why not use bigger if in fact the little .223 isn't enough) I started the thread with the title description and first post requesting experiences by those who have had a .223 vitals shot failure with the usual soft point hunting bullet (not FMJ or varmint bullets). There are a good number of posts on the question of fitness of .223 for deer. My issue with most of those threads however is that most of the posts opposing the .223's use for deer are opinions on the matter (without first hand experiences of failure). The purpose of this thread is "a search for 1st hand experiences with the failure of the .223 (solid vital hits with SP bullets)".

So far I haven't heard of any failure stores, only heart felt opinions that the projectile is .019" too small (vs the 243 that's the usual recommended light deer gun).

Again, all due respect there to all with opinions on what they like to use. More power to using something else. I'm just wanting to keep the thread I started focused on the target.

 

[MCgunner]

So far I haven't heard of any failure stores, only heart felt opinions that the projectile is .019" too small (vs the 243 that's the usual recommended light deer gun).

Did you read Caribou's post above? Caribou isn't appreciably harder to kill than a good sized northern whitetail.

I THINK his example was actually an episode on "Life Below Zero". I seem to recall the gun and the chase to catch up with the animal after shot with the .223. I do like Ruger minis, but I'd want a mini 30, personally. Might get one some day, maybe. I do have a rather fun somewhat sportered SKS, though.

 

[AStone]

Very glad to find this thread. See my sig line for why.

No opinion at this time. Just reading (though I have not read all posts here yet).

OK, just this opinion based in decades of experience: range matters.

 

[gspn]

So far I haven't heard of any failure stores, only heart felt opinions that the projectile is .019" too small (vs the 243 that's the usual recommended light deer gun).

I provided the example of the .243 failure because it's a higher benchmark than you are considering with the .223...and I've experienced a failure even at that level.

If a 95 grain SST from a .243 with 2,900 FPS muzzle velocity can experience a fail on the shot you're talking about, then you should be able to extrapolate that to the much lighter 55 grain bullet from your .223 moving approximately the same velocity.

Caribou provided a direct example, and I provided one by way of comparison. Failures happen, you just need to decide the odds you expect for it to happen to you, and choose accordingly.