308 Win vs 30-40 Krag

[Dr T]

How much better is the 308 Winchester than the 30-40 Krag as a hunting cartridge.

As I prepare for the hunting season this fall, I have been contemplating the rifles with which I have hunted. In an earlier discussion, the consensus of the contributors was that one of the key factors was the comfort of the hunter with the rifle.

That said, I have killed a fair number of deer with the 30-40 Krag and the 308 Win. My hunting 308 is a Ruger Frontier with a conventionally (not scout) mounted scope with a 16.5" barrel. The Krag has a longer barrel (I haven't measured it in the last 40 years, but I seem to recall that it is about 21") with an extractor mounted peep sight. With my handloads for the old Springfield, I suspect that it and the Ruger are about the same velocity given the same weight of bullets. Both rifles are handy, and point nicely.

One major difference is that the Krag is rimmed and has a case that is more tapered than the 308. This not so much a factor now, but in days of yore, it made the cartridge more easy to chamber and extract in less than ideal conditions (take a look at the 300 H&H and its child the 300 Weatherby Magnum and you will get the idea).

There is no question that the 308 is a superb hunting round. It has a huge variety of factory loads and is available world wide. But, the 30-40 Krag is also a superb hunting round. The Krag Rifle has the smoothest bolt action I have ever used, and is far easier to load and unload than any rifle with a fixed magazine that I own. However, the action of the Krag is far weaker than the Ruger.

So, at the end of the day, the 308 Win in the Frontier gets the nod over the old Krag. But it is a decision born of convenience (availability of lots of factory ammo with acceptable accuracy and better sights for aging eyes), not on the paper performance of the cartridge. Because, at the end of the day, as hunting rounds they are pretty close in performance.

 

[kozak6]

Just looking at the numbers, it looks like the .30-40 Krag is about between .30-30 and .308 in performance.

That's plenty enough, but I don't think I've ever seen a box of it on a shelf.

Ammoseek doesn't turn up any. MidwayUSA doesn't have any. Brass looks like it's around $2 per casing if you can even find it. There are two boxes of hunting ammo pushing $100 each on gunbroker.

The complete and total lack of availability is so discouraging that I'm not sure it even matters how effective it is.

 

[nhcruffler]

I have done a lot of hunting with a sporterized , dont laugh, MAS 36. I have used both 308 and 30-40 Craig load data for that 7.5 for years. I will guess you reload so cost of obsolete ammo is nill. You, like me , sound like you are getting older. I recently bought a Savage bolt gun in 3006 and its sweet. Love the scope and how light it is. It is my go to rifle. But, I still take out the ol Golden State Arms MAS from time to time because its like an old friend.

 

[X-Rap]

Here is what stuck out to me.

With my handloads for the old Springfield, I suspect that it and the Ruger are about the same velocity given the same weight of bullets.

However, the action of the Krag is far weaker than the Ruger.

 

[Slamfire]

I looked up on the web and the case capacities of the two cases are as follows:

Case capacity

30-40 Krag 58.0 gr H2O (3.76 cm3)
308 Winchester (W-W): 53.5 grains

The 308 Winchester is reaching its performance by increased pressure, the 30-40 Krag has more powder space so it can push the same bullet to the same velocity as a 308 Win, at lesser pressures, or faster, with higher pressures.

The 30-40 Krag has always been limited in pressure because of the 1890's metallurgy of the US Service rifles that chambered the round. The action is a one lugger and the plain carbon steels of the era were very inconsistent, lots of slag, inclusions, and impurities, all of which weakened the steel of the era. I have seen cracked Krag bolts, others have said the things were flame hardened.

There is no reason why the Krag can't provide a much higher level of performance than the factory ammunition, just that factory ammunition has to be safe in the older rifles. One good characteristic of the 30-40 Krag is the long case neck which made this cartridge a favorite for case bullet shooters. One of the most popular Lyman bullet molds, 311284 was designed for the Krag, used in 600 yard competition then, and is still a popular cast mold today. http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/select-mould-rifle.php?styleRef=cat06

Even at the low velocities of the factory rounds, 2100 fps with a 220 grain bullet, 2500 with a 165, the Krag was a favorite and popular hunting round up to WW2. Period bullets were inconsistent in expansion, it is well known that the same bullets pushed at Weatherby speeds would blow up basically, but at the velocities of the Krag cartridge, the same bullets gave excellent penetration through game. Any animal hit with a 200 grain cast bullet at 1800-2000 fps is going to have a serious wound, and hunters were very happy with the overall performance. What really killed the Krag were the rifles the cartridge was chambered, that is they were iron sighters unless you put a lot of money into the things, the low pressures the factory rounds were held at, and the popularity of the 30-06. The 30-06 could shoot every bullet you could put into the Krag, at higher pressures and velocities. Then the rifles you could buy in 30-06 were in modern alloy steels and post WW2, they all were drilled and tapped for scopes.

 

[eastbank]

i own two krags, a browning repo 1895 lever action and a winchester repo high wall single shot carbine and while i can reload them to a lot higher pressure than factory loads, i have found no need to do so. in modern normal reloads the 30-40 krag is more like the 300 savage. i do like a rimmed case in my single shot rifles as they chamber easier than non rimmed cases. as for the old krags, i owned a very good sporterized carbine years ago and found it to be a top notch large game rifle. and i own four 308 rifles and also find them to be a top notch large game rifles. but its no contest when both are loaded to their top allowed pressure, the 308 comes out on top with all bullets. all that being said the krag will still get the job done with out muss or fuss. eastbank.

 

[bannockburn]

kozak6

I have found .30-40 Krag ammo on occasion at a few of the local gun shows. Haven't found much online in quite awhile.

 

[natman]

With my handloads for the old Springfield, I suspect that it and the Ruger are about the same velocity given the same weight of bullets.

I hope this means that you're downloading the 308 to 30-40 velocity rather than the other way around.

There are some rifle / cartridge combinations where there's room to improve performance, but original Krag rifles are NOT one of them. The action is wonderfully smooth and the machining is amazing, but it's just not a very strong action and should not be loaded any hotter than stock.

 

[Bbear]

Comparing ballistics of the 30-40 Krag and 308 and the 300 Savage, All using the same powder and same weight bullet (150 gr). The 300 Savage shows a max velocity of 2565 fps. Next up would be the 30-40 Krag with a velocity of 2695 and finally the 308 Win with a velocity of 2900.
All 3 are proven takers of game animals and have been for nearly a century on 2 of them (the 300 Savage and 30-40 Krag).
Slamfire is correct on the 'demise' of the Krag round but, I would add that the biggest problem with it was the rifle it came in. It just isn't a strong enough action to handle much more pressure than it does (Max of about 39-40K CUP). They're great old rifles and fun to tinker around with. In their time, they were the whizz-bang, wow cartridge but were quickly replaced by the 30-03 and then the 30-06 cartridges and later, the 308.
To direct a response to the OP's question of 'how much better' - ballistically, about 2-300 fps. BOTH will take game quickly and cleanly using modern powders and projectiles.
I'd suggest taking the ol' Krag out just for nostalgia reasons alone. Those old rifles deserve to be more than safe queens.

 

[boom boom]

Love Krags, have several of them. Major issue is ammo--Remington in the past has sold Krag ammo every hunting season--it will appear and then quickly disappear and it is the old style bonded bullet--it is a Core Lokt 180gr. PSP. It is an excellent candidate for cast bullets as noted above and quite effective loads exist for hunting with those. Can reform cases--ironically people used to form .303 British cases from Krag cases but now people are doing the reverse conversion. As an interesting side note, some Krags will handle spitzer ammo from the magazine and others will choke--it seems to be an individual rifle sort of thing.

Xrap, Springfield Armory made all of the U.S. Krags so that is probably what the OP was suggesting. I've sometimes heard people call the Trapdoor model a Springfield as well which is technically accurate but not common usage.

Major cause of the cracked bolt lug in Krags was that the Army tried to spice up the round after the Spanish American War and the action could not take it. Krags have a sort of last ditch safety lug with the bolt handle serving as such by it locking for firing into a recess of the receiver. The 94 and 96 version is more elaborate in this receiver recess. This type of last ditch safety is similar to the 95 Chilean Mauser models.

.308's really should be considered more with the .30-06 in performance as there is widespread availability of ammo and reloading supplies.

 

[boom boom]

One must consider that the first wave of converting to smokeless powder among nations was a trial and error sort of thing. The Krag should then be compared with the Long Lee, 88 Commission Rifles, Lebels, 1891 Mosin's, Carcano's, 1893-96 Mausers, Steyr Mannlichers, Type 30 Japanese, etc. All used carbon steels and crude heat treatments, all were designed for lower pressure cartridges about 40,000 psi or so and round tipped bullets.

The second generation followed quickly from lessons learned from these--the iconic Mauser 98's, 1903 Springfields, the SMLE, K31's etc--pressures for these cartridges is moderately higher, generally better heat treatment using pyrometers, different rifling and safety provisions, and designed from the start for spitzer type bullets.

Third generation of military bolt rifles used newer and better metallurgy, better sights, simplified production techniques (stamping instead of forging and machining), etc.

Fourth generation military became the self loading revolution which is still going on today while bolt actions still exist for certain tasks.

All of these solutions still work within their design parameters--even black powder rifles can kill game and people at a distance despite being obsolete technology. Witness the popularity of Black Powder Silhouette shooting using original and replica designs. The .22 rimfire in its different permutations is ancient in design and technology but still works today.

As always, it depends on what someone wants to do and what you like. Just be safe and don't push the envelope in whatever hardware you are using.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

That's plenty enough, but I don't think I've ever seen a box of it on a shelf.

Ammoseek doesn't turn up any. MidwayUSA doesn't have any. Brass looks like it's around $2 per casing if you can even find it. There are two boxes of hunting ammo pushing $100 each on gunbroker.

I never have trouble finding 30-40 Krag on the shelves at any of my local LGS's. Maybe they just had an abundance of it and I am the only sucker around here that still buys it!

 

[Nature Boy]

Interesting trivia I just found.

The world record elk for many years was one taken in 1899 with a .30-40 Krag, scoring 442 3/8

That record stood until 1968 when a hunter killed one scoring 442 5/8 using a Savage Model 99 .308

What's the moral of this story? Heck if I know, I just thought it was neat. Maybe it means both are capable of taking some REALLY big game.

 

[Jim Watson]

I always liked the CotW entry on the .30 Purdey. (Dropped in the 12th edition.)
It is the British version of the .30 Army (Krag), they say loaded a bit hotter for strong falling block and double express rifles. I guess it would have sold to hunters going to India and the Sudan where military calibres were not allowed.

 

[Officers'Wife]

If you are comparing ballistics the .308 every day and twice on Sundays. If you are comparing rifles things get a bit more complicated... Which one can you put a bullet closer to the kill area at range after lugging the thing around all day? Which one flies up to your shoulder naturally and settles on the sight picture instinctively?

My Gramps (may he rest in peace) had a standard answer for these kinds of questions... It ain't the machine it's the operator.

 

[tark]

Kozak6, the Gander Mountain in Peoria has about twenty boxes of 30-40 ammo Brand new Remington 180 grain stuff. I think it is $29 a box. Saw it at Scheels in Iowa City, Iowa too. The stuff is out there. Just expensive. I think PPU is also making it. They are probably cheaper.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If you are going to do 30-40 Krag, reload your own.

In fact, I'd do that anyway, .308, 30-06, 30/30, 30-40, etc. Reload your own.

Deaf

 

[Dr T]

Since the question was, quite validly raised, let me qualify my comment on velocity.

First, many velocity numbers published in ballistics tables are taken in pressure barrels. These tend to be 24" long.

Thus, when looking at the performance out of a particular rifle, they should NEVER be considered as the absolute truth. The published figures are only a guide.

Here is a case in point: I have a very accurate Ruger M77 in 270 Win. I have an accurate handload which I developed that, according to the ballistics tables in the reloading manual should chronograph at 3050 fps. However, when I chronographed the load at the range, the actual average velocity was 2750 fps.

When I stated that the 30-40 Krag and the 308 Ruger Frontier were probably generating the about the same velocity, this was because that the difference in barrel length (22" for the Krag versus 16.5" for the Ruger) served to level the playing field. The 5.5" inches of barrel would tend to shave quite a bit off of the paper advantage in velocity that the 308 has over the 30-40. If you believe the experiments in velocity conducted in the 30's (Hatcher?) this would imply that a 308 fired from a 22" barrel would have a velocity of from about 140 fps to 275 fps HIGHER than one fired from a 16.5" barrel. No magic involved, just more time for the gas to expand. Thus the paper advantage in velocity of the 308 over the 30-40 would tend to go up in smoke (even though the cartridges use smokeless powder:-O).

And what real difference does 100 fps make in the field. Confidence in the rifle, bullet placement, and bullet performance all all more important. Back about 25 or 30 years ago, I did a lot of modeling of trajectories using (the then new) exterior ballistics software for PCs. Based on that modeling I used what the Sierra manual (the old 3 ring binder one) called Point Blank Range (PBR) to determine how I should be sighting in my hunting rifles. The PBR is the maximum range at which you can hold your sights dead center on a target 10" in diameter and hit it. The 10" diameter is based on the size of the vital area of a whitetail. This means if you hold dead on, the bullet will stay within +/- 5" vertically of your point of aim. The modeling lead me to three rules of thumb:

1. For the way that I hunt, and the rifles I use (with MVs from 2500 fps to 3000 fps), I should sight my hunting rifles in 3" high at 100 yards.
2. A rifle sighted in 3" high at 100 yards will have a PB range in yards of (MV in fps)/10. That is, a rifle with a MV of 2700 fps will have (for me) an effective hunting range in the field of 270 yards without any fancy range estimations (done by eye without instrumentation, I am horrible at correctly guessing distances in the field).
3. This one is the point of this discussion: EVERY EXTRA 100 fps OF VELOCITY ONLY GETS YOU AN EXTRA 10 yds OF EFFECTIVE HUNTING RANGE. At least, given my ethics of the fair chase, it will only get me an extra 10 yds. And since I am terrible at guessing distances, 10 yds really doesn't matter that much. But for some rifles, my shoulder can tell the difference (think 35 Whelen with a 225 gr bullet).

The reason that I belabor this point is that I fear that too many decisions made by relatively new shooters are based on the published numbers without consideration of other factors. And the factors are many.

 

[stoky]

Dr T's velocity vs barrel length numbers are a a lot closer to my experiences than many of the numbers that are bandied about, usually preceded by "only" in rationalizations for short barrels.
Another anecdotal note; a buddy of mine had a custom high wall built by one of the Montana outfits that specializes in such things. They recommended .30-40 as a mid bore cartridge.

 

[boom boom]

Dr. T, how about people with old eyes that like the 30 inch barrelled version?

Seriously, I have several rifles, including a Krag, with 29-30 inch barrels that date from those early smokeless designs. Since I like shooting with iron sights as that is the way I learned, the long sight radius is a blessing.

Most of those turn of the century rifles had the long barrels as a relic from blackpowder days when smokeless was young. Smart armies figured out pretty quick that a shorter barrel 21-25 inches was more useful overall without giving up much lethality or range using smokeless. It also reduced logistics in not supporting separate barrel and stock lengths depending on the unit's function.

As all of the closest ranges are indoor in my suburban locale, the old long barrels are more pleasant to fire indoors than the shorties and the 1901 sights on a long barrelled Krag are a marvel which prefigure the 1903 target type sights.

 

[Float Pilot]

My only current rifle chambered in 30-40 Krag is an original model 1895 Winchester rifle with a 24 inch barrel. ( somebody cut the barrel long ago) Sold my 1898 Krag rifle.


I use a low pressure load of 46-47 grains of IMR 4831 that gives me 2,300 to 2350 fps from a 180 grain round nose bullet. Within 150-200 yards no moose can tell the difference. If you zero the sights for 130-150 yards it is only 4 or 5 inches low at 200 yards and only a couple inches high at 100. Just right for ethical hunting with open sights.

I like the round nose for large game within a 250 yards.