280 Ackley and Other Stuff

[sisyphus]

you guys nudged me toward 280AI, and the homework I did following that convinced me you were absolutely right. A great all around caliber that hits harder than 30-06 with a trajectory more like a 25-06 and recoil smack between the two. It's pretty tough to look at it on paper and think that the 280AI isn't the best all around caliber going right now.

But when I bought a 30-06 it made me feel like owning that and a 375 Ruger left a hole on the other end in my collection. I've been looking at 25-06 and 6.5x55 and sort of decided I wanted the next one to be Swede.

While looking at these two I noted the Winchester Short Magnums. The 270WSM and the 7mm WSM look really good on paper. Granted the 7mm WSM is more a direct competitor to 30-06, but the 270 WSM kind of falls in that middle ground, and from what I can see is very similar to the 280AI. Stronger than 280AI at nearer distances and weaker further out, with less drop all the way.

So I wanted to pick your brains and see how you felt about 270 WSM compared to 280AI.

 

[LoonWulf]

They would be about equal I'd expect. The WSM might get 100fps or so more velocity for the same bullet weight, the .280ai gets 1 or 2 more rounds depending on the guns compared.

The faster twist on the .280 also gives it slightly higher BC bullets, letting it out pace the .270wsm as distance increases.....not that I personally think it would matter that much.

 

[adcoch1]

The advantage to the 280ai (and it is a very slim advantage) is the enormous amount of good bullets for it. The advantage for the 270wsm is probably more available rifles and the shorter action I believe. I really dislike 270 for entirely unfactual and selfish reasons though, so I am uneducated on the specific benefits of 277 cal stuff.

 

[jmr40]

If you look closely at hand load data the 270 WSM doesn't do much more than standard 270. The 300 WSM will beat 30-06 by about 150 fps, but there isn't that much advantage between 270 and 270 WSM. And you'll find better options for high BC bullets in 7mm than 270. The 7mmWSM was not produced in great numbers, but it may have been the best of the WSM cartridges.

To be honest you're splitting some mighty fine hairs. For hunting the real world difference between 30-06, 270, 280 and all of the WSM's is mostly on paper. The trajectory is close enough and with proper bullet choice all will take elk size game out to at least 500 yards. Which is farther than most people need to be shooting. Recoil is close enough to see overlap depending on the actual load and rifles.

The 30-06 benefits more from handloading than the others. It was initially introduced in 1903. The cartridges capabilities have been improved a lot over the years, but factory loads for the most part are pretty conservative. The 270, and 280 are more recent designs and are loaded closer to their true potential from the factory.

I've played around with most of the above and several others. I kept 30-06 and let the others go down the road simply because my 30-06 rifles had too much history to sell. But at least on paper the 280 does ever so slightly out perform the others. The AI version adds a little more speed, with no downsides that I'm aware of. You can still shoot standard 280 ammo in one.

 

[troy fairweather]

The 7wsm is the best of the wsm's you listed, I've owned the 3. Only have the 7wsm. Most limiting thing with the wsm are mag length, guns chambered in the 280ai will have room to seat the 160 and up were the 7wsm won't.

 

[gotboostvr]

The only negative I see with the 280AI, is there's not a whole lot of rifles chambered in it yet. Savage has a few in the Axis and 110 line. There's a few Kimber's as well. There was a limited edition Ruger M77 I think. That's about it I belive for rifles under 1k.

It can match or exceed 270win velocities with the same weight bullets. The problem I see with the 270wsm is the same as the 270win, too slow of a twist rate to run the VLD bullets like the similar 7mm and 6.5mm options have for decades. The 280AI can run pretty close to 7mag velocities in the lighter range of bullets but loses some ground with the heavies. No belt to deal with. Can be made from cheap and plentiful 270win brass. Keeps normal capacity. Sends bullets with similar BC but wider and heavier to slightly higher speeds than the 6.5 Creedmoor with just a little more recoil.

I'd be really interested in a 280AI in a more svelte rifle, but would be happy with a Savage 110. Might have to get a Tikka T3x in 7mm-08 and ream it out to 280AI.

 

[adcoch1]

The only negative I see with the 280AI, is there's not a whole lot of rifles chambered in it yet. Savage has a few in the Axis and 110 line. There's a few Kimber's as well. There was a limited edition Ruger M77 I think. That's about it I belive for rifles under 1k.

It can match or exceed 270win velocities with the same weight bullets. The problem I see with the 270wsm is the same as the 270win, too slow of a twist rate to run the VLD bullets like the similar 7mm and 6.5mm options have for decades. The 280AI can run pretty close to 7mag velocities in the lighter range of bullets but loses some ground with the heavies. No belt to deal with. Can be made from cheap and plentiful 270win brass. Keeps normal capacity. Sends bullets with similar BC but wider and heavier to slightly higher speeds than the 6.5 Creedmoor with just a little more recoil.

I'd be really interested in a 280AI in a more svelte rifle, but would be happy with a Savage 110. Might have to get a Tikka T3x in 7mm-08 and ream it out to 280AI.

I may do a tikka 7mm-08 ream out as well, but I have a ruger 280 that could be done too. Probably gonna shoot the throat out of it first though. Then all bets are off...

 

[Demi-human]

So I wanted to pick your brains and see how you felt about 270 WSM compared to 280AI.

One is an elegant caliber with beautifully shaped rifle bullets, high in B.C., in a well respected case, further finely tuned by one of history’s greatest shooters and hand loaders.

The other is a magazine reducing 270.

 

[Mosin77]

They’re similar enough that practical factors (shot placement on game, practical availability and cost of components for loading, availability in your preferred rifle and cost if a custom job) will outweigh any theoretical paper ballistics advantage.

 

[horsey300]

you guys nudged me toward 280AI, and the homework I did following that convinced me you were absolutely right. A great all around caliber that hits harder than 30-06 with a trajectory more like a 25-06 and recoil smack between the two. It's pretty tough to look at it on paper and think that the 280AI isn't the best all around caliber going right now.

But when I bought a 30-06 it made me feel like owning that and a 375 Ruger left a hole on the other end in my collection. I've been looking at 25-06 and 6.5x55 and sort of decided I wanted the next one to be Swede.

While looking at these two I noted the Winchester Short Magnums. The 270WSM and the 7mm WSM look really good on paper. Granted the 7mm WSM is more a direct competitor to 30-06, but the 270 WSM kind of falls in that middle ground, and from what I can see is very similar to the 280AI. Stronger than 280AI at nearer distances and weaker further out, with less drop all the way.

So I wanted to pick your brains and see how you felt about 270 WSM compared to 280AI.

I like my Benelli r1 in .270wsm..... because it's a semi auto that can launch handload everything...... except for long slippery bullets, if standard twist was faster, I'd have nothing to complain about.....if the r1 was offered in the .280ai, I'd likely never have had the .270wsm at all. In a bolt gun? Get the .280, never look back. You'll be able to cover more game and more distance for roughly similar recoil. In factory ammo (at least in my area) the wsm has been neutered to elk/maybe moose at best. Loading a 160 partition or hot 150 tsx will change things a bit, but the game is definitely tilted in favor of the 7mm

 

[redneck2]

Or, you could just quit screwing around with oddball calibers and get a 7 Rem Mag.

Shoots flat as a varmint rifle, hits harder than a 30-06. And, the most important thing is the super cool, performance enchanting belt. And, it’s one of the most commonly available calibers for a reason.

You would be the absolute envy of all those gun gurus who really know what true rifle character is. Dunno why you would choose a caliber that’s virtually obsolete just a couple years after it was introduced.

At least, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Or, you could just quit screwing around with oddball calibers and get a 7 Rem Mag.

Shoots flat as a varmint rifle, hits harder than a 30-06. And, the most important thing is the super cool, performance enchanting belt. And, it’s one of the most commonly available calibers for a reason.

You would be the absolute envy of all those gun gurus who really know what true rifle character is. Dunno why you would choose a caliber that’s virtually obsolete just a couple years after it was introduced.

At least, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

But the 280AI can get 7RM velocity with less powder and equal pressure.
I mean it can reach 7RM starting velocities if you cherry pick the powder and bullet weight.
In all seriousness. I don't care for the 7 rem mag. It has a lot of recoil for its performance. The 280AI is right on the edge of heavy recoil in a light rifle while having great performance.
If I run a 7 RM or RUM I add 2 pounds to the rifle.

 

[jonc]

I have both. One I twist turrets and one is set up for 325 yds mpbr. Which type of hunter are you?

 

[LoonWulf]

I don't find the 7mag particularly rough on the shoulder. The .280AIs recoil is lighter but not stupendously so.

My .280Ai will drive a 160 to 3000 from it's 26" tube, noslers book max. My 7mags have done anywhere from 2990 to 3150 with 160s and 24-26" barrels. My stw made 3250 pretty easy from it's 26".
I didn't find the STW and 85grs of powder overly unpleasant either.

Question being I guess, how much oomph and cost you wanna mess with lol.

Hehe, I have a .270 win barrel I'm considering reaming out to WBY and fitting it to my American, just because....but 99% of the time I'd CHOOSE a 7mm of some sort.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

you guys nudged me toward 280AI, and the homework I did following that convinced me you were absolutely right. A great all around caliber that hits harder than 30-06 with a trajectory more like a 25-06 and recoil smack between the two. It's pretty tough to look at it on paper and think that the 280AI isn't the best all around caliber going right now.

But when I bought a 30-06 it made me feel like owning that and a 375 Ruger left a hole on the other end in my collection. I've been looking at 25-06 and 6.5x55 and sort of decided I wanted the next one to be Swede.

While looking at these two I noted the Winchester Short Magnums. The 270WSM and the 7mm WSM look really good on paper. Granted the 7mm WSM is more a direct competitor to 30-06, but the 270 WSM kind of falls in that middle ground, and from what I can see is very similar to the 280AI. Stronger than 280AI at nearer distances and weaker further out, with less drop all the way.

So I wanted to pick your brains and see how you felt about 270 WSM compared to 280AI.

What are you using this for? Critters at common hunting distances probably aren't going to be able to tell a difference. The .280 AI will require a longer receiver and bolt throw, but will have longer range due to its access to longer, heavier VLD bullets. The .270 WSM won't have the bullet selection to tinker with, but will have enough options to cover most hunting distances, in a compact, lightweight rifle.

There is a selection of heavy .277 caliber bullets coming available, such as the 165 gr Nosler Accubond LR and the 170 gr Berger VLD Hunting. But these require a much faster twist than that found on most factory guns, and by reputation, the short action magnums don't do as well with heavy for caliber bullets due to cartridge length restrictions and longer bullets being pushed back into powder space. If you were doing it custom, you could put a 1:8 twist .277 barrel made to your length and contour specifications and chambered in .270 WSM, put about 1/4" of freebore on it, and put it on a standard length action. But that is a lot of work to go through and I am still not convinced you would still get meaningful gains in performance over the .280 AI.

Basically I see no reason to stray from the .280 Ackley. But then, I have never been a particularly big fan of any short mag besides the OG, the .284 Winchester.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

But the 280AI can get 7RM velocity with less powder and equal pressure.
I mean it can reach 7RM starting velocities if you cherry pick the powder and bullet weight.
In all seriousness. I don't care for the 7 rem mag. It has a lot of recoil for its performance. The 280AI is right on the edge of heavy recoil in a light rifle while having great performance.
If I run a 7 RM or RUM I add 2 pounds to the rifle.

I don't see it. The physics says the Rem Mag has about the same recoil as the .30-06 out of the same weight rifle; similar bullet weights driven just slightly faster means maybe a pound or more recoil a couple fps faster than the 06. Given that the 7mm has a slight advantage over the older cartridge at the muzzle and this advantage increases dramatically with range, I don't think my 7mm Rem Mag recoils too much for its performance. I always thought the 7mm Rem Mag was getting something for nothing--downrange performance of the .300 Win with the recoil of the 06. To each his own, I guess, but I never found my 7mm Rem Mag particularly abusive. Lack of recoil is one of the things I like the most about the cartridge.

 

[LoonWulf]

I don't see it. The physics says the Rem Mag has about the same recoil as the .30-06 out of the same weight rifle; similar bullet weights driven just slightly faster means maybe a pound or more recoil a couple fps faster than the 06. Given that the 7mm has a slight advantage over the older cartridge at the muzzle and this advantage increases dramatically with range, I don't think my 7mm Rem Mag recoils too much for its performance. I always thought the 7mm Rem Mag was getting something for nothing--downrange performance of the .300 Win with the recoil of the 06. To each his own, I guess, but I never found my 7mm Rem Mag particularly abusive. Lack of recoil is one of the things I like the most about the cartridge.

I was thinking about that for a while the other day. My dad doesn't shoot much anymore, but when he did, he would chew thru all the 06 I loaded, but refused to shoot my 7mag because it hurt.
I think the difference isn't so much recoil energy it's how it's delivered.
Both guns were about the same weight, and had similar profiles recoil pads (none). The 06 was a 700bdl, the 7mag was a wood stock, savage 110 (this gun was brutal after switching to .300wm).
Loads were a 165gr balistic at 2900ish, and 139gr SST at 3100-3200 (never crono'ed that rifle load combo). The 7 was a little snappier and noticeably louder than the 06.
I didn't find either unpleasant, but my dad did. Im guessin both were right at his recoil tolerances and adding just a little more of anything was enough to be off putting to him.

 

[sisyphus]

on paper 30-06 and 7mm are pretty much the same for ft-lbs/ft per sec into your shoulder

 

[Hookeye]

700s fit me well.
7 mag w reg old style pad was comfy.
Buttplate models in lesser could click ya.
300winmag is a step up.

Older now. 7 mag my limit.

Think it a good idea to compare rifles of same model ( think more folks would do better if their buttplate model bdl in .270 or .3006, even lesser, would get dropped into a magnum stock that came w a decent pad ).

Actually dont like rhe Sims and new Rem pads. The old vent magnum stuff might not have been as good/ soft, but they imho were good enough and durable. Plus they looked good.

 

[LoonWulf]

My 9lb BAR in 7mags a pussy cat.....till 3 162gr eldms, launched at 3050, hit in quick succession.......

 

[Garandimal]

you guys nudged me toward 280AI, and the homework I did following that convinced me you were absolutely right. A great all around caliber that hits harder than 30-06 with a trajectory more like a 25-06 and recoil smack between the two. It's pretty tough to look at it on paper and think that the 280AI isn't the best all around caliber going right now.

But when I bought a 30-06 it made me feel like owning that and a 375 Ruger left a hole on the other end in my collection. I've been looking at 25-06 and 6.5x55 and sort of decided I wanted the next one to be Swede.

While looking at these two I noted the Winchester Short Magnums. The 270WSM and the 7mm WSM look really good on paper. Granted the 7mm WSM is more a direct competitor to 30-06, but the 270 WSM kind of falls in that middle ground, and from what I can see is very similar to the 280AI. Stronger than 280AI at nearer distances and weaker further out, with less drop all the way.

So I wanted to pick your brains and see how you felt about 270 WSM compared to 280AI.

To what actual advantage?

Are you a "bean field" shooter? ...440-625 yards from a tower stand?

Or maybe a ridge-to-ridge shooter in the western Rockies...?

It would need to be somethin'...




GR

 

[sisyphus]

To what actual advantage?

Are you a "bean field" shooter? ...440-625 yards from a tower stand?

Or maybe a ridge-to-ridge shooter in the western Rockies...?

 

[Garandimal]

View attachment 951641

If Iowa is all you hunt... and doesn't include "exotics", or clandestine expeditions to the local zoo...?

What can't a Plain Jane .270 WCF/150 gr. NP not put in the freezer out to 400 yards?



GR

 

[LoonWulf]

If Iowa is all you hunt... and doesn't include "exotics", or clandestine expeditions to the local zoo...?

What can't a Plain Jane .270 WCF/150 gr. NP not put in the freezer out to 400 yards?



GR

Would you stop helping! Were trying to talk him into another rifle damnit!


Truth be told there isn't a whole lot 150gr .277 can't do, but that's not the point!

 

[LoonWulf]

Doh....