natedog
Member
What would be a good defensive load for a 4" .38 Special? +P is ok- HP or JHP are preferred.
.38 Special defensive loads
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Ben Shepherd
Member
Natedog, do a search on this, look for posts by Jim March. I'm sure you'll learn what you want to know.
Ric
Member
In my experience (limited compared to many here)
I have the best results with Gold Dots
Shoots to point of aim every time, very consistant
I have the best results with Gold Dots
Shoots to point of aim every time, very consistant
ChristopherG
Member
Speer is just coming out with a set of Gold Dots geared for .38 speeds. There's a 110gr for superlight .38s; a 135gr for snub revolvers; and a 147gr for 4" barrels. This will be a +P round, I'm quite sure; but the question you ask, "is +P okay?", is a question about your gun, not the ammo. If your gun is a modern .38 from a well-know american manufacturer, it's almost certainly okay to use +p ammo--but let us know what model and make it is to be on the safe side.
Assuming +P is okay, I would say this new 147 Gold Dot is/willbe the best load money can buy. Prior to that, the best thing out was generally agreed to be a 158 gr. LSWCHP, loaded by Remington and Winchester and, coming this summer, in a superior (but very costly) version by Buffalo Bore, which somehow gets moving at over a thousand fps but still is rated safe for normal modern 38s.
Assuming +P is okay, I would say this new 147 Gold Dot is/willbe the best load money can buy. Prior to that, the best thing out was generally agreed to be a 158 gr. LSWCHP, loaded by Remington and Winchester and, coming this summer, in a superior (but very costly) version by Buffalo Bore, which somehow gets moving at over a thousand fps but still is rated safe for normal modern 38s.
tbeb
Member
I like the +P Federal 158 gr. lead hollowpoint.
My wife likes the +P Federal Hi-Shok 125 gr. JHP, because it recoils a little less than the above 158 grainer. The +P Federal Hydra-Shok 129 gr. JHP is a good choice too.
I like Federal ammunition because their primers are easy to ignite.
My wife likes the +P Federal Hi-Shok 125 gr. JHP, because it recoils a little less than the above 158 grainer. The +P Federal Hydra-Shok 129 gr. JHP is a good choice too.
I like Federal ammunition because their primers are easy to ignite.
James Bondrock
Member
Generally, the best .38 Spl. defense loads fall into two categories: the various 125-grain jacketed hollowpoints and the 158-grain all lead (not jacketed) hollowpoint, both at +P (higher than standard for this cartridge) pressure/velocity. (I would not recommend them for a pre-WWII Colt Police Positive Special -- actually a small-frame revolver -- or similar.) Any good American-made medium-frame revolver should be able to handle at least moderate use of these loads without damage. Since this is a four-inch and the .38 Spl. is not a high velocity cartridge anyway, I would say load the heavier bullet weight. The new Speer Gold Dot 135-grain JHP looks promising, however. It hits 1000 fps from a four-inch barrel and about 870 from a two-inch, per a recent article in American Handgunner. If your revolver has fixed sights, there is also point of impact vs. point of aim to consider.
Jim March
Member
You know, I'm not sure I like the looks of that 147 Gold Dot.
On the other hand, the 135 Gold Dot looks GREAT. The photos Speer has published of expanded rounds in denim-covered gel and a 2" barrel not only look good, it's clear the hollowpoint cavity hasn't yet "bottomed out", so they're good for at least another 100 - 150fps and probably 200 no sweat. Which means they'll be just fine in 4" tubes and I'm 90% sure they'll hold together and maintain expansion in 6" tubes. What else...Speer claims this new 135 is good at not getting "jerked out of the shells on recoil" (aka "jumping crimp") in superlight guns, so this could be THE answer the Scandium/Titanium/Aluminum crowd has been looking for.
Other choices:
* The Remington and Winchester 158grain lead hollowpoint in 38+P are more or less the same load...the Remmie is maybe a hair faster. They'll expand at around 825fps, do about 850 from a 2" tube and about 900 from a 4". These old classics just work, period. A great choice in cold weather where a deep punch past heavy clothes is required. Even when they fail to expand, the "semi-wadcutter profile" with it's flat nose has more wounding on tap than the basically round-nose profile of some of these others. (You'll hear of some people recommending this same basic load but without the hollowpoint cavity, called a "Keith profile", and with some merit.)
* Bufallo Bore is about to ship a supercharged version of the above - same basic slug but doing 1,000fps from a 2" so figure 1,050 - 1,100 from a 4". This is MAJOR energy levels, over 350ft/lbs, into the low end of 357 power levels but they're claiming no extreme pressures due to careful modern powder choices. Still, I wouldn't use these in a marginal gun...late model K-Frame 38, any 38spl variant Ruger Service/Security Six series, 38spl SP101, late-model J-Frame 38 would be fine. A few others mebbe...not THAT many others though. Not my own Charter Arms Undercover fr'instance.
* Cor-Bon has a new 100grain Pow'R'Ball in 38Spl. From a 4" barrel it oughta get a good head of steam up. I don't like how light Cor-Bon went on this load but the advantage is that the design can't "clog". Hollowpoint cavities can fill with clothes...which can retard or eliminate expansion. Cor-Bon got the bright idea of shoving a rubber ball in the cavity, "clogging it" from the get-go. The ball is shoved deeper in, begins the otherwise normal JHP expansion process, then falls away once the lead/copper has "gone fat enough". Peak expansion then matches typical hollowpoints of convensional type. Upshot: a clogproof JHP.
* Winchester's 130grain Supreme +P is a JHP with a really, REALLY big hollowpoint cavity. It works well enough in 2" tubes, should be just fine in a 4". This round really started the "huge hollowpoint specially for 38Spls" trend that the Gold Dot 135 seems to have copied...arguably better, but this Winnie ain't bad either.
* Speer's 125grain +P worked OK too, in 2" and esp. 4" barrels. The 135 will probably be better but if you can't get 'em...OH, and Bufallo Bore is about to load this older projectile at wild-child speeds...in a really good 38 gun, that might have merit.
Speer tends to sell their projectiles as components. Georgia Arms, Proload, Black Hills, Bufallo Bore and others are "Gold Dot houses" of good repute. So far, they don't have access to the newest 135 in VERY high demand but that will eventually change. Georgia Arms in particular has really good deals on 100-count batches.
Bufallo Bore's pair of super-hot 38Spls won't be shipping for another couple of months. We can bet those will be damned good loads though...both projectiles are well-known, well-documented beasties so if they get up the kind of speeds they're predicting...OH ya. In good guns, anyways.
The Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball 100 is the "wildcard" in the deck...it could be really good, or it could be a stinker. Independent test data eagerly awaited.
Gold Dot bullets always have relatively thin jackets that are electro-plate bonded to the lead. This helps them expand at lower speeds, yet with the lead hard-stuck to the jacket they resist "overspeed shredding of the nosecone". So as a rule of thumb, their "performance envelope" tends to run across a 200 feet-per-second range or better. The 135 is designed to expand at 825ish, does 850 - 875 from a 2", guesstimate 925 - 950 from your 4" which is right smack in that slug's "sweet spot". This also suggests that running the 125 Gold Dot at wild speeds like BuffBore plans is a basically good idea...but I like their 158 even better
.
The reason the 147 Gold Dot concerns me is, I know these are going to need 850 - 900ish and I'm just not sure you'll get that...esp. in those rare cases where you take a 50yd shot and the round loses 50fps or more on the way.
Since the 135 isn't running at the top of it's performance range and can go faster without coming unglued, I'd use that in a 4" tube over the 147.
Hmmm...lemme make sure I'm clear here: where possible, run a round in the MIDDLE of it's known velocity range versus at the extreme top or bottom. In a 2" barrel gun, you basically can't, you're doing good if you can get into the bottom (the BuffBore 158 may prove an exception as it works at 850 and you're pulling 1,000!). But with a 4" barrel, you CAN get into these slug's performance envelope...way deep in, with a lot of loads. BUT the 147 Gold Dot will still be at the bottom. When everything goes right, it'll kick butt but things do NOT always go right...heavy clothes, barriers, long range or some combo will conspire to Murphyize you. If your round is 100fps over it's gotta-have-it minimum, you're much more heavily Murphy-proofed than otherwise.
On the other hand, the 135 Gold Dot looks GREAT. The photos Speer has published of expanded rounds in denim-covered gel and a 2" barrel not only look good, it's clear the hollowpoint cavity hasn't yet "bottomed out", so they're good for at least another 100 - 150fps and probably 200 no sweat. Which means they'll be just fine in 4" tubes and I'm 90% sure they'll hold together and maintain expansion in 6" tubes. What else...Speer claims this new 135 is good at not getting "jerked out of the shells on recoil" (aka "jumping crimp") in superlight guns, so this could be THE answer the Scandium/Titanium/Aluminum crowd has been looking for.
Other choices:
* The Remington and Winchester 158grain lead hollowpoint in 38+P are more or less the same load...the Remmie is maybe a hair faster. They'll expand at around 825fps, do about 850 from a 2" tube and about 900 from a 4". These old classics just work, period. A great choice in cold weather where a deep punch past heavy clothes is required. Even when they fail to expand, the "semi-wadcutter profile" with it's flat nose has more wounding on tap than the basically round-nose profile of some of these others. (You'll hear of some people recommending this same basic load but without the hollowpoint cavity, called a "Keith profile", and with some merit.)
* Bufallo Bore is about to ship a supercharged version of the above - same basic slug but doing 1,000fps from a 2" so figure 1,050 - 1,100 from a 4". This is MAJOR energy levels, over 350ft/lbs, into the low end of 357 power levels but they're claiming no extreme pressures due to careful modern powder choices. Still, I wouldn't use these in a marginal gun...late model K-Frame 38, any 38spl variant Ruger Service/Security Six series, 38spl SP101, late-model J-Frame 38 would be fine. A few others mebbe...not THAT many others though. Not my own Charter Arms Undercover fr'instance.
* Cor-Bon has a new 100grain Pow'R'Ball in 38Spl. From a 4" barrel it oughta get a good head of steam up. I don't like how light Cor-Bon went on this load but the advantage is that the design can't "clog". Hollowpoint cavities can fill with clothes...which can retard or eliminate expansion. Cor-Bon got the bright idea of shoving a rubber ball in the cavity, "clogging it" from the get-go. The ball is shoved deeper in, begins the otherwise normal JHP expansion process, then falls away once the lead/copper has "gone fat enough". Peak expansion then matches typical hollowpoints of convensional type. Upshot: a clogproof JHP.
* Winchester's 130grain Supreme +P is a JHP with a really, REALLY big hollowpoint cavity. It works well enough in 2" tubes, should be just fine in a 4". This round really started the "huge hollowpoint specially for 38Spls" trend that the Gold Dot 135 seems to have copied...arguably better, but this Winnie ain't bad either.
* Speer's 125grain +P worked OK too, in 2" and esp. 4" barrels. The 135 will probably be better but if you can't get 'em...OH, and Bufallo Bore is about to load this older projectile at wild-child speeds...in a really good 38 gun, that might have merit.
Speer tends to sell their projectiles as components. Georgia Arms, Proload, Black Hills, Bufallo Bore and others are "Gold Dot houses" of good repute. So far, they don't have access to the newest 135 in VERY high demand but that will eventually change. Georgia Arms in particular has really good deals on 100-count batches.
Bufallo Bore's pair of super-hot 38Spls won't be shipping for another couple of months. We can bet those will be damned good loads though...both projectiles are well-known, well-documented beasties so if they get up the kind of speeds they're predicting...OH ya. In good guns, anyways.
The Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball 100 is the "wildcard" in the deck...it could be really good, or it could be a stinker. Independent test data eagerly awaited.
Gold Dot bullets always have relatively thin jackets that are electro-plate bonded to the lead. This helps them expand at lower speeds, yet with the lead hard-stuck to the jacket they resist "overspeed shredding of the nosecone". So as a rule of thumb, their "performance envelope" tends to run across a 200 feet-per-second range or better. The 135 is designed to expand at 825ish, does 850 - 875 from a 2", guesstimate 925 - 950 from your 4" which is right smack in that slug's "sweet spot". This also suggests that running the 125 Gold Dot at wild speeds like BuffBore plans is a basically good idea...but I like their 158 even better
.The reason the 147 Gold Dot concerns me is, I know these are going to need 850 - 900ish and I'm just not sure you'll get that...esp. in those rare cases where you take a 50yd shot and the round loses 50fps or more on the way.
Since the 135 isn't running at the top of it's performance range and can go faster without coming unglued, I'd use that in a 4" tube over the 147.
Hmmm...lemme make sure I'm clear here: where possible, run a round in the MIDDLE of it's known velocity range versus at the extreme top or bottom. In a 2" barrel gun, you basically can't, you're doing good if you can get into the bottom (the BuffBore 158 may prove an exception as it works at 850 and you're pulling 1,000!). But with a 4" barrel, you CAN get into these slug's performance envelope...way deep in, with a lot of loads. BUT the 147 Gold Dot will still be at the bottom. When everything goes right, it'll kick butt but things do NOT always go right...heavy clothes, barriers, long range or some combo will conspire to Murphyize you. If your round is 100fps over it's gotta-have-it minimum, you're much more heavily Murphy-proofed than otherwise.
148gr full wadcutter
If not these:
"All of our recent .38 Special testing has focused on lightweight, 2" J-frames--the wadcutter is a GREAT choice in this format. Although we have not tested .38 Special in 3" & 4" barrels for many years, I suspect with heavier and/or larger revolvers with longer barrels, unless a person shot substantially better with the wadcutters, they would likely be better off using one of the 158 gr +P LSWCHP, 147 gr +P JHP, or 125 gr +P JHP loads. "
then these:
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000282.html
(quote from same forum. a great forum, BTW. Just use the search function before posting!)
C-
If not these:
"All of our recent .38 Special testing has focused on lightweight, 2" J-frames--the wadcutter is a GREAT choice in this format. Although we have not tested .38 Special in 3" & 4" barrels for many years, I suspect with heavier and/or larger revolvers with longer barrels, unless a person shot substantially better with the wadcutters, they would likely be better off using one of the 158 gr +P LSWCHP, 147 gr +P JHP, or 125 gr +P JHP loads. "
then these:
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000282.html
(quote from same forum. a great forum, BTW. Just use the search function before posting!)
C-
Jim March
Member
Well...the SHAPE of the 148 full wadcutter rocks. But the vast majority are loaded to "light target" levels...many can hit 750fps from a 2" barrel only with a MAJOR tailwind . Some barely break 700. I'd much rather have a Keith-profile semi-wadcutter at 850 than a full wad at 750. And the Winchester/Remington/BuffBore 158 lead hollowpoints ARE Keiths if they don't expand.
Sometimes when the Winnies or Remmies fail to expand, the hollow opens a bit to where it's at caliber diameter or a fraction under. Technically, this is still a "failure to expand" but guess what...they've just turned into the functional equivelent of a 148 target wadcutter in shape, with over 100fps more power on tap.
Hey, that ain't bad.
Y'all ever study a velocity/weight/energy conversion table? If not, go check out:
http://naaminis.com/energy.html
Look up the "155grain" line, then look how fast energy rises as velocity goes up. It ain't a simple gradient, it's logarythmic(sp? - sorry).
A 155 load @ 700fps has 145ft/lbs energy. At 850 it's got 249. This makes a diff, fellow gunnies. A big difference indeed. Ask me why I won't load a 148 at 700...
You might get WeShoot2 at Gray Area Ammo to brew you up a batch moving at 850 or better. NOW you're talkin'. Village Metalworks has some wadcutters at 38+P velocities, that's another answer.
. Some barely break 700. I'd much rather have a Keith-profile semi-wadcutter at 850 than a full wad at 750. And the Winchester/Remington/BuffBore 158 lead hollowpoints ARE Keiths if they don't expand. Sometimes when the Winnies or Remmies fail to expand, the hollow opens a bit to where it's at caliber diameter or a fraction under. Technically, this is still a "failure to expand" but guess what...they've just turned into the functional equivelent of a 148 target wadcutter in shape, with over 100fps more power on tap.
Hey, that ain't bad.
Y'all ever study a velocity/weight/energy conversion table? If not, go check out:
http://naaminis.com/energy.html
Look up the "155grain" line, then look how fast energy rises as velocity goes up. It ain't a simple gradient, it's logarythmic(sp? - sorry
).A 155 load @ 700fps has 145ft/lbs energy. At 850 it's got 249. This makes a diff, fellow gunnies. A big difference indeed. Ask me why I won't load a 148 at 700...
You might get WeShoot2 at Gray Area Ammo to brew you up a batch moving at 850 or better. NOW you're talkin'. Village Metalworks has some wadcutters at 38+P velocities, that's another answer.
natedog
Member
Thanks Mr. March! These would be fired out of a Colt Offices Model Heavy Barrel. This gun is a tack driver with heavy bullets- after only about 200 hundred rounds fired through it I am able to group 3" at 25 yards in D/A. With more practice I should improve.
Jim March
Member
Ah yes, that Colt is a GREAT gun.
It was originally meant for lead 148 and 158 loads. It can shoot jacketed and/or lighter, but accuracy will probably be best with lead in that range. (And it'll be damned accurate indeed, that's a GOOD gun.)
Personally, I'd run the Winchester or Remmie 158+P lead hollowpoints for now. Remmies will be a hair hotter...look for them at gun shows or something, or mailorder. Doubt you'll find any at a shop. But the difference won't be extreme, a 4" tube (hey, that's not common at all on that gun!) will drive either fast enough.
Oh, and Cor-Bon used to make these too...reputed to be very hot. They turn up at gun shows sometimes. The BuffBore will be hotter yet. That gun can eat at least modest diets of the BuffBore variant and THOSE will just rock.
Feel free to try out the accuracy of any of the jacketed rounds mentioned but I'll bet that gun's twist rate and groove design will just love heavy lead.
What else...I seem to recall that a lot of VERY fast shooting can put the Python-type lockwork out of whack...hardcore Colt affictionados will be along shortly to confirm. Pythons didn't get hurt by hot loads so much as they did speed-work. What you've got there in case you didn't know is a "pre-Python"...same frame size (the old "41" frame), same speedloaders, same grip compatibility, similar lockwork design. So go easy on the "machine gun trigger work".
I'd probably do most of my shooting with standard-pressure, ending each practice session with a cylinder of +P, plus accuracy-testing any proposed carry/defense load.
It was originally meant for lead 148 and 158 loads. It can shoot jacketed and/or lighter, but accuracy will probably be best with lead in that range. (And it'll be damned accurate indeed, that's a GOOD gun.)
Personally, I'd run the Winchester or Remmie 158+P lead hollowpoints for now. Remmies will be a hair hotter...look for them at gun shows or something, or mailorder. Doubt you'll find any at a shop. But the difference won't be extreme, a 4" tube (hey, that's not common at all on that gun!) will drive either fast enough.
Oh, and Cor-Bon used to make these too...reputed to be very hot. They turn up at gun shows sometimes. The BuffBore will be hotter yet. That gun can eat at least modest diets of the BuffBore variant and THOSE will just rock.
Feel free to try out the accuracy of any of the jacketed rounds mentioned but I'll bet that gun's twist rate and groove design will just love heavy lead.
What else...I seem to recall that a lot of VERY fast shooting can put the Python-type lockwork out of whack...hardcore Colt affictionados will be along shortly to confirm. Pythons didn't get hurt by hot loads so much as they did speed-work. What you've got there in case you didn't know is a "pre-Python"...same frame size (the old "41" frame), same speedloaders, same grip compatibility, similar lockwork design. So go easy on the "machine gun trigger work"
.I'd probably do most of my shooting with standard-pressure, ending each practice session with a cylinder of +P, plus accuracy-testing any proposed carry/defense load.
Quantrill
Member
I agree with those who have mentioned the 148gr wadcutter. This has to be handloaded as the factory loads are target loads that don't pack much punch, But with handloading up to 850-900fps, it is a fine SD load. Also the Keith SWC (Lyman#358429) 168gr load over a healthy dose of 2400 powder. I once spoke with Elmer Keith on the phone about "his" semi-wadcutters and hung up convinced that they will perform consistently lethal. Quantrill
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