30-40 Krag Vs 03 Springfield

[mokin]

...
Now, where the comparisons get very interesting is looking at the 6mm Lee Adopted by the Navy Department versus the contemporary 30-40 Krag adopted by the War Department. The 6mm Lee was a barrel burner with the metallurgy of the day, and well ahead of well time. The straight pull made for a different arm than the Krag, too.

Thanks for speaking up about the 6mm Lee. I believe it was well ahead of its time as well.

The Spanish American War is really interesting in lots of respects. A lot of transition. While the 30-40 was a fine cartridge there was too much change going on around it and everyone wanted to have the most modern army in the world. Rimmed cartridges were so 1890s.

Only slightly off topic, at the moment I'm reading the book "On Time for Disaster," the journal of Brigadier Gen. Edward McClernand. In 1876 he was a Second Lieutenant in the column Custer was supposed to wait for. In the Spanish American War he was a general and served in both Cuba and the Philippines. Although he undoubtedly gained experience with all the rifles discussed here, he doesn't mention them.

He was also awarded a Congressional Medal of Honor but that's way off topic.

 

[someguy2800]

An anecdote comment on the heat treatment of Krags. When I bought my krag sporter it only had iron sights on it which were useless to me because it has a Monte Carlo stock and I could not get my line of sight low enough to actually see through them. I knew I wanted to put a scope on it anyway so I just removed them. However nobody actually makes a scope mount for a krag that actually places the scope above the rifle, they are all offset to the side, so I made my own. The front base is a conventional Luepold dovetail base but the rear base has to attach to the side and cantilever over the top because krags do not have a receiver bridge in the rear.



Anyway, when I drilled and tapped my receiver for the scope mount holes I was surprised to find the front receiver bridge is quite soft, like no harder than hot rolled mild steel, and it drilled and tapped very easily. The rear of the receiver though is very very hard. I had to buy a cobalt drill bit to have any hope of drilling it and it was very difficult to tap. It does bring to one’s attention that heat treatment on these old things are a wildcard. Stay safe.

 

[HowieG]

Interesting. Thanks. I would have thought from the accounts that there were more powerful rifles present.

It must be remembered that all of the big cartridges of that era, both 45 and 50 caliber, used black powder and fired bullets at similar, fairly low, velocities. The big problem was hitting anything past 150 yards because of the rainbow trajectories. The average rifleman on that battlefield, cavalry or Indian, wasn't able to hit much at any range beyond point blank except by luck. The men who died with Custer were mostly overrun and killed at close range. Those troops in the hilltop fight with Reno and Benteen fared better because they were mostly able to keep their opponents at a distance.

 

[codytrucker]

It must be remembered that all of the big cartridges of that era, both 45 and 50 caliber, used black powder and fired bullets at similar, fairly low, velocities. The big problem was hitting anything past 150 yards because of the rainbow trajectories. The average rifleman on that battlefield, cavalry or Indian, wasn't able to hit much at any range beyond point blank except by luck. The men who died with Custer were mostly overrun and killed at close range. Those troops in the hilltop fight with Reno and Benteen fared better because they were mostly able to keep their opponents at a distance.

Its hard to fathom the army doing away with the Spencer carbines , which gave up very little in practical ballistics to the 45-55 carbine loaded trapdoors, when the amount of firepower they offered was so superior . Talk about going backwards.
If instead of putting cardboard tubes in 45-70 cases , they had just shortened the case length , that would of probably worked in a repeating carbine . Especially with about a 325 -350 grain bullet.
But I guess back then the cost of men vs material was much different then today.

 

[Jim Watson]

Its hard to fathom the army doing away with the Spencer carbines ,

The Spencer Rifle Co. folded in 1869. Winchester bought out their assets but elected to not produce the rifles in competition with their own design. By 1876 the guns were worn out with no parts, service, or replacements available. The Army obviously thought the Trapdoor, made in house with designs and equipment dating back many years was adequate. Not with Custer's tactics, they weren't.

 

[Slamfire]

War Department "Gun Quality Steel" and "Armor Plate" were two types of steel required to be virgin steel, so this really doesn't apply to Krags and the M1903s

From your vast database of Government reports, behind that DoD firewall, how about finding a document showing a chemical analysis of the Class C steels used in Krag's and Springfields. Not the specifications which were this:

Class C steel

Carbon per cent: 0.20-0.30
Manganese per cent: 1.0-1.30
Silicon 0.05-0.10
Max Ph per cent: 0.50
Max Su per cent : 0.50

but a chemical analysis of the actual composition of the steels. I have no idea what is meant by virgin steel, perhaps the specification you have can describe what is virgin steel.

I hope the military was not requiring a virgin to be tossed in each ladle, such as was done for bell casting

 

[lysanderxiii]

Virgin steel is steel made from virgin ore, ie, no scrap.

This allows better control of alloy content.

Oh, and all the reports just state, to paraphrase, "meets specification," unless it

 

[MoscowMike]

If you are really interested in the Krag, Othias and Mae at C&Rsenal did a great, thorough series on the various Danish, Norwegian and US versions, including a short one on a Krag Speed Loader. Here's the links to the episodes I found.


#063 -US

#132 Danish Krag

#133 Danish Carbine

https://candrsenal.com/krag-jorgensen-speed-loader/ Speed Loader

https://candrsenal.com/small-arms-of-wwi-primer-134-norwegian-krag-jorgensen-1894/ #134 Norwegian

https://candrsenal.com/small-arms-of-wwi-primer-135-norwegian-krag-carbines/ #135 Norwegian Carbine

It's marvelous rifle and I wish I owned one, but by WWI there were better battle implements

 

[792mauser]

Reloading the krag in a hurry is a exercise in aggravation.
Have a 1896 carbine-ed rifle. Tried loading it on the range from a box on the belt and a section of loops on the belt.
Spilled on the ground far more than I ever got in the magazine.

And if you feed them in wrong they foul up the magazine something spectacular.

Yeah.... no... the Krag is definitely inferior to dang near any bolt action repeater..
Except in smoothness and maybe classy-ness.

 

[tark]

Reloading the krag in a hurry is a exercise in aggravation.

Unless you use the speed loader in the link in post # 108. Faster that any clip loading system. However, I suspect that that speed loader is not a disposable item, like a stripper clip. That would be a disadvantage.

 

[HowieG]

Its hard to fathom the army doing away with the Spencer carbines , which gave up very little in practical ballistics to the 45-55 carbine loaded trapdoors, when the amount of firepower they offered was so superior . Talk about going backwards.
If instead of putting cardboard tubes in 45-70 cases , they had just shortened the case length , that would of probably worked in a repeating carbine . Especially with about a 325 -350 grain bullet.
But I guess back then the cost of men vs material was much different then today.

I can't say they weren't right. Crook's forces expended 25,000 rounds during the Rosebud fight. Now, in our era of automatic weapons fire, 250,000 rounds were expended for every dead insurgent in Iraq. Everybody in these modern times just doesn't think about what it took to transport ammo and supplies to the field of battle during the Indian wars. It was a major undertaking to say the least, and ammo weighs a lot! They didn't have trucks or C-17 aircraft.

For some insight in how difficult the supply issue was, please consider this report about Custer's mule train.

Microsoft Word - NH1976PackTrain intro.doc (nebraska.gov)

 

[tark]

oops, put this in the wrong thread. Meant to put it id "old school rifles"

 

[tark]

I sent you a PM, Slamfire. You can breath easy. The weapons are safe.

 

[Slamfire]

Virgin steel is steel made from virgin ore, ie, no scrap.

This allows better control of alloy content.

Oh, and all the reports just state, to paraphrase, "meets specification," unless it

Shame you could not find an Army metallurigical analysis of a single heat treat, or double heat treat M1903. Look hard did you?

I could not find the

War Department "Gun Quality Steel" and "Armor Plate"

specifications you referred. Would you provide a specification number, full title, and a date of applicability?

And, what evidence do you have that these specifications were applied to the material purchases of the Krag and M1903? You have the purchase orders of Springfield Arsenal during that period?

 

[d2wing]

I can't say they weren't right. Crook's forces expended 25,000 rounds during the Rosebud fight. Now, in our era of automatic weapons fire, 250,000 rounds were expended for every dead insurgent in Iraq. Everybody in these modern times just doesn't think about what it took to transport ammo and supplies to the field of battle during the Indian wars. It was a major undertaking to say the least, and ammo weighs a lot! They didn't have trucks or C-17 aircraft.

For some insight in how difficult the supply issue was, please consider this report about Custer's mule train.

Microsoft Word - NH1976PackTrain intro.doc (nebraska.gov)

Interesting read. As a convoy specialist I can relate.

 

[HowieG]

Interesting read. As a convoy specialist I can relate.

I gathered that convoy specialists weren't very common in 1876. I also gathered that Custer didn't think about it much. No matter. The Indian's said they procured lots of 45-55 ammo from the dead soldiers, so the fight didn't last long enough for ammo resupply to be an issue for GAC.

 

[d2wing]

I gathered that convoy specialists weren't very common in 1876. I also gathered that Custer didn't think about it much. No matter. The Indian's said they procured lots of 45-55 ammo from the dead soldiers, so the fight didn't last long enough for ammo resupply to be an issue for GAC.

I gathered that convoy specialists weren't very common in 1876. I also gathered that Custer didn't think about it much. No matter. The Indian's said they procured lots of 45-55 ammo from the dead soldiers, so the fight didn't last long enough for ammo resupply to be an issue for GAC.

I suppose I should have said supply and transportation. Yes, Custer did not anticipate a sustained defensive battle.

 

[HowieG]

I suppose I should have said supply and transportation. Yes, Custer did not anticipate a sustained defensive battle.

I doubt he anticipated any defensive battle at all. He was an offense type of guy. Ironically, my Great Grandfather and Great Uncle had a chance to kill him before the Indians did. They served with the 7th Georgia Cav, Army of Northern Virginia Cavalry Corp. They were in direct combat with George and his troopers at Trevilian Station in June of 1864, almost exactly twelve years before the Little Bighorn fight. They missed.