30-40 Krag Vs 03 Springfield

[someguy2800]

After many hours of considering the "ammo conservation" thing... that I just can't get past...
I find it extremely difficult to believe the minor difference in ballistics between the Krag & Mauser was significant enough to matter.
Also a well trained soldier with a Krag rifle Vs one with a Mauser & stripper clip would be a very close match. Especially with the Krag advantage of topping off a magazine with a round chambered!
Admittedly I haven't studied the battle(s) of The Spanish American War, but my gut feeling is something else created the imbalance.
Imagine a scenario where each side switched arms. Would the outcome remain or would it change simply over the weapons? My gut tells me "no".

Success is not only judged by who won the day, but also how many had to die in the process, and I am confident that there would be less dead Americans in Cuba if we had been better equipped with small arms. It also wasn't just the krags that left the Americans fighting an uphill battle (pun intended). The army hadn't even been fully equipped with krags yet. Some troops were deploying with trap door Springfield's still.

 

[CapnMac]

Now the average guy needs to mortgage his house just to buy an average one in average condition.
For a Garand, you need to mortgage your summer place too.

Well, close enough for humor []
You can still get Garands from CMP for reasonable prices--a really good one will set you back shy of $1200, or about what gun show Carbines are going for. Gun show Garands are still around $2300.

 

[HowieG]

It didn't say in the book and not likely in great numbers, but I imagine it would be a buffalo hunter type rifle, 50-120, or some other rifle of that type. Probably much longer and heavier than calvary carbines. Just guessing on my part. Many German made rifles were captured in the Sioux uprising in the early 1860's and others from Miners and hunters. Some of the Sioux were known to have been in Minnesota and escaped to the Dakotas. Custer left heavy guns with the pack train that was left behind. Very interesting read.
Somewhat off topic.

Referring to my copy of Arhaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn, shows evidence of 35 individual Sharps rifles and 13 Springfield rifles chambered for 50/70. This cartridge of course would be in the same class at the 45/55 as far as range. No heavier chamberings showed up in the actual physical evidence.

 

[SmeeAgain]

Success is not only judged by who won the day, but also how many had to die in the process, and I am confident that there would be less dead Americans in Cuba if we had been better equipped with small arms. It also wasn't just the krags that left the Americans fighting an uphill battle (pun intended). The army hadn't even been fully equipped with krags yet. Some troops were deploying with trap door Springfield's still.

Something my father said once that has always stuck in my mind...
He said... "Wouldn't it be great if we had a war but nobody showed up to fight?"

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Well, close enough for humor []
You can still get Garands from CMP for reasonable prices--a really good one will set you back shy of $1200, or about what gun show Carbines are going for. Gun show Garands are still around $2300.

Right now the CMP Garands seem the best bargains going, if you're willing to wait your turn.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Something my father said once that has always stuck in my mind...
He said... "Wouldn't it be great if we had a war but nobody showed up to fight?"

That kind of happened in my ancestral homeland when the Wehrmacht turned up one morning and Denmark suddenly found itself occupied. Also happened in the lead-up to Brest-Litovsk: the Bolsheviks decided to quit fighting WWI but forgot to clear it with the Kaiser. The German border moved 300 miles east in just a few days.

 

[SmeeAgain]

Right now the CMP Garands seem the best bargains going, if you're willing to wait your turn.

Ouch! But... it's only going to get worse as time goes on.
Obviously I don't get out much but the last Garrand I saw for sale was a perfect condition Springfield model that was $1,200.00. Of course that was decades ago but I couldn't afford it then either.

 

[CapnMac]

but I couldn't afford it then either

They have some built-up-from-parts rack grade rifles for right at $600, from memory.
Those are not very collectible, for all the replacement parts on board, but are eminently "shoot able."

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

That kind of happened in my ancestral homeland when the Wehrmacht turned up one morning and Denmark suddenly found itself occupied.

Danmark was occupied without a "war" but there was an active underground that did do some fighting back. One of my late cousins was in it.

 

[HowieG]

Success is not only judged by who won the day, but also how many had to die in the process, and I am confident that there would be less dead Americans in Cuba if we had been better equipped with small arms. It also wasn't just the krags that left the Americans fighting an uphill battle (pun intended). The army hadn't even been fully equipped with krags yet. Some troops were deploying with trap door Springfield's still.

Some references say that the majority of our forces in Cuba were armed with the 1873. It has been recorded the total inventory of Krags at the start of the war only amounted to 50,000 rifles and 15,000 carbines. If all of those were issued (I am sure they weren't) to the force earmarked for Cuba (125,000 men), only half of those troops would have had Krags.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Some references say that the majority of our forces in Cuba were armed with the 1873. It has been recorded the total inventory of Krags at the start of the war only amounted to 50,000 rifles and 15,000 carbines. If all of those were issued (I am sure they weren't) to the force earmarked for Cuba (125,000 men), only half of those troops would have had Krags.

How many Spanish aligned troops on the island still had rolling blocks? The US was far from the only country that didn't magically field a complete issue of new rifles as soon as they were adopted.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Ouch! But... it's only going to get worse as time goes on.
Obviously I don't get out much but the last Garrand I saw for sale was a perfect condition Springfield model that was $1,200.00. Of course that was decades ago but I couldn't afford it then either.

I got mine in 2018 for $750, added a new 7.62 NATO barrel and replacement Italian stock and had the rear sight fixed. Total outlay was right around $1200, which I thought was a lot at the time; in current local market I could probably sell it for double that.

Danmark was occupied without a "war" but there was an active underground that did do some fighting back. One of my late cousins was in it.

There was some fighting, but the NAZIs arrived so fast it was virtually a fait accompli before the Danish Army's Krags had much of opportunity to shed German blood.

A wartime member of the Kings Guard (Kongelige Livgarde) gave a talk at my Danish Brotherhood lodge back in the early 1990s about what it was like to serve during the occupation. He was involved in organizing the Jewish rescue to Sweden and said they didn't have much trouble finding and bribing German draftees to look the other way. He reserved most of his ire for a handful of Danish Quislings.

 

[SmeeAgain]

I got mine in 2018 for $750, added a new 7.62 NATO barrel and replacement Italian stock and had the rear sight fixed. Total outlay was right around $1200, which I thought was a lot at the time; in current local market I could probably sell it for double that.

View attachment 1058891



There was some fighting, but the NAZIs arrived so fast it was virtually a fait accompli before the Danish Army's Krags had much of opportunity to shed German blood.

A wartime member of the Kings Guard (Kongelige Livgarde) gave a talk at my Danish Brotherhood lodge back in the early 1990s about what it was like to serve during the occupation. He was involved in organizing the Jewish rescue to Sweden and said they didn't have much trouble finding and bribing German draftees to look the other way. He reserved most of his ire for a handful of Danish Quislings.

$1,200 today for a reliable shooter doesn't sound too bad now. (If we are still talking about the Garrand.)
I'm curious what my grandfather's carbine is worth today. Considering it's pedigree, it could never be sold... but I'm still curious.
Again, it's unrestored, but appears it just left the factory.

 

[d2wing]

Referring to my copy of Arhaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn, shows evidence of 35 individual Sharps rifles and 13 Springfield rifles chambered for 50/70. This cartridge of course would be in the same class at the 45/55 as far as range. No heavier chamberings showed up in the actual physical evidence.

Interesting. Thanks. I would have thought from the accounts that there were more powerful rifles present.

 

[unspellable]

I frequently hear remarks about the Mausrer being superior to the Krag, but I some times wonder if it wasn't really a case of the Mauser was superior to the trapdoor.

 

[Mosin77]

The Spanish had rolling blocks too, so it wasn’t like the US were the only “backwards” ones who couldn’t yet manage to equip all their troops with the latest and greatest.

 

[bannockburn]

Found another photo of my Krag:

 

[.455_Hunter]

Found another photo of my Krag:
View attachment 1058977

Truly a magnificent example of engineering and manufacturing.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Or

Right now the CMP Garands seem the best bargains going, if you're willing to wait your turn.

Just go to the “Store” at CMP Taladega Marksmanship Park and buy one off the rack!
As of 02/11/22, they had 108 Service Grade “specials” @ $750.00. Plus a few higher grades...
Get em while they last!

 

[AlexanderA]

Regarding the question of reloading time for the Krag vs. the Mauser, you have to consider how the ammunition was carried as well as the design of the rifle. The Krag cartridge belt had individual pockets (loops) for each round. (Indeed, some of the later belts had double loops to double the ammo capacity.) For a newly-issued belt, the fit of the rounds could be quite tight. That meant that the ammo had to be dug out of the belt individually, and I imagine that would be time-consuming. One of the huge advantages of the Springfield M1903 was that it was charger-loading.

 

[codytrucker]

At San Juan hill , a group of a little over 500 Spanish with Mauser rifles held their own pretty well against 16 to 1 odds . Mostly due to being entrenched ,having the high ground and being well rested. It was American Gatling guns that carried the day more than anything else . Especially the devastation one dealt out on the Spanish counter attack . Without the Gatling guns , Ord's charge would of likely gone down in history more like Pickets at Gettysburg . Have to wonder if the soldiers assaulting the hill were inflicting any casualties at all on the defenders .
Between the Spanish American war , and the Boer war in South Africa , the Mauser rifle must of been very, very well respected around the turn of the century .

 

[SmeeAgain]

Regarding the question of reloading time for the Krag vs. the Mauser, you have to consider how the ammunition was carried as well as the design of the rifle. The Krag cartridge belt had individual pockets (loops) for each round. (Indeed, some of the later belts had double loops to double the ammo capacity.) For a newly-issued belt, the fit of the rounds could be quite tight. That meant that the ammo had to be dug out of the belt individually, and I imagine that would be time-consuming. One of the huge advantages of the Springfield M1903 was that it was charger-loading.

My grandfather joined the US Army shortly after the SA War. He was issued a Krag Carbine. (Which he retained throughout WW1)
I have his cartridge belt but don't know if it was upgraded during his service. I do know his weapon wasn't.
Anyway the belt I have is tan canvas, with pockets not loops. It would be interesting to learn when the upgrade took place.
Such a simple thing like this could make a tremendous difference in battle.

 

[AlexanderA]

Anyway the belt I have is tan canvas, with pockets not loops. It would be interesting to learn when the upgrade took place.

The belts with pockets were adopted along with the M1903 Springfield. But they would have also been issued to troops armed with Krags. The Krag rounds would have been carried loose in the pockets, obviously not on clips. A standardized system of web gear was adopted in 1910. With changes, this lasted all the way into the 1950's.

Here's a picture from the Spanish-American War of troops with Krags and double-loop (100 round) cartridge belts:

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

That's a very cool picture.
But that guy in the foreground should have dug a deeper trench...

 

[AlexanderA]

But that guy in the foreground should have dug a deeper trench...

My guess is that they were doing target practice, and this wasn't actual combat. Note the guy on the right doing spotting with binoculars.