230therapy
Member
Here's a good example of what Walkalong is talking about:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2006/04/27/reloading-the-44-magnum/
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2006/04/27/reloading-the-44-magnum/
.41 Mag Association
- Thread starter 336A
- Start date
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Bingo. Velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory, and in truth, there is little difference in killing power between a given bullet at 1500fps and at 1200 fps...assuming that the bullet will reach the vitals at either velocity. It's long been my belief that if you need more lethality, what you need is more bullet rather than more speed...and practical experience bears this out.
Velocity is very nice for shooting any distance with handguns. I shoot at 100 yards quite a bit and like to shoot at 300 occasionally. Velocity really helps make hold over easier, but at the price of recoil. I still like shooting 255 Gr bullets at low velocity in my S&W in .45 Colt at 100 yards, but I have to hold over well over the target. Same for .45 ACP. I like the bang..............................thud. 
Light weight high velocity bullets make hitting at long distance easier, but would not be much good for deer sized game, IMHO.
Light weight high velocity bullets make hitting at long distance easier, but would not be much good for deer sized game, IMHO.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Concur, Walkalong. For hunting, I like a bullet that will shoot through and through on a broadside shot, and traverse 75% of the animal on a frontal or quartering shot. a 250-grain
.44 or .45 caliber bullet at a thousand or so fps will do that on the average whitetail out to about 50 yards...which is my limit. At least, it was when I was still actively hunting. Bumping up to 1250 fps didn't seem to kill'em any deader or any quicker.
When Uncle Elmer lobbied for the .44 "Special" Magnum. His criteria was a 250-grain SWC loaded to about 1300 fps. He got a 240/1450. (Remington loaded hotter than the Grand Old Man of pressure.) The lead SWC was a gas-checked bullet, by the way...and that ammunition was hot. I have some of it, along with some of the old lot .357 Magnum lead SWC. The modern loadings bring both calibers down a good bit.
As for the .41 Magnum...Many have said that they don't see the need for it when the .44 Magnum is available. I say that...with the .41 Magnum being available...there's no need for the .43....ooops! I mean the .44 Magnum. Actually, it's a .429 Magnum...but I ain't gonna pick nits.
.44 or .45 caliber bullet at a thousand or so fps will do that on the average whitetail out to about 50 yards...which is my limit. At least, it was when I was still actively hunting. Bumping up to 1250 fps didn't seem to kill'em any deader or any quicker.
When Uncle Elmer lobbied for the .44 "Special" Magnum. His criteria was a 250-grain SWC loaded to about 1300 fps. He got a 240/1450. (Remington loaded hotter than the Grand Old Man of pressure.) The lead SWC was a gas-checked bullet, by the way...and that ammunition was hot. I have some of it, along with some of the old lot .357 Magnum lead SWC. The modern loadings bring both calibers down a good bit.
As for the .41 Magnum...Many have said that they don't see the need for it when the .44 Magnum is available. I say that...with the .41 Magnum being available...there's no need for the .43....ooops! I mean the .44 Magnum. Actually, it's a .429 Magnum...but I ain't gonna pick nits.
I'm going to shift gears here and take this in another direction. I just got done loading up some more .41 ammo with the popular 8.5gr Unique and 215gr SWC. Afterwards I was thinking about the dreaded "What if " question
I have a very big soft spot for two cartridges, and I got to thinking (here it comes) what if I had to settle for only one cartridge
First is the .38 SPL and the S&W M10 4" no thanks to someone else where known as bmcgilvray, he has really shown me and others what is possible with the great .38 SPL and the classic S&W M10. I really like this combo as the M10 just feels great in the hand and it is a great vehicle for the .38 SPL in its' many forms. As has been shown many times the simple yet elegant M10 is accurate and allows the .38 SPL to really stretch its' legs out. In many ways the .38 SPL and the S&W combo can in all reality probably accomplish 95% of what needs being done with a handgun. The economics of this cartridge is another big plus that just can't be ignored along with the plethora of accessories that are ut there for cheap too.
Now here is where my dilemma really starts. Ever since I pulled the trigger on my fathers' S&W M58 .41 mag service revolver it was love at first trigger pull. After inheriting this fine revolver I ordered everthing I needed to reload for it. I was eleted at how accurate it is with 8.0gr of Unique and a 215gr SWC, I wished I saved the target but unfortuneately I did not. However I never felt comfortable shooting full power loads in this fine gun as I want to take care of it and not shoot it loose. This year as most are aware I finally purchased a Ruger BH .41 so I can use full power loads and not feel the least bit guilty, as I know this revolver will gobble em' up and beg for more. When I was shooting this revolver I was again reminded just how splendid this cartridge is and was rewarded with some very fine groups again with Unique and a 215gr SWC. I did shoot some full power loads with 2400 and 210gr Sierra and Hornady JHP bullets. But I feel that my general purpose load using Unique will do quite nicely for the majority of the time.
It is a very good load giveing more of a heavy push and a loud deep boom instead of the wicked crack and abrubpt recoil of the 2400 loads. I get a big grin everytime I send one of the big bullets down range. Sometimes the bigger bores just have their place. It would be just down right awful if I ever had to choose which one to keep between the two. They are both great cartridges and great revolvers, I just hope I never find myself in that situation.
I have a very big soft spot for two cartridges, and I got to thinking (here it comes) what if I had to settle for only one cartridge
First is the .38 SPL and the S&W M10 4" no thanks to someone else where known as bmcgilvray, he has really shown me and others what is possible with the great .38 SPL and the classic S&W M10. I really like this combo as the M10 just feels great in the hand and it is a great vehicle for the .38 SPL in its' many forms. As has been shown many times the simple yet elegant M10 is accurate and allows the .38 SPL to really stretch its' legs out. In many ways the .38 SPL and the S&W combo can in all reality probably accomplish 95% of what needs being done with a handgun. The economics of this cartridge is another big plus that just can't be ignored along with the plethora of accessories that are ut there for cheap too.Now here is where my dilemma really starts. Ever since I pulled the trigger on my fathers' S&W M58 .41 mag service revolver it was love at first trigger pull. After inheriting this fine revolver I ordered everthing I needed to reload for it. I was eleted at how accurate it is with 8.0gr of Unique and a 215gr SWC, I wished I saved the target but unfortuneately I did not. However I never felt comfortable shooting full power loads in this fine gun as I want to take care of it and not shoot it loose. This year as most are aware I finally purchased a Ruger BH .41 so I can use full power loads and not feel the least bit guilty, as I know this revolver will gobble em' up and beg for more. When I was shooting this revolver I was again reminded just how splendid this cartridge is and was rewarded with some very fine groups again with Unique and a 215gr SWC. I did shoot some full power loads with 2400 and 210gr Sierra and Hornady JHP bullets. But I feel that my general purpose load using Unique will do quite nicely for the majority of the time.
It is a very good load giveing more of a heavy push and a loud deep boom instead of the wicked crack and abrubpt recoil of the 2400 loads. I get a big grin everytime I send one of the big bullets down range. Sometimes the bigger bores just have their place. It would be just down right awful if I ever had to choose which one to keep between the two. They are both great cartridges and great revolvers, I just hope I never find myself in that situation.
LOLBELL
Member
Count me in. Was hunting some load data and got refered here. Found alot of good information here. Bought a Ruger Blackhawk with 6.5" barrel about a month ago. I've only shot a few factory loads while waiting on dies, bullets, and brass for handloads. Hopefully will have a few loaded up to shoot this week end. I have hard cast 215 SWC and Unique for starters. Gonna try 8 - 9 grains for first loads. Will post results after shooting.
Fellow at work asked me the other day what was the difference between a .41 and .44 Mag. I told him .410 vs .429. He said seriously, and I said yea, seriously, that's all. I told him if you want to get picky, the .44 can handle a bit heavier bullets and has more options in bullet selection.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I've gotten along nicely for years with two handgun powders. Unique and 2400. Recently, I started loading .38 Special again, so Bullseye has been re-added...but only because my Little Dandy powder measure won't drop Unique consistently for under 6 grains. I guess I could order a 125-grain bullet mould...but I won't.
And, don't go thinkin' that Unique can't produce some respectable velocities. I've driven my cast (RCBS) 210-grain bullet to 1200 fps from my 4.625 inch Blackhawk with Unique, and the empty cases all but fall out of the chambers. That'd be pretty good pig medicine in close cover.
And, don't go thinkin' that Unique can't produce some respectable velocities. I've driven my cast (RCBS) 210-grain bullet to 1200 fps from my 4.625 inch Blackhawk with Unique, and the empty cases all but fall out of the chambers. That'd be pretty good pig medicine in close cover.
Crazy Carl
Member
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2008
- Messages
- 121
Count me in!
Long time .41 fan, but only a recent .41 owner. Snagged this-
off GB a while back & am kicking myself for not getting both a .41 & a Ruger SA sooner.
I'm loading a few batches right now, ranging from 17 to 18gr of 2400 under a Dardas 215gr LSWC/Keith. Oughtta be fun & the most accurate of those loads will be going to the deer woods this year. Bud just got a chrono, so it'll be interesting to see how they're running.
Hey 'Tuner, Dardas does a 250gr .41 bullet? Only see 215s on their site.
For "factory" ammo, check out Georgia Arms. 210gr LSWCs at 800fps, for $25-ish per 50. Fun range load & best method of brass collection I can think of.
SBH Hunter & the 657 Lew Horton 6.5" hunter are on my short list, as is a Marlin 1894 FG.
Long time .41 fan, but only a recent .41 owner. Snagged this-
off GB a while back & am kicking myself for not getting both a .41 & a Ruger SA sooner.
I'm loading a few batches right now, ranging from 17 to 18gr of 2400 under a Dardas 215gr LSWC/Keith. Oughtta be fun & the most accurate of those loads will be going to the deer woods this year. Bud just got a chrono, so it'll be interesting to see how they're running.
Hey 'Tuner, Dardas does a 250gr .41 bullet? Only see 215s on their site.
For "factory" ammo, check out Georgia Arms. 210gr LSWCs at 800fps, for $25-ish per 50. Fun range load & best method of brass collection I can think of.
SBH Hunter & the 657 Lew Horton 6.5" hunter are on my short list, as is a Marlin 1894 FG.
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Bush Pilot
Member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 2,393
Nice gun Crazy Carl, let us know how it shoots.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Carl, I'm pretty sure that Dardas only offers the one bullet...probably because the market for heavier slugs is more of a specialty niche and he's determined that he couldn't sell enough of'em to justify the investment in moulds and sizing dies. The larger volume operations can do it. Maybe he'll expand his inventory once he gets a firmer foothold.
For those who haven't heard of Dardas bullets....they're very good. Dardas is one of the few commercial casters that have impressed me. If he continues to hold his quality to the standards that I saw in the sample that he sent to me, he should do very well.
For those who haven't heard of Dardas bullets....they're very good. Dardas is one of the few commercial casters that have impressed me. If he continues to hold his quality to the standards that I saw in the sample that he sent to me, he should do very well.
Crazy Carl
Member
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2008
- Messages
- 121
Shoots pretty dang well. This is my first SA revolver, so I'm adjusting to 'er. I'm no pistolero, but was keeping 6 of 6 rds inside a paper plate at 25yds, offhand.
With deer season approaching, I'll be spending plenty of time with 'er & tightening up my shooting a bit.
With deer season approaching, I'll be spending plenty of time with 'er & tightening up my shooting a bit.
Updated a few with new grips......
Click for my .41 Magnum Slideshow
Limited production stainless steel Ruger Blackhawk Bisley with 5.5" barrel.
Box Elder Burl grips by Tim's Workshop.
I swapped out the original rubber grips with an old pair of Jay Scott N frame zebra wood grips that I reworked to fit the Taurus grip tang.
Model 657-4 Classic Hunter II Power Port
1998 Lew Horton Distibutors Exclusive, 300 produced.
Ahrends Retro Combat grips
Model 657 with Herrett's grips.
KO
My .41 Magnum Slideshow
Click for my .41 Magnum Slideshow
Limited production stainless steel Ruger Blackhawk Bisley with 5.5" barrel.
Box Elder Burl grips by Tim's Workshop.
I swapped out the original rubber grips with an old pair of Jay Scott N frame zebra wood grips that I reworked to fit the Taurus grip tang.
Model 657-4 Classic Hunter II Power Port
1998 Lew Horton Distibutors Exclusive, 300 produced.
Ahrends Retro Combat grips
Model 657 with Herrett's grips.
KO
My .41 Magnum Slideshow
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Very nice Ko41. I have always always wondered how the .410" bore came to be. I have always read that Elmer Kieth and Bill Jordan wanted something close to .400", however I always wondered who decided to go with .410". Well I ran across a really interesting web site the other day that is a tribute to Elmer Kieth. It is chalked full of old articles that he wrote years ago. One of them is titled Elmer Kieth picks his "Favorite" handgun loads.
On pg 25 he states that it was Doug Hellstrom of S&W that picked .410" so it could not be chambered in old .41 Colt revolvers. So there it is that is why .410" was chosen rather than a .400" cartridge. Here is a link to the full article for all to read http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1969_01_Elmer_Keith_Favorite_Load.pdf
On pg 25 he states that it was Doug Hellstrom of S&W that picked .410" so it could not be chambered in old .41 Colt revolvers. So there it is that is why .410" was chosen rather than a .400" cartridge. Here is a link to the full article for all to read http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1969_01_Elmer_Keith_Favorite_Load.pdf
230therapy
Member
Better pictures of my Model 58:
I recieved my new copy of handloading magazine yesterday. Brian Pearce wrote a pretty in depth article about Alliants new Power Pro 300MP powder. This powder is slower than H110/296, and Lil gun but it does not require the use of a magnum primer for ignition. The velocities achieved in the .41 mag and the extreme spreads were impressive (very small) to say the least accuracy was reported as being very good too. Same goes for the .327, 357, .44 mag, and the .454 Casull. I just might have to give this powder a try in the future.
230therapy I that is a vey nice M58, I sure wish mine looked that nice.
230therapy I that is a vey nice M58, I sure wish mine looked that nice.
6.5 shooter
Member
I'm in... with 3 smith 57's and one black hawk. Did you know the 41 is still the most popular handgun!!
6.5 shooter
Member
In Alaska
Missionary
Member
Good morning & Welcome 6.5 Shooter.
I just noticed you did post #1 & #2 in the same breath. When we are up north there we drive out of Danville... Drive through / Salem off & on as we visit supporting churches.
Reading through the posts the caliber.41 goes farther back than some realise. First cartriges were for the .41 deringers (about 1870). Have a couple Colt revolvers in .41 Colt (Lightning & 1894). Never have had the funds at the right moment to snag a Colt 1873 model in 41 Colt. Many older fellers liked the 41 Colt because it fit in the smaler frame Colts but was sure more power than the 38 longs. Sadly Colt & S&W never came out with a medium frame 5 shot caliber .41 mag... Happily Taurus did. The 5 shot Titanium is one nice carry about revolver.
Mike in Peru
I just noticed you did post #1 & #2 in the same breath. When we are up north there we drive out of Danville... Drive through / Salem off & on as we visit supporting churches.
Reading through the posts the caliber.41 goes farther back than some realise. First cartriges were for the .41 deringers (about 1870). Have a couple Colt revolvers in .41 Colt (Lightning & 1894). Never have had the funds at the right moment to snag a Colt 1873 model in 41 Colt. Many older fellers liked the 41 Colt because it fit in the smaler frame Colts but was sure more power than the 38 longs. Sadly Colt & S&W never came out with a medium frame 5 shot caliber .41 mag... Happily Taurus did. The 5 shot Titanium is one nice carry about revolver.
Mike in Peru
motorcycle-charlie
Member
nice going 230, i keep seeing this picture around here. now a model 58 is high up on my list of wants right along with a model 13. i really like the blued fixed sight guns. the 58 being just above the 13 now because i really like the N frame.Better pictures of my Model 58:
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Those earlier cartridges bore weren't even close to the .41 Magnum in performance or dimensionally. The .41 Magnum, and its recent spinoff, the .41 Special...are true .410 caliber rounds.
The .41 Short Rimfire of the stackbarrel Derringer fame consisted of a heel based 130-grain .401 caliber bullet that hit a smokin' 425 fps from the little two shooters.
The .41 Long Colt...a heeled, hollow-based 200 grain bullet of .384 diameter was better...approximating the .41 Special's low end loadings at roughly 750 fps.
Missionary
Member
Good evening
Interesting that my 41 Colt loads a .406 heeled cast bullet and shoots it just fine. Those HB bullets were a generic solution to a sitiation of heeled bullets picking up dirt on the outside lube.
Heeled bullet molds are still available on the markets that range from .403 to .406 .
Mike in Peru
Interesting that my 41 Colt loads a .406 heeled cast bullet and shoots it just fine. Those HB bullets were a generic solution to a sitiation of heeled bullets picking up dirt on the outside lube.
Heeled bullet molds are still available on the markets that range from .403 to .406 .
Mike in Peru
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yep. Your .406 diameter bullets came later in a bump up to bore diameter in the attempt to aid accuracy. The earlier bullets were .384-.386...depending on who made them...and they were hollow-based, like Minie' bullet. The gases expanded the base to engage the rifling and seal the large bore. Unfired bullets would literally fall through the barrels.
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